Multiple Attackers-Fantasy or Reality?

[MJS]

Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.

The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.

So, here are the questions:

1) Is it possible?

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

 

[Sukerkin]

From my experience, the answers I can give are:

1) Yes

2) You utilise the fact that the only person you have to co-ordinate with is you. In my case I used a restraining lock on one attacker to help fend off another whilst I dealt with a third (leg break). Then I turned the lock into a break and made a final use of that fellow as a shield whilst I ran like mad. The precis is if you can avoid being mobbed to the ground then you can use lack of co-operation amongst your attackers to your benefit.

3) N/A

4) I don't think this is particularly relevant, in my personal case I was training in Lau Gar Kung Fu but I firmly believe that any art you are competent in will serve you just as well.

5) I can see why some would feel that an equaliser would be of benefit. Indeed, it may well cause the attackers to back off enough for you to escape. However, unless it approximates a weapon you are trained in I reckon you'd be better off not limiting your options and staying empty-handed - that's where the majority of you training hours have been spent after all.

 

[Steel Tiger]

First let me say I, like Sukerkin, think it is very possible to defend yourself against multiple attackers.

2) You utilise the fact that the only person you have to co-ordinate with is you. In my case I used a restraining lock on one attacker to help fend off another whilst I dealt with a third (leg break). Then I turned the lock into a break and made a final use of that fellow as a shield whilst I ran like mad. The precis is if you can avoid being mobbed to the ground then you can use lack of co-operation amongst your attackers to your benefit.

This is a very good point. I found that I was following the advice of Musashi without knowing it. By using qinna and interposing one between me and the other (there were only two) I was able to shield myself and deal with one (broken wrist or dislocated elbow, not sure which but it hurt him) at the same time. With his mate screaming in pain the other guy was not so keen anymore and I was able to make my escape.

I was using qinna mainly because I train with it extensively and have found it works almost all the time. I suppose that all that circling in bagua was being used subconsciously as I endeavoured to keep the my victim between me and the other guy.

An equaliser? I would happily pick up something to swing if I was comfortable with it. Knives are becoming a real big problem down here but that degree of escalation really pisses me off (guns are much less of a problem).

 

[MA-Caver]

Multiple attackers can be a reality. About 25 years ago I was in St. Louis MO. with friend who was attending a class reunion of sorts. During a lull we went out for a bite to eat on foot. Bad timing as it was on a Sunday afternoon and pretty much everything downtown or near the river was closed. Still we found something and ate and headed back to the hotel (Sheraton I think it was). Enroute we passed a group of about 8 boys and I noticed half a block later they turned around and started following us.
Short story: they chased us, separated us (unwillingly), my friend made it into the hotel I got twarted and was chased by 6 around the building and was cut off on the far side by the remaining two intending to cut me off (successfully)... put my back against the wall and had them around me in a half circle. Fortunately they all didn't attack at once and I fought off and hurt two of the boldest ones that came in close before one of the hotel staff came out and hollered that he called the police and to get away from me, they bolted and ran, got my watch... that was all. Police caught 5 of them and I didn't/couldn't press charges because I would have to stay in town for court and I was only passing through. The city of St. Louis wouldn't accommodate me despite my being attacked in their town, (ya I know, not their fault, just my dumb luck being selected out of the herd by a pack of hyenas...). No weapons, nothing fancy just what training I had at the time and a lot of anger because I got trapped in a bad position.
Still if anything was handy I would've grabbed it and used it. Oh my yes.
At the time my art studies was Wing Chun & TKD. Used mostly the WC as my back was against the wall (not flush mind you, about less than a foot and a half) and my eyes were trying to keep 7 guys in view at the same time in a 180 degree arc. Not easy. Scary situation. Also very fortunate that they were all teenagers (not one was over 17) ... had they been older (wiser) I don't think I'd be here.

 

[Drac]

Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.

1) Is it possible?

Yes, it's very possible.. Punks in a group feel no fear and will try anything

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

front snap kicks to shins or knees

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

See answer for #1..

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

I don't believe one discipline will be better that another, it will ALL depend on the practioneer and his/her ability to deliver non-stop techniques..

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

ANYTHING I have I will use..My preference is for my PR-24 which is always in my car..

 

[Rich Parsons]

Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.

The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.

So, here are the questions:

Based upon experience my answers are the following:

1) Is it possible?

