Muay Chaiya, Muay Boran
- Thread starter Ianchaiya
- Start date
You should check this conversation and ask around, as you are in Bangkok you should get different opinions.
Personally, I would drop it and find a muay thai camp.
http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/thaiboxing-kickboxing/36008-chaiya-grape-kool-aid.html
Personally, I would drop it and find a muay thai camp.
http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/thaiboxing-kickboxing/36008-chaiya-grape-kool-aid.html
- Thread Starter
- #3
i personally find that quite insulting and shows a rather limited understanding and most definitely a lack of actually chaiya experience. what hes ranting about seems to be muay boran, which is nowadays being taught as a system in itself rather than the umbrella term much like 'kung fu'. and if that is the case, i share the frustration cos muay chaiya is muay boran but in the sense that its an old fighting style, not muay boran as a system of fighting (which as i said is modern creation and damaging to actually muay boran).
u say personally, but have u trained with kru mud, kru lek or kru praeng in bkk? none of them will say its better than muaythai. muaythai is ring sport, muay chaiya is a martial art developed in and for use in war. and yes no one fights with it, cos no one has yet to train is such a way as to be able to use it. ignorance and inexperiece and keyboard warriors are the enemy of martial arts such as chaiya, which is almost lost. we should be celebrating and bringing it back. its not ring sport and shouldnt be compared to one.
come train with kru mud, if u hate it and think it sucks, so be it. at least give something a go before u knock it. i think tkd has very limited real life application. i would never. i do however see the benefits it has and my gf is a black belt in tkd. its not for me but i appreciate it.
god people like frustrate me, and they should anyone who repects martial arts for what they are.
before i am accused of being part of the cult, i like muay thai, but the purely hard style lack of martial aspects left me seeking more. so far chaiya has been filling the gap mauy thai couldnt fill. also there are loads of rubbish muaythai 'teachers' out there. chaiya has only 3 certified teachers in the WORLD. now that's quality control.
forgive my frustration.
u say personally, but have u trained with kru mud, kru lek or kru praeng in bkk? none of them will say its better than muaythai. muaythai is ring sport, muay chaiya is a martial art developed in and for use in war. and yes no one fights with it, cos no one has yet to train is such a way as to be able to use it. ignorance and inexperiece and keyboard warriors are the enemy of martial arts such as chaiya, which is almost lost. we should be celebrating and bringing it back. its not ring sport and shouldnt be compared to one.
come train with kru mud, if u hate it and think it sucks, so be it. at least give something a go before u knock it. i think tkd has very limited real life application. i would never. i do however see the benefits it has and my gf is a black belt in tkd. its not for me but i appreciate it.
god people like frustrate me, and they should anyone who repects martial arts for what they are.
before i am accused of being part of the cult, i like muay thai, but the purely hard style lack of martial aspects left me seeking more. so far chaiya has been filling the gap mauy thai couldnt fill. also there are loads of rubbish muaythai 'teachers' out there. chaiya has only 3 certified teachers in the WORLD. now that's quality control.
forgive my frustration.
I would like to know who the three certified Chaiya teachers are and by whom they were certified.
There are way more teachers than the three you mentioned, most of whom trained with kru Tong who passed away without naming successors. So again I would like who these three teachers are, if possible.
I have trained in Thailand on and off since 2005 and I heard all the stories from different people, believe me.
I started training in Chaiya four years ago but I dropped it after a while because I could see only a limited use, and that coming from a boxing perspective because that was my background.
I also met kru mud three years ago and he gave free lessons to promote his chaiya, then again
I saw the same empty drills practiced and their little function, so that was not what I was looking for.
Chaiya wasn't used in war or in the battlefield just as muay boran wasn't used. What was used in war were weapon systems and the hand to hand system directly derived from their use-which is still being investigated and researched to say how little is known or better, shown about it. Muay Chaiya is a system but it was created later after the war ended and techniques were added later, one after the other, so they don't spring from the battlefield.
Muay Thai has a strong martial aspect, these guys train very hard all day, are humble and respectful towards the art and teachers. If that is not martial then what is? Then if there are loudmouths as you say-I am sure mostly from foreigners-then they are directly and quicly shut down.
There are way more teachers than the three you mentioned, most of whom trained with kru Tong who passed away without naming successors. So again I would like who these three teachers are, if possible.
I have trained in Thailand on and off since 2005 and I heard all the stories from different people, believe me.
I started training in Chaiya four years ago but I dropped it after a while because I could see only a limited use, and that coming from a boxing perspective because that was my background.
I also met kru mud three years ago and he gave free lessons to promote his chaiya, then again
I saw the same empty drills practiced and their little function, so that was not what I was looking for.
Chaiya wasn't used in war or in the battlefield just as muay boran wasn't used. What was used in war were weapon systems and the hand to hand system directly derived from their use-which is still being investigated and researched to say how little is known or better, shown about it. Muay Chaiya is a system but it was created later after the war ended and techniques were added later, one after the other, so they don't spring from the battlefield.
