Motion Kenpo?????

[brianhunter]

I have seen the term come up a bit lately, Ive also seen "commercial kenpo" come up as well. Usually implying it's what I am learning.
I have absolute faith in the effectiveness of the "motion, commercial," flung dung, whatever Kenpo I am learning (I was always told it was Mr. Parkers at least by all of his books he wrote)

Could someone please explain these terms to me and how they apply??

 

[Michael Billings]

Motion Kenpo - Hmm.... you will have to ask "Doc" Ron Chapel about that. It has come to be his anacronym for the Kenpo Mr. Parker was teaching the majority of his actual personal students in the '80's, if I am not mistaken.

He has a product called Sub-Level IV, a worthwhile and valuable product, which he believes is clearly superior or more sophisticated than "Motion Kenpo." Numerous discussions ... and worse, have ensued on other forums regarding his interpretation or development of American Kenpo.

OK, so numerous discussions and worse happen regarding AKKI Paul Mills Kenpo, or Tracy Kenpo, or Kosho Ryu Kenpo, etc. I have been reading "Doc's" SL-4, seen some of it applied, by Edmund Jr., and what I saw worked, but I also hear from the old hands around Kenpo, that they never doubted his ability to do good Kenpo - it is just what he calls it and how he markets himself as a "Martial Science University." I know his side of it, and have heard other's. I really suggest you call or correspond with him to find out the real deal, rather than start yet another string on SL-4?

-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Michael Billings



Seen some of it applied, by Edmund Jr., and what I saw worked,

-Michael
UKS-Texas

Mr. Billings,

I appreciate that I can always get an honest opinion from you, your a rare breed sir! I met Mr. Parker at a birthday party, we taked about graphic arts, spiderman, and some star wars pretty much but he did touch on a couple of things just in discussion that where very cool and worked, I did not realize this is what he was doing I guess.

My question then is if this is just the natural progression of kenpo then why is all other types of kenpo given such a negative tone if that is the base of the applied science???

 

[Michael Billings]

I would argue that this is not the "Natural Progression" of Kenpo, but rather a more esoteric version of the applications of Kenpo. It is Dr. Chapel who has delineated this and is marketing it as the Kenpo Mr. Parker and he were working on. I have heard many Seniors, Dr. Chapel, and Edmund's side of it, so I am refraining passing any judgement. I do have an opinion ... and that if it works and people want to learn it, then go for it.

But similar systems, sans Kenpo, have exested for centuries, including Dillman's Pressure Point knockout system, Dim Muk, Ninjitsu, several Kung-Fu styles, etc. Most sophisticated martial arts have to include some knowledge of not just pressure points, but a comprehensive study of neuro-musculature. Some people spent a lifetime studying it, not just for the martial application, but for healing also.

Dr. Chapel argues that his SL-4 goes far beyond this. I think that is arguable. Personally I like being able to take someone to the ground utilizing the "fire ring" around the wrist and pressure to the nerve plexus on junction of the shoulder / neck, but I am not pretenting to understand why it works or why it does not, in terms of opening meridians and interupting chi flow, according to the time of day, etc. 90% of the people go to the ground and 10% don't. What do I know? But it can be "fun stuff" to play with and potentially dangerous in the extreme ... but isn't that true for all of Kenpo?

Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[Rob_Broad]

Well Put Mr. Billings.

 

[Rainman]

Motion Kenpo - Hmm.... you will have to ask "Doc" Ron Chapel about that. It has come to be his anacronym for the Kenpo Mr. Parker was teaching the majority of his actual personal students in the '80's, if I am not mistaken.

Not true- motion kenpo is an old term- very old from my understanding. My teachers teacher used "Motion Kenpo" to describe particular aspects of Kenpo I beleive over ten years ago or right around that time frame. Our definition is slightly different- it describes the commercial vehicle without the principles, concepts and theories... That is what makes it commercial- once the concepts are added the degree of lethality goes way up.

This is the perspective I have- although I understand Dr. Chapels-I am also sure there are others that use the term in a slightly different way as well. You will have to find some old people whose memory was kept in tact by notes or whatnot because I believe the term was coined in the sixties or early seventies By Ed Parker himself. If that is the case MK's definition will have different meanings to different people the same way 32 went to 24 down to 16/20.

another perspective to consider.

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

However I think that Ron Chapel epitimizes this dichotomy, and has intentionally contrasted "motion" Kenpo to his SL-4. To Mr. Parker, it was all Kenpo. Some was possibly less sophisticated, due to the time of it's inception, and students from that era perpetuating what they had learned then.

I am not implying this is good ... or bad. It just is, and I think Dr. Chapel has benefited greatly by marketing his SL-4 as something he and Mr. Parker were working on that the rest of his Senior students were not privy to. Once again, not good ... not bad to me. I was not there, so I don't have all the facts, nor do I expect that I ever will. But none-the-less, the issue that originated on this thread was "What's the difference?" Not whether there is any such animal. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it ain't no horse. (Folksy humor inserted here!)

I know what I have heard from the good Doctor himself, I know what his peers, and those close to Mr. Parker say, and it is clear that Kenpo can go in numerous directions and still be the System brought into being by Mr. Parker. He was and is, THE SOURCE. Just because the extensions you study are not the ones I use, (your contact manipulation focus), that does not make it one bit less true Kenpo. MOTION SMOTION - I find a "commercial" Kenpo vs. a non-commercial version much more palatable and easier to refer to. I know "motion" was used to deliniate between what we now call Tracy Kenpo, and what Mr. Parker systematically organized through the '70's into the '80's, focusing on Principles, Concepts, and Theories.