Yes it is possible to fight and survive.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

Movement such that you limit those who can gain access to you at one time. Do not get tied up. Use techniques that are short and cause lots of pain and or damage, so people will think twice about coming back.

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

See above

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

Any art could fail in this endeavor. I believe that it really is the individual.

But those that deal with Wrestling and or pinning only are in trouble based upon my experience. Once on the ground you may be able to tie the guy up and cause him pain (* if he is not on some drug that prohibits pain from registering - been there done that trying to be nice and not strike while helping a police officer who was having problems, not good *). The Friends of the one on the ground are now able to kick you or to knife you or hit you or what have it.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

I would use what ever is available. If there was a window that I knew was part of a security system I would have no problem setting it off with contact of breaking to get an audible or even silent alarm to start the process. Personally, I like the audible as then those involved hear it and think about leaving.

Would I use a weapon. Yes I would use a weapon. The issue is legal in many situations as in if you go first are you now the agressor? But, given that I prefer blunt objects, I would use them. I would also use a knife or gun or bottle or even a tuna fish can if it was available. I carry pens with me, as well as training knives many times. These would be used.

I also have no problem with hurting the first one so bad they need to be in the hospital for days. Why? Because I am afraid. I am really afraid of spending those days in the hospital if I am lucky. If I am not lucky then I will not be able to spend any days at all anywhere. Hurt one bad and fast and the others think twice. In particular if you take out the leader or an instigator or one of the "big" guys and I use big in quotes to represent that this could be anyone for any size, but the closest is many times someone who looks for the sucker punch on others, to get things rolling.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes it is possible and there are many people alive today because they did the right thing at the right time.

Every situation will vary and so there simply is know correct answers. All we can do is train hard and hopefully in the moment our training will take over and keep us safe.

 

[MJS]

Gotta reply to my own thread right!

1) Is it possible?

Yes. I do feel that it is something that needs to be trained, just like any other aspect of an art.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

Considering that they've already up'd the odds, I'd say that anything is up for use. If possible, doing your best to position one in front of the other. If its possible to get ahold of one, momentarily using him as a shield may be another option. Causing one person extreme pain may be enough to persuade the others to back off. In a situation like this, I'd say going with the most brutal techniques you have is the best bet.

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

I dont know how every art trains multiple attack defense, so I cant really say what art is best per se, but I'd tend to lean towards a stand up art first, grappling art second. Rolling on the ground isn't the best option, but as I said in #2, if its possible to grab ahold of one, you could inflict some pain.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

Absolutely!! Like I said, they already increased the odds against you, so why not use something?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Is it possible to defend aginst multiple attackers? Depends. Do you mean survive? Then of course. The trick is to run. Is it possible to beat up mutliple attackers? Maybe. It all depends on HOW you try to defend yourself. But, I'll get to this latter.

No techniques or concepts speciaficly. I have seen some styles that include special attacks for multiple attackers. Not sure how well they would work. I have noticed (from various sources) that the three best ideas are:
1, RUN! Discretion is the better part of valor. If nothing else, no one runs at the same speed. So, you can wheel around and knock one around, then run some more.
2, Keep them in a line. If you keep one between the others, you might stand more of chance. If nothign else, you could keep one at bay for a little bit. Try to get one in something that can be leathel. Then say "alright, back off or he gets it!" just be willing to actually give it to him.
3, Grab something big and heavy then, swing. Well, really any weapon is ok for this. Basicly, just try to kill something (note the wording). If you cann't get a weapon, well... good luck.

i can sotra answer this. people will try to almost a "kill Bill" thing. you do that, you will die. anythign dumb like that, and you will die.

Best... ANBO-JITSU! For those of who don't watch Star Trek, my point is there is no best. With a little research, you could easily find were your art adresses multiple attackers. This could be in a Kata, a Drill/Aikido-like technique, or a shadow boxing combo that will work. There is a reason I like to say that Kata is your Martial God.

Yes.

Other things I wish to adress:
Going to the ground. If at all possible, NO. You are to easy a target on the ground. However, if you are one of the attackers, you want to go there. Therefore, as the defender, you still need to be familiar with what to do in this situation. Not to mention many ground fighting techniques can be appled to weapon defense, or used to restrain someone to do the good old "back off or he gets it!"

