Most important Kata

[Sukerkin]

I was going to suggest that the first four forms of Seiza No Bu plus the first four of Batto Ho might be a candidate for the 'core concepts' kata series ... then I realised I was in the Karate fora and that that might just be a tad off topic :O.

Sorry chaps ... blame it on using the New Posts link to check what's going on :blush:.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Short form 1 (style is unimportant)

 

[D.Cobb]

I was told before that sanchin Kata is very important And some could do it for 20 years and never know its meaning. It teaches proper breathing proper dynamics of the body when striking and blocking But with out looking or being told what to look for it takes years to understand. So for Goju Ryu It is important Now all the old Kata Koryu katas They hold the key that makes Karate what it is So they are very important to all the styles That have retained them And its been said they should never be changed The newer katas since say 1930 They can be up dated alterd as they are not the key to the orginal Arts that Karate evolved from.

Sanchin kata, is the most important. I believe it was Chojun Miyagi who said, "If your Sanchin kata is no good, then your karate is no good either." Or something to that effect.
My Senseii tells it this way, "When I see you do Sanchin kata correctly, then I can walk out and not come back. Because then, you won't need me any more."

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

Short form 1 (style is unimportant)

Short Form 1, Taikyoku, Gekesai, etc. These katas are primarily meant to teach the individual stances and transitions between them, to beginners. Once the beginner has learnt these stances transitions and accompanying blocks and strikes, then they can be taught the core katas of their respective styles.

It's the core katas that are important.

--Dave

 

[Chizikunbo]

Style you do and what YOU consider the most important kata, If there is one that seems to generally be considered the most important give that too

Seisan? Sanchin? Naihanchi? Pinan Series? What's the one you'd keep if you could only keep one?

Personally I think that Naihanchi Shodan is one of the most important Kata, and my personal favorite.
The bunkai concepts presented in this form, have taught me more about martial arts, than any other form I have studied....
--Josh

 

[IWishToLearn]

Not quoting or picking any particular post.. just using this as a jumping off point..

I would consider that the MOST IMPORTANT KATA is one of two things.

Both are very ambiguous.

It is either..

1. The very first kata that you learn in your chosen style.
--Reason being. It is the base on which you build all your other kata. The first kata will usually make or break a (potential) karateka. Once the first kata is out of the way and learned, it becomes apparent to the student that they either can or cannot do this. Thankfully, most people decide to continue on, and using that skill gained from learning the first kata, they are able to perform all the other kata that they are taught.

or

2. Your competition kata, if you compete.. this could also be altered to say, "Your favorite kata to perform". You will always devote more time and effort to the kata, any/all of them that you like. However, if you compete and you have one kata that you use for that, it will become the most important kata to YOU. You will give it more of your "attention to detail" and effort.

Kata, IMHO is about perspective. I believe there is room for interpretation in many different kata. Obviously, the more basic kata are less subjective, and have a fairly "set in stone" interpretation. But as kata get more advanced, there are some techniques that become more open to interpretation.. many times based on style, but also based on personal perspective.

Just a thought in respect to point #1: I've watched trial classes at several schools wherein they teach a very poor "first kata" just to give people the impression that they'll be able to efficiently learn the system, and then slam them with extremely high tuition rates. In each case, it was a case of McDojo at work. Whee.

 

[cstanley]

For the Shorin/Shito ryu/Shuri based styles, the 5 Pinan are the essential and most important kata. Sanchin is almost universally named as most important by Goju stylists, and Naihanchi has to be somewhere in the most important group. Everything else is gravy.

 

[chinto]

all of the kata in a system are important! and diferent systems start with diferent kata. the system i study is one that till a few years ago started out with seisan as the very first kata. I would say every kata is as important as any other just for different reasons.

 

[seasoned]

Okinawan GoJu-Ryu 2 by Seikichi Toguchi is a very good read for any
serious karate person. Back on subject Sanchin is the foundation kata.

 

[seasoned]

all of the kata in a system are important! and diferent systems start with diferent kata. the system i study is one that till a few years ago started out with seisan as the very first kata. I would say every kata is as important as any other just for different reasons.

If I may I would like to comment on the above.
In order for our style or any for that matter to be considered an art it must have a progression to it. As with a musical instrument you start with the basics and everything else is built off of that. In the case of Sanchin it contains the essence and root of all other techniques. For this reason it was taught first and in some cases unless you persevered over many years you were never given anything else. The key elements of our art does not begin with techniques but with breath control, structure, and proper movement, all of which sanchin teaches us. Once you have these foundational elements then you can begin to incorporate them into all of your kata, or techniques. Traditional Karate is like building a house, foundation first, structure then the finer work last. I feel this is why some of our greatest masters looked so smooth and fast but when they hit it was very meaningful. Please lets dialog to see how others feel about this. Maybe some lukers will put their 2cents in. It is hard to express with a key board what I am trying to say but let it be known that I always type with the spirt of respect for all

 

[searcher]

Style: Chito-ryu Kata: Seisan

 

[cstanley]

If I may I would like to comment on the above.
In order for our style or any for that matter to be considered an art it must have a progression to it. As with a musical instrument you start with the basics and everything else is built off of that. In the case of Sanchin it contains the essence and root of all other techniques. For this reason it was taught first and in some cases unless you persevered over many years you were never given anything else. The key elements of our art does not begin with techniques but with breath control, structure, and proper movement, all of which sanchin teaches us. Once you have these foundational elements then you can begin to incorporate them into all of your kata, or techniques. Traditional Karate is like building a house, foundation first, structure then the finer work last. I feel this is why some of our greatest masters looked so smooth and fast but when they hit it was very meaningful. Please lets dialog to see how others feel about this. Maybe some lukers will put their 2cents in. It is hard to express with a key board what I am trying to say but let it be known that I always type with the spirt of respect for all

What you say is very true. Shito ryu incorporates Sanchin fairly early, although it isn't taught first. For the Shuri/Itosu/ Mabuni lineage ryu, the Pinan are the building blocks. They are sort of the kata alphabet. Sanchin is usually taught after Ten No, Chino (Fukyugata), the Pinan, and Naihanchi. This just reflects the differences in philosophy and training between the Naha and Shuri/Tomari ryu. I have asked several Okinawan instructors and some Western instructors what kata are most important to them. All said the Pinan. If I had to give up all my kata but a few, I'd keep the 5 Pinan.
BTW, there is a difference between "most important" and "favorite." Anybody want to do a thread on "what is your favorite kata?"

 

[searcher]

BTW, there is a difference between "most important" and "favorite." Anybody want to do a thread on "what is your favorite kata?"

I could not agree more with you. The reason our style uses seisan as its "base" is because O-sensei Chitose spent the early years of his training working only on this kata under the guidance of Seisho Aragaki, before he was allowed to move on to other training. As far as the favorite thing, there are already threads on this. Mine happens to be either Sochin or Niseishi, to tough to decide.

 

[cstanley]

I could not agree more with you. The reason our style uses seisan as its "base" is because O-sensei Chitose spent the early years of his training working only on this kata under the guidance of Seisho Aragaki, before he was allowed to move on to other training. As far as the favorite thing, there are already threads on this. Mine happens to be either Sochin or Niseishi, to tough to decide.

I do the Arakaki Sochin. My guess is that you probably do, too. That is a fine kata and one of my favorites. Gojushiho and Rohai are my two favorites, however.

 

[chinto]

I am still learning the Pinan and tough I have studied the more advanced kata a bit I have no idea wich one is of greatest importance. However what you learn above black belt is generally considered to be way more important once you have a solid foundation to build upon.

Personally, right now, I`d chose Kushanku for my only kata beacuse you find a lot to work with there and much stuff from the Pinan series.

I would have to coment that your statement about what you learn above black belt ( shodan ho or shodan ) is more importent. that would depend on the system. in the system I am a student of you learn all the empty hand kata of the system and polish them to a fair degree before you test for shodan ho. after all they are the test criteria. you also learn kobujitsu/kobudo and test on the weapons you know, but there you may indeed learn more weapons kata after that point of testing for shodan ho.

 

[chinto]

If I may I would like to comment on the above.
In order for our style or any for that matter to be considered an art it must have a progression to it. As with a musical instrument you start with the basics and everything else is built off of that. In the case of Sanchin it contains the essence and root of all other techniques. For this reason it was taught first and in some cases unless you persevered over many years you were never given anything else. The key elements of our art does not begin with techniques but with breath control, structure, and proper movement, all of which sanchin teaches us. Once you have these foundational elements then you can begin to incorporate them into all of your kata, or techniques. Traditional Karate is like building a house, foundation first, structure then the finer work last. I feel this is why some of our greatest masters looked so smooth and fast but when they hit it was very meaningful. Please lets dialog to see how others feel about this. Maybe some lukers will put their 2cents in. It is hard to express with a key board what I am trying to say but let it be known that I always type with the spirt of respect for all

yes there is a progression, how ever diferent systems have diferent doctrins and progressions. the system i study added fyu kyu kata to make the initial entry a lot easier for new students, but if you look you will find that for the okinawan kata's the oldest empty hand kata is seisan. it teaches all kinds of the fundimentals. so im not sure why you would some how think that i am saying that the fundimentals are not important, after all the fundimentals are what make up all the kata just mixed up and moved around and used a bit diferently. each system starts diferently. the systems of goju starts with sanchin kata and uechi ryu start as with it as well. But, meany other systems do not.

 

[chinto]

What you say is very true. Shito ryu incorporates Sanchin fairly early, although it isn't taught first. For the Shuri/Itosu/ Mabuni lineage ryu, the Pinan are the building blocks. They are sort of the kata alphabet. Sanchin is usually taught after Ten No, Chino (Fukyugata), the Pinan, and Naihanchi. This just reflects the differences in philosophy and training between the Naha and Shuri/Tomari ryu. I have asked several Okinawan instructors and some Western instructors what kata are most important to them. All said the Pinan. If I had to give up all my kata but a few, I'd keep the 5 Pinan.
BTW, there is a difference between "most important" and "favorite." Anybody want to do a thread on "what is your favorite kata?"

I would have to say seisan is one of the most important as it is the oldest and a basis there for, but i would give up the pinan kata to keep kusanku and kusanku dai. all that is in the pinan is in the kusanku katas. I would however say that every kata has a great deal to teach you.

 

[Grenadier]

I posted earlier in this thread, regarding empty hand kata, but I'll also post from a kobudo viewpoint as well.

In the Yamanni-Ryu kobudo system, the bojutsu kata has a most interesting history. Originally, kata Tsuji No Kon was the first one to be taught to the students, but as it turns out, it is rather complex, and in retrospect, probably too complex for your "average" student to learn first.

Therefore, the Don Nyu Kon kata series (ichi, ni) are taught first these days, since they help refine your basic bo techniques to the point where you can then be ready to learn the more complex kata. This is why I would have to say that the Don Nyu Kon kata are extremely important, since they're easy to learn, but give you a good foundation on which you can build. Once students have the two above kata, then they can learn Tsuji No Kon much more effectively.

The Chou No Kon kata series (sho, dai) are also very important, since they teach you manipulation of the bo that incorporates multiple strikes in what looks like a fast flurry of strikes, as well as really hitting weight shