Well put, destructo and Jenna, nobody directed attacks at Ianchaiya and Chaiya yet the response was as if this is what had happened. It was only a personal opinion-a badly phrased one at first. I too would like a discussion on chaiya, that's why I asked who accredited kru praeng, kru lek and kru mat as the ONLY teachers allowed to teach Chaiya in the world. That's a pretty solid statement so there has to be solid proof for that.
Muay Chaiya, Muay Boran
- Thread starter Ianchaiya
- Start date
i didnt mean to imply they were the only teacher ALLOWED to teach. anyone can teach what they want! but they are recognised as the only three masters who have direct lineage from the the founders and who teaches chaiya as it existed then, without alterations. others, such as the Muay Sangha school teach chaiya but its been altered quite a lot.
i may be wrong, but my thai sources confirm. they are the only three teachers who teach classic, unaltered, muay chaiya.
as for who accredited them, i will find out that info if it's vital. as for kru mud, he started muay boran (inc. weapon forms) when he was 13 with kru nakchai jimet whom he studied with for seven years. then he studied with kru tonglor for three years when he was about 20. he then studied with his uncle, kru saman meanpong for another three years. then for one year he studied with kru lek.
i got that info from the short bio he wrote. i can show it to you but its in thai.
i may be wrong, but my thai sources confirm. they are the only three teachers who teach classic, unaltered, muay chaiya.
as for who accredited them, i will find out that info if it's vital. as for kru mud, he started muay boran (inc. weapon forms) when he was 13 with kru nakchai jimet whom he studied with for seven years. then he studied with kru tonglor for three years when he was about 20. he then studied with his uncle, kru saman meanpong for another three years. then for one year he studied with kru lek.
i got that info from the short bio he wrote. i can show it to you but its in thai.
Thanks for your reply.
My question remains the same, who appointed them as the sole three depositaries of Chaiya or the "real" Chaiya. You speak of direct lineage, yet I was told by more than one person that Kru Mud never learned with kru Tong. I know kru Tong had many students and I know who some of his direct students are, one of them personally. Also, kru Tong (or Tonglor) never named a successor, and that's also why Chaiya is such a mess nowadays with many claiming this and that privilege, but there is no tangible proof of their claims. And also there are students of the late kru Kehtr so as you can see the claim of the only three teachers doesn't stand.
I believe you asked your teacher, but with time you will hopefully meet other teachers or students and hear other people's opinions in Thailand. I am sorry but you were fed lies by a man who married kru Tong's niece and who therefore feels the right to claim what he claims with documents his wife inherited from kru Tong. Seek the truth from sources other than your teacher, hear other people's opinions since you have the chance not only to speak Thai but to read it and write it, that's a powerful tool when in Thailand. The fact that claims come from a teacher a kruu or an ajarn doesn't mean they are real, despite all the respect and honours they receive.
My question remains the same, who appointed them as the sole three depositaries of Chaiya or the "real" Chaiya. You speak of direct lineage, yet I was told by more than one person that Kru Mud never learned with kru Tong. I know kru Tong had many students and I know who some of his direct students are, one of them personally. Also, kru Tong (or Tonglor) never named a successor, and that's also why Chaiya is such a mess nowadays with many claiming this and that privilege, but there is no tangible proof of their claims. And also there are students of the late kru Kehtr so as you can see the claim of the only three teachers doesn't stand.
I believe you asked your teacher, but with time you will hopefully meet other teachers or students and hear other people's opinions in Thailand. I am sorry but you were fed lies by a man who married kru Tong's niece and who therefore feels the right to claim what he claims with documents his wife inherited from kru Tong. Seek the truth from sources other than your teacher, hear other people's opinions since you have the chance not only to speak Thai but to read it and write it, that's a powerful tool when in Thailand. The fact that claims come from a teacher a kruu or an ajarn doesn't mean they are real, despite all the respect and honours they receive.
destructautomaton
Green Belt
you are talking students of kru tong and mud was never heard of until recently, he didnt finish the system under tong from what i hear and finished it with others. praeng altered the system and lek too from what i hear. tong died and left no successor wand i think thats covered here somewhere in threads, tongs teacher has studnets still alive and tongs brother teaches, so its a total distortion from what i am hearing from the three who fight childishly among themselves and have driven people away from chaiya because of their actions and their studnets actions.
destructautomaton
Green Belt
accredited means certified--all they have to do is produce certificates from the teacher--the bio doesnt matter its all talk all the time. Produce a certificate or letter signed by kru tong is enough for most people.
what i say maybe be fed from lies i accept that (most thai history is based on misinformation, but then most history is). but what u said may be just the same. do u really know? have u spoke to any of the masters? or is your information from second-generation sourses like my own? we both speak and use evidence which neither of us can really really prove but what does that really matter?
kru mud knows his stuff and hes a very good teacher and has been very kind to me and helped me a lot. the argument about chaiya seems to be someone lying here and there but who cares? chaiya is a very interesting martial art which i am really enjoying learning. whether kru mud really learnt from kru tonglor doesnt matter to me. what i care about is learning. and he is teaching me. and he isnt teaching me something he just made up one day.
people seem to be missing the point. i hope you can see my point. i like chaiya. end of.
p.s, i've said this before, there are plenty of false karate, tkd, kung fu, muay thai teachers out there that teach pretty rubbish stuff. kru mud isnt teaching anything rubbish which can be seen from his students i see everyday. they know what they are doing and they are good at it. lies or no, they deserve respect.
kru mud knows his stuff and hes a very good teacher and has been very kind to me and helped me a lot. the argument about chaiya seems to be someone lying here and there but who cares? chaiya is a very interesting martial art which i am really enjoying learning. whether kru mud really learnt from kru tonglor doesnt matter to me. what i care about is learning. and he is teaching me. and he isnt teaching me something he just made up one day.
people seem to be missing the point. i hope you can see my point. i like chaiya. end of.
p.s, i've said this before, there are plenty of false karate, tkd, kung fu, muay thai teachers out there that teach pretty rubbish stuff. kru mud isnt teaching anything rubbish which can be seen from his students i see everyday. they know what they are doing and they are good at it. lies or no, they deserve respect.
another thing, you think old Chinese and Japanese masters never disagreed with each other in the early history of their styles? of course they did. chaiya is not young but it is only really recently coming back into the limelight.
most of us Westerners suffer from an orientalist view on the east, where everything is like the films. people fight, people disagree and its only by our opinion that they have soiled themselves in terms of reputation. the true spirit of chaiya is being taught here. most people who are really very good at the martial art they practise can teach not only the techniques but the spirit too.
i say again, untrue or not, kru mud (as well as the other masters) teach chaiya and they do it well. us westerners are far too blinded by our arrogance to accept simple truths like that, we need evidence for everything, and who is to say we are right?
i dont want to argue with you, you may disagree with what i am saying, but i really started this thread to talk about learning chaiya and other boran forms, not to nitpick about details that in the grand scheme of things, matter very little.
most of us Westerners suffer from an orientalist view on the east, where everything is like the films. people fight, people disagree and its only by our opinion that they have soiled themselves in terms of reputation. the true spirit of chaiya is being taught here. most people who are really very good at the martial art they practise can teach not only the techniques but the spirit too.
i say again, untrue or not, kru mud (as well as the other masters) teach chaiya and they do it well. us westerners are far too blinded by our arrogance to accept simple truths like that, we need evidence for everything, and who is to say we are right?
i dont want to argue with you, you may disagree with what i am saying, but i really started this thread to talk about learning chaiya and other boran forms, not to nitpick about details that in the grand scheme of things, matter very little.
destructautomaton
Green Belt
Ian you have a very childish view of the martial arts and science and reality doesnt seem part of it.
You are saying these three men are the sole authorities of chaiya and all i said is that their master must have certified them like most masters in the world and producing that certificate or letter would quell the people that call them all liars. Ive been to thailand and heard this all and its mostly immature masters fighting amongst themselves then getting gullible people like yourself to mouth off for them.
you havent talk anything about chaiya or boran techjniques only about this teacher and that teacher and how great the style is. so you are part of the blame here. i read your other threads as well as many threads from all the students of chaiya teachers and they are all terrible and very sad to read
You are saying these three men are the sole authorities of chaiya and all i said is that their master must have certified them like most masters in the world and producing that certificate or letter would quell the people that call them all liars. Ive been to thailand and heard this all and its mostly immature masters fighting amongst themselves then getting gullible people like yourself to mouth off for them.
you havent talk anything about chaiya or boran techjniques only about this teacher and that teacher and how great the style is. so you are part of the blame here. i read your other threads as well as many threads from all the students of chaiya teachers and they are all terrible and very sad to read
I understand your point with karate and tkd teachers, and as l said in a previous post all the lineage of these arts and their derivates can be checked with signed documents. What about Chaiya, since you made those strong claims there as to be solid proof from the older teacher that is kru Tong, as destructo said.
The info I have came just from asking questions people who know Chaiya and the situation, I won't name names because I am not them, but you can already find some answer in these threads if you just take the time to read carefully, people took the time to give long and detailed explanations for us and shared their research. In time, the truth will come out and expose the lies-as it has done in other forums.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?84224-Thai-Bare-Knuckle
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?75441-Krabi-Krabong-USA
The info I have came just from asking questions people who know Chaiya and the situation, I won't name names because I am not them, but you can already find some answer in these threads if you just take the time to read carefully, people took the time to give long and detailed explanations for us and shared their research. In time, the truth will come out and expose the lies-as it has done in other forums.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?84224-Thai-Bare-Knuckle
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?75441-Krabi-Krabong-USA
ok i see no one will ever understand that i just wanted to talk about training. i may be childish but at least i am not arrogant of gullible, i wont believe everything i read like you guys see to do. if i proven wrong, then so be it. but i dont care. as i said, i started this thread to talk about training. none of you who keep on going with this negative discussion seem able to understand that.
i wont come back to this forum. was hoping to find like-minded people but instead i find only harshness. just wanted to talk about training for chirsts sake. whats wrong with you people? have to bully everyone to share the same viewpoint as yourself? am i so wrong to like kru mud and want to train with him? i can see nothing i say will produce anything other than counter-criticism so i shall say no more. thanks for bullying me off this site. its pathetic.
last thing i WILL say. i like learning chaiya, more than i have any other martial art that i have done before. and no amount of nay-saying and bullying me will convince me otherwise. good day to you all.
i wont come back to this forum. was hoping to find like-minded people but instead i find only harshness. just wanted to talk about training for chirsts sake. whats wrong with you people? have to bully everyone to share the same viewpoint as yourself? am i so wrong to like kru mud and want to train with him? i can see nothing i say will produce anything other than counter-criticism so i shall say no more. thanks for bullying me off this site. its pathetic.
last thing i WILL say. i like learning chaiya, more than i have any other martial art that i have done before. and no amount of nay-saying and bullying me will convince me otherwise. good day to you all.
Yes it's true, those old Chinese and Japanese masters and their students argued and fought for their arguments and it was witnessed and proved, what the these three Chaiya teachers do is just argue WITHOUT SIGNED OR OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS FROM THE OLD TEACHERS (Kru Tong) that are needed to back up their claims. Again like in Karate and TKD, whose teachers have these kind of documents or yes, they can have problems like who authorized you to teach.
It means that anyone with some Chaiya training can come up and say hey I am one of the only three masters allowed to teach the pure chaiya, I trained here and there but I have no certificate or solid proof to back my statement.
I am just trying to help you so again as you are good at Thai use it and do your research, just ask around there is no harm in that, you are in Bangkok and there are different Chaiya teachers so take your time.
It means that anyone with some Chaiya training can come up and say hey I am one of the only three masters allowed to teach the pure chaiya, I trained here and there but I have no certificate or solid proof to back my statement.
I am just trying to help you so again as you are good at Thai use it and do your research, just ask around there is no harm in that, you are in Bangkok and there are different Chaiya teachers so take your time.
I don't believe everything I read, I asked around when I was in Thailand and confronted what I was told with others who were there and did their work. I also saw with my own eyes when I was in Thailand and everytime I was advised to check directly. Even my teacher in Thailand gave me other teachers' contacts and told me to check around so that I could see for myself and expand my knowledge. It's good not to believe everything you read and again, that's what I am advising you to do: see for yourself! and don't just blindly report to your teacher
Cyriacus
Senior Master
In The Event You Do In Fact Leave, As A Result Of Distasteful Exchange;
Have A Nice Day, My Good Sir.
Live Long, Train Hard, And Have Fun.
:s70:
And In The Event You Stay, As A Result Of Any Given Thought Process;
I Assure You, One Negative Is Not All Consuming.
Talk About Any Martial Art, And You Will Eventually Find Negativity To Your Perceptions.
How You Respond To That Negativity, Will Create Outcomes.
I Am Curious To See What, If Any, Resolution Comes Of This Discussion.
destructautomaton
Green Belt
excuse me but there was NO distasteful exchange here at all if you read through this thread. ther was a discussion
this is how all chaiya threads on numerous forums go. same exact way every time. its childish more than anything. hes also totally ignoring facts that many people here trained in thailand for a long time some for decades but he doesnt want to listen or hear that...strange isnt ????
this is how all chaiya threads on numerous forums go. same exact way every time. its childish more than anything. hes also totally ignoring facts that many people here trained in thailand for a long time some for decades but he doesnt want to listen or hear that...strange isnt ????
Cyriacus
Senior Master
It was quite Distasteful.
In the Sense that it was an Entire Conversation about People trying to Prove each other Wrong, whatever the Motives.
Such things are Fine, in Moderation.
But can you really say that this Entire Conversation was in Good Taste, for Both Sides?
But only in the Sense that it was a Completely Avoidable Debate.
I take no Sides, here.
I have Refrained from even Stating my own Opinion on the Discussion Itself.
destructautomaton
Green Belt
thats your opinion. i have mine. if martial arts dont suit you take up table tennis or something. the thread about bringing details about chaiya that are well known and need to be discussed. ian didnt want part of it and started crying its us beating him down.
No sense continuing but you want to keep on.
No sense continuing but you want to keep on.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
I was under the Impression that the Thread was about Whether or Not there were other People on here who Practitioned either of the Styles?
My Mistake, I Suppose.
And why wouldnt Martial Arts suit me? Thats Hardly the Topic here.
And how do I want to keep on going? I just bid him Farewell.
Out of Politeness.
It is distasteful for ianchaiya to have statements countering his claims, and it is distasteful for others not to have any proof whatsoever to the same IMPORTANT claims here or on any other forum to begin with, since this is what has been discussed and led to the problem, and since there has not been a credible answer to that.
destructautomaton
Green Belt
this thread has outlived its usefulness. its just spinning in a circle