Muay Thai has a strong martial aspect, these guys train very hard all day, are humble and respectful towards the art and teachers. If that is not martial then what is? Then if there are loudmouths as you say-I am sure mostly from foreigners-then they are directly and quicly shut down.
- Thread Starter
- #6
the three grandmasters are Kru Mud, Kru Lek and Kru Praeng. I guess your experience wasnt quite the same as mine then. though that doesnt warrent righting off the art completely. if i were to right off karate, tkd or another much more established art, i would get a hurl of abuse.
respect the art, if you are a true martial artist you would give it that much.
respect the art, if you are a true martial artist you would give it that much.
This reminds me of a Youtube Comment i read once.
"Aikido is like the Joke of the Martial Arts World."*
Now, i know its a singular example, but its a Subjective Conclusion.
You have a Bad Experience with a Martial Art, therefore you can barely help but be SOMEWHAT Biased against it, due to YOUR Experience.
That, or you, personally, Dislike it.
Then theres Branching. Practitioners of a Style who go and make their Own Variants, whilst carrying the very same name.
Muay Thai is actually a good example - Some places are closer to just being Striking Gyms with Sparring, as oppose to teaching any Ring-Style whatsoever.
Some Instructers emphasise Power over Speed, or take out the Power and gain Speed, or emphasise Cardio over Conditioning, or any Variation you choose.
The bottom line is, dont Generalise things.
Theres a chance you just have bad reference Material, which may well not be your fault.
And you dont have to Like the other Style. Your free to Dislike any Martial Art or Style.
But that doesnt need to make it a Bad Style.
Just my Contribution.
*You may be thinking, 'how is this relevant'?
Simple. This Individual thinks Aikido is a Joke, and has for a long time. A Couple of People Agree with him. He builds on that conclusion subconsciously over time, until he Generalises that Conclusion to encompass not only his Opinion, but a belief in the Inferiority of the Style.
It isnt the same as whats happened here, but its the same Cycle. Just different outcomes.
"Aikido is like the Joke of the Martial Arts World."*
Now, i know its a singular example, but its a Subjective Conclusion.
You have a Bad Experience with a Martial Art, therefore you can barely help but be SOMEWHAT Biased against it, due to YOUR Experience.
That, or you, personally, Dislike it.
Then theres Branching. Practitioners of a Style who go and make their Own Variants, whilst carrying the very same name.
Muay Thai is actually a good example - Some places are closer to just being Striking Gyms with Sparring, as oppose to teaching any Ring-Style whatsoever.
Some Instructers emphasise Power over Speed, or take out the Power and gain Speed, or emphasise Cardio over Conditioning, or any Variation you choose.
The bottom line is, dont Generalise things.
Theres a chance you just have bad reference Material, which may well not be your fault.
And you dont have to Like the other Style. Your free to Dislike any Martial Art or Style.
But that doesnt need to make it a Bad Style.
Just my Contribution.
*You may be thinking, 'how is this relevant'?
Simple. This Individual thinks Aikido is a Joke, and has for a long time. A Couple of People Agree with him. He builds on that conclusion subconsciously over time, until he Generalises that Conclusion to encompass not only his Opinion, but a belief in the Inferiority of the Style.
It isnt the same as whats happened here, but its the same Cycle. Just different outcomes.
- Thread Starter
- #9
Thank you very much for that balanced and unbiased comment. i thought i was fighting my corner all on my own.
"The bottom line is, dont Generalise things.
Theres a chance you just have bad reference Material, which may well not be your fault.
And you dont have to Like the other Style. Your free to Dislike any Martial Art or Style.
But that doesnt need to make it a Bad Style."
I agree with that paragraphy completely. karate and tkd wasnt for me. but im not about to say they are based on lies and useless (not assuming anyone as said as much).
Thank you again, Cyriacus.
"The bottom line is, dont Generalise things.
Theres a chance you just have bad reference Material, which may well not be your fault.
And you dont have to Like the other Style. Your free to Dislike any Martial Art or Style.
But that doesnt need to make it a Bad Style."
I agree with that paragraphy completely. karate and tkd wasnt for me. but im not about to say they are based on lies and useless (not assuming anyone as said as much).
Thank you again, Cyriacus.
Good point Cyriacus but off topic. I didn't bash muay chaiya per se, I just said that I tried it and draw my own conclusions from my own perspective. The style has a long history and as pointed out in the martialtalk link I shared it was tested in bareknuckle competitions. That was 100 years ago and more and things have changed.
Karate and TKD (and their sub-styles) have solid lineage and those who teach are recognized and certified by their teachers and so on so it's easy to see the genealogy with authorizations and so on.
This said, if you are eager to discuss muay chaiya, Ianchaiya, it's fine for me. Because if you say that kru mud , kru praeng and kru lek are the only teachers authorized to teach muay chaiya in the world, then I would like to know who gave them that credential.
As far as respecting the arts you can be sure I do so, what I don't respect selfserving empty politics and false statements that give a bad name and reputation to the arts (and with this I am not talking about you).