Training for multiple attackers. Work combos that can be applied to this situation. Go running alot. Work drills that can be applied to this situation. Sparring with mutliple attackers. In short, the same way as all your other situational defenses.

 

[jks9199]

The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.

So, here are the questions:

1) Is it possible?

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

1) Yes, it's possible to defend against multiple attackers. It's not easy, and there's a very good chance you'll get hurt (especiallly if they're skilled or able to coordinate their attacks), but it can be done.

2) Depends on a lot of things, but the most basic idea is don't get so tied up with one guy that you're meat for the others; you can also use movement to try to keep them in each other's way. Basically, it's too broad for me to try to write here...

3) Irrelevant; it is possible. It's not easy. You're likely to get hurt. But it's possible.

4) I'd say grappling arts are the least suited as a general rule, simply because they tie you up with one guy. Striking arts are probably better suited... but there's probably also plenty of room for a compromise/blend approach. It's not the art -- it's what you choose to do with it.

5) HELL ****ING YES! My first option if I have to fight more than one person is a gun. Failing that... anything else available works! Even the odds... then tilt them in your favor!

 

[qi-tah]

Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.

The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.

So, here are the questions:

1) Is it possible?

To defend against multiple attackers? For sure.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

I'm with Sukerkin and ST on this one. Use one as a sheild or use yr footwork to arrange yr attackers to yr own advantage ("lining them up") Most of the time attacks will be very quick and chaotic, so i'd tend to keep moving and strike on passing as opposed to gripping and inflicting damage. If you can tangle them up with each other then you have a good chance at a free shot or two before you take off.

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

I don't really know enough to answer this question fully. Ba gua and Aikido are supposed to be effective systems against multiple attackers. But then so is playing rugby union!

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

Yes, though i wouldn't show it to them first in the hope of getting them to back off. I feel that this would make them spread out and become more coordinated in their attacks. But if i had a small screwdriver, or a short length of metal or wood, or my bike helmet on me, i wouldn't hesitate to give them a crack on the way through. The down side is that gives them a little more purchase to grab you with when things get close, not to metion the change in the stakes if they manage to wrest the weapon from you.

 

[exile]

From my experience, the answers I can give are:

1) Yes

2) You utilise the fact that the only person you have to co-ordinate with is you. In my case I used a restraining lock on one attacker to help fend off another whilst I dealt with a third (leg break). Then I turned the lock into a break and made a final use of that fellow as a shield whilst I ran like mad. The precis is if you can avoid being mobbed to the ground then you can use lack of co-operation amongst your attackers to your benefit.

3) N/A

4) I don't think this is particularly relevant, in my personal case I was training in Lau Gar Kung Fu but I firmly believe that any art you are competent in will serve you just as well.

5) I can see why some would feel that an equaliser would be of benefit. Indeed, it may well cause the attackers to back off enough for you to escape. However, unless it approximates a weapon you are trained in I reckon you'd be better off not limiting your options and staying empty-handed - that's where the majority of you training hours have been spent after all.

I have never been in this postion, at least not where I was empty-handed. But Sukerkin's experience matches that of others who I've known who did have to deal with two or more attackers, and dovetails with the pattern that I've noticed they all have in common: that yes, it is possible to deal with multiple attackers if—the big question—you can keep the close-contact fighting to one-on-one. Find the weak link, close the range with him fast, get him between you and the others, or finish him off and break out through the gap thus created. You can't let two of them into close range with you, striking at you simultaneously. That seems to be how the people I knew who came out in one piece from group attacks in New York when I lived there did it. It didn't happen to all that many people—the City wasn't a particularly safe place in those days but as big cities go it was a lot safer than many other places on the east coast such as Baltimore, Philadelphia and D.C.—but there were a lot of tough kids who travelled in packs, and things did happen from time to time...

 

[MaartenSFS]

1) Is it possible?

Absobloodylutely. Is it probable? Not very. If they have weapons (and you don't) AND/OR you are with a loved one that is not martially able... You're pretty much ****ed.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

Striking arts/stand-up grappling. There are some excellent Qinna/Shuaijiao hand/leg combination techniques that are superb for this sort of situation. Follow these up with elbow strikes to places that hurt.

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

For most people it is impossible. We train to not be one of them.

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

I agree about the grappling, but I would limit that notion to body-to-body techniques (I.E. throws). I also think that Taekwondo and Wushu would be useless (Good TKD is no longer TKD - FLAME ON!!!).