Anyhow I am getting off the :soapbox: now and heading for bed. I have almost wound down from teaching 3 classes and several privates, and still have to get to work in the morning.

Yall have a great Kenpo Day,
Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[arnisador]

It's interesting for a non-Kenpoka like me to see some of the details of how and when things branched off. I had seen Sub-Level IV referred to before and was about to ask what it was (and what Sub-Levels I, II , and III were!).

In Modern Arnis we say that those who trained with the Professor at different times--different decades, really--got very different arts emphasizing very different things. It sounds like something similar has gone on here. Of course, Kenpo is the canonical example of an art splintering after the death of its founder, but Modern Arnis is right up there with it sadly. If you belive that only the fittest arts will survive in the end it's not clearly a bad thing--but if you believe otherwise, who knows.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by arnisador

It's interesting for a non-Kenpoka like me to see some of the details of how and when things branched off. I had seen Sub-Level IV referred to before and was about to ask what it was (and what Sub-Levels I, II , and III were!).

In Modern Arnis we say that those who trained with the Professor at different times--different decades, really--got very different arts emphasizing very different things. It sounds like something similar has gone on here. Of course, Kenpo is the canonical example of an art splintering after the death of its founder, but Modern Arnis is right up there with it sadly. If you belive that only the fittest arts will survive in the end it's not clearly a bad thing--but if you believe otherwise, who knows.

There are four basic RANGES taught in Kenpo. They are:

1. Out of Contact

2. Within Contact

3. Contact Penetration

4. Contact Manipulation

Sub-Level four derives it's name from the fourth basic range in Kenpo (a.k.a. contact manipulation). Although, that is just the surface understanding.

While SL-4 does involve contact manipulation, it goes even further... according to what I have witnessed with Dr. Chapel. It teaches nerve strikes, destructive sequencing, body mechanics, and Chinese Reflexology... (to name a few points...)

Hope this gives you a better understanding of what it is, and where it gets it's name from...

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:

 

[arnisador]

Yes, thanks!

 

[Rainman]

I know what I have heard from the good Doctor himself, I know what his peers, and those close to Mr. Parker say, and it is clear that Kenpo can go in numerous directions and still be the System brought into being by Mr. Parker. He was and is, THE SOURCE. Just because the extensions you study are not the ones I use, (your contact manipulation focus), that does not make it one bit less true Kenpo. MOTION SMOTION - I find a "commercial" Kenpo vs. a non-commercial version much more palatable and easier to refer to. I know "motion" was used to deliniate between what we now call Tracy Kenpo, and what Mr. Parker systematically organized through the '70's into the '80's, focusing on Principles, Concepts, and Theories

I am sure you do plenty of CM just a little different than our take. I hope his little rant didn't turn you off. I explained that indeed you are one of the good guys. I agree- you are old but your post was good too


:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by arnisador

In Modern Arnis we say that those who trained with the Professor at different times--different decades, really--got very different arts emphasizing very different things. It sounds like something similar has gone on here.

Absolutely correct. It was the same in Kenpo. Most here have a pretty good understanding but I would like to make one point. I don't so much "market" what I was taught as find it necessary to "differentiate" in a forum because it is not the same. Most know I don't recruit and only sell the first Coursebook and cd-rom as "informational material only." No long distance rank or promotions. Because of this we are not "mainstream" nor do we try to be. However most will also tell you I share Kenpo information freely when possible and don't ask people to join or send money.

Simply you can't have a discussion and take for granted everyone does the same thing and has the same understandings because we don't. It simply leads to misunderstandings. So Motion-Kenpo (correctly attributed to Ed Parker by the way in the seventies) is different from what I was taught/teach and many MK ideas, theories, and concepts do not apply.

If this was an auto forum and most were driving Chevys, when the Ford and Chrysler guys come in to join in the conversation, it would be necessary to point out that "I'm Ford and you're Chevy" to avoid confusion. That's all. No put down, just different. What's better is an individual opinion based on what you're looking for. I actually take pride in the fact that what we teach is NOT for most.

The "why" of the difference from my peers is not for me to say other than I have never was mainstream with Mr. Parker, and my real peers don't do Motion-Kenpo either. (I was a Black Belt when Trejo and Tatum started). I've had a school since the early sixties and no one ever was brought there by Ed Parker except Paul Mills. What does that mean? Hell, I don't know. I just do what I do and in person it all becomes very clear. In my school there is no motion, SL-4, Shaolin, Oknawan, etc. Just Kenpo as we understand it, which apparently is different from most. I can live with that.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear



There are four basic RANGES taught in Kenpo. They are:

1. Out of Contact

2. Within Contact

3. Contact Penetration

4. Contact Manipulation

Sub-Level four derives it's name from the fourth basic range in Kenpo (a.k.a. contact manipulation). Although, that is just the surface understanding.

While SL-4 does involve contact manipulation, it goes even further... according to what I have witnessed with Dr. Chapel. It teaches nerve strikes, destructive sequencing, body mechanics, and Chinese Reflexology... (to name a few points...)

Hope this gives you a better understanding of what it is, and where it gets it's name from...

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:

See Mr. Lear? You don't fool me.

Ed Parker used to speak of "Working on things that occur on a Sub-Level of the last range." I coined the term SubLevel Four Kenpo. He also told me, "The ultimate aim of Kenpo is Control Manipulation." However how this is accomplished goes well beyond what most people think of when they see that term. In fact it goes beyond touching and can be accomplished without initial contact, and force an opponent to "manipulate himself."

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Doc

However most will also tell you I share Kenpo information freely when possible and don't ask people to join or send money.

I'll testify to that! But giving credit where credit is due, so does
Mr. C. And MANY of us appreciate it sincerely!!!