Karate and TKD (and their sub-styles) have solid lineage and those who teach are recognized and certified by their teachers and so on so it's easy to see the genealogy with authorizations and so on.
This said, if you are eager to discuss muay chaiya, Ianchaiya, it's fine for me. Because if you say that kru mud , kru praeng and kru lek are the only teachers authorized to teach muay chaiya in the world, then I would like to know who gave them that credential.
As far as respecting the arts you can be sure I do so, what I don't respect selfserving empty politics and false statements that give a bad name and reputation to the arts (and with this I am not talking about you).
It isnt Off Topic at all, My Good Man.
You said youd Tried and Viewed it, and Didnt Like what you Found.
I was Clarifying that there are other Factors which could be Relevant to that Outcome.
Hence my Addendum at the End, that the Situations werent the Same - Just the Logic Chain Pertaining to the Opinion.
Theres also the Possibility that our other Gentleman here, has had a Good Experience with it, and that many other Outlets have Slid into Fault.
This is Perhaps Merely a Matter of the Way you Communicated your Idealogy - And if you Wanted, I could also Praise some of what you Stated.
Your Initial Response could be Interprited as somewhat Hostile, even if it wasnt Intended to be.
Perspective
Yes it was my own opinion, without bashing the whole style. This especially in light of the old teachers who who are still teaching it in silence and integrity. So I should have rather have said that from my perpective "the chaiya I tried wasn't good for what I was looking for and expected" and it still my opinion, but better phrased.
Yes - It makes a far clearer point, since it doesnt come accross as an outright Negative.
destructautomaton
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Its an opinion, an opinion can be what it is. If you read across the boards over years, you will see chaiya guys one after another digging a hole from themselves. The negativity mostly from them towards others and over time it seems it bounced back against them. I think also ian just started chaiya as he said so it takes a time to understand the style and what he believes is wonderful is not wonderful to others. you gotta have thick skin to do martial arts or else maybe tennis or something like that is better.
fede said he tried it and it didnt work for him ---how is that negative?its called honesty.
fede said he tried it and it didnt work for him ---how is that negative?its called honesty.
Its Perspective.
The First Response, and the way the Second was Conveyed, could be interprited in many ways. The First, for example, pretty much says, "Go Learn Muay Thai Instead". Now, 'I' know that perhaps isnt the Intention. Which was the whole point of my responses - To maintain a Civil Chat, without Misconveyances of Information
destructautomaton
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so what? its an opinon. If someone doesnt like chaiya, they dont like chaiya. I dont understand what you are saying or trying to push through here.
Im not trying to push anything through - The Gentleman Fede has Approved Fairly of what i was saying, and seems to see where i was coming from about how things might be interprited by others.
I dont see the Problem.
And i Specifically said, that you dont need to Like any given Style. Your free to Dislike any given Martial Art. Or Style.
destructautomaton
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this forum is an excellent forum. there are some high level people on here so i dont get your policing of this thread comes from. I dont care for chaiya after training it in thailand but so what i dont like tons of things.
- Thread Starter
- #19
im brand new to these forums, as for digging holes for themselves, im not those chaiya practioners.
im me. and i came here to discuss my art with people who were open-minded and willing to discuss it with me. i cant be held at fault for others. maybe they themselves were ignorant. a lot of people who do a less well practised martial art such as jkd develop a bit of a chip on their shoulder (i know i did 8 years ago) but why hold me personally responsable for it? im not finding myself under attack for wanting to discuss chaiya which wasnt the aim of me joining these forums. i was hoping to generate interest. hate me and hate chaiya if it makes you feel better.
im me. and i came here to discuss my art with people who were open-minded and willing to discuss it with me. i cant be held at fault for others. maybe they themselves were ignorant. a lot of people who do a less well practised martial art such as jkd develop a bit of a chip on their shoulder (i know i did 8 years ago) but why hold me personally responsable for it? im not finding myself under attack for wanting to discuss chaiya which wasnt the aim of me joining these forums. i was hoping to generate interest. hate me and hate chaiya if it makes you feel better.
I say stick with the forum and do not be perturbed. I say appreciate that your opinions are as valid as the opinions of anyone else, and that others are as valid as yours.
If you are happy yourself with Chaiya then that is the only important thing.
I hope you can take just a little time Ianchaiya and see that nobody is directing any attack at you personally. Likewise, it is up to you to decide whether to defend your style or not. You are never forced to post a reply and yet you are always at liberty to state your opinion. As are others.
Personally, I would welcome hearing some of your training experiences shared.
Take care, Janna.
If you are happy yourself with Chaiya then that is the only important thing.
I hope you can take just a little time Ianchaiya and see that nobody is directing any attack at you personally. Likewise, it is up to you to decide whether to defend your style or not. You are never forced to post a reply and yet you are always at liberty to state your opinion. As are others.
Personally, I would welcome hearing some of your training experiences shared.
Take care, Janna.