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

5) HELL ****ING YES!

I am never without my "negtiation stick" or some other tool of this trade.

 

[exile]

I also think that Taekwondo and Wushu would be useless (Good TKD is no longer TKD - FLAME ON!!!).

I'm sorry, but you've lost me here... can you paraphrase the bolded part less cryptically? I have an idea of what this could mean, but I'd rather not attribute ideas to you that might not reflect your actual intention.

 

[MaartenSFS]

I'm sorry, but you've lost me here... can you paraphrase the bolded part less cryptically? I have an idea of what this could mean, but I'd rather not attribute ideas to you that might not reflect your actual intention.

No, I'm sure you read correctly. I am an arsehole, after all. One that believes in what he says. My meaning was that if it's good (I.E. combat effective), it cannot be TKD, which is quite the opposite. Anyways, this little side remark was hardly the focus of my post, so just let by-gones be by-gones.

 

[tntma12]

Yes defending yourself against multiple attackers is quite possible and probable, depending on your training. I would agree that grappling would probably not be the best approach, but I feel that any martial art, including TKD would be benificial. There are many arts as well that would teach you to defend against weapons as well as multiple attackers. Aikido, though it takes a long time to become efficient, is great for both. I do believe it would depend on the instructor, not the style to prepare you for this potential situation.

 

[Mr. E]

Dealing with multiple attackers is possible.

The thing is, you have to lower your expectations and not expect to beat all of them like a drum. If you define being able to get home in one piece as a victory, then you can win in a situation involving multiple opponents.

It has been my observation that many people who train in a "defeat the other guy or nothing" philosophy just can't seem to get it through their head that people do not have to send anyone else to the hospital to gain victory by getting home without injury. To some folks (not all) you either defeat the other side or they defeat you. So they preach that nothing can be done about multiple attackers so you might as well just concentrate on being the best against one and be ready to kiss yourself goodbye should you meet more than one attacker. In my experience, the most vocal of these folks tend to be very competitive, need to prove themselves and probably are uncomfortable with the idea of running from a fight when given an opening.

 

[Flatlander]

1) Is it possible?

I think it's possible. Obviously, if the escape option is not viable, one would need to believe it's possible, wouldn't one? :lol2:

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

Keeping in mind that I'd never try to predict specifics, I would certainly do my best to try to control the range, maintaining distance until a moment of my choosing. I'd try to stay very mobile, making it challenging for all to 'hone in' on me. I'd want to be cautious of becoming attached to any one of them for an extended period of time, preferring to strike and move. My feeling is that anything that slows me down, such as one downed attacker on the ground grabbing my foot, is a very dangerous liability. Mobility would be my greatest asset....

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

I don't. I think that there are very likely a host of various arts that would teach appropriate skills. Odds of success would be influenced more by mindset and training than knowledge of a specific technique or this punch vs. that punch. Aside from that - as I have not trained extensively in other arts, I am largely ignorant as to their relative qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Given that, I'd hate to make a faulty assumption. Somebody might take offense.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)

No doubt about it. My very first instinct would be to scan the area to see what I could get my hands on. I don't tend to carry any weaponry on me - perhaps, if I had time, I'd remove my belt. Of course, that would mean I'd need to abandon my pants..... :lol2:

 

[CuongNhuka]

My meaning was that if it's good (I.E. combat effective), it cannot be TKD, which is quite the opposite.

I'll wait for one of the actual Tae Kwon Do guys here to point out how wrong you are. When ever your ready Exile.

 

[Kacey]

No, I'm sure you read correctly. I am an arsehole, after all. One that believes in what he says. My meaning was that if it's good (I.E. combat effective), it cannot be TKD, which is quite the opposite. Anyways, this little side remark was hardly the focus of my post, so just let by-gones be by-gones.

I'm sorry you've not seen truly good TKD - which is extremely combat effective. As far as letting bygones be bygones - IMHO the above was hardly an apology, and while you may not have intended it to be the focus of your post, I can assure you that quite a few people will be focusing on it.

To return to the topic at hand, which is multiple attackers, I won't bother to repeat the truly excellent responses which have already been posted - but I will add, as an addendum to running and taking on opponents 1-on-1 whenever possible, that staying out the middle of the group is generally advisable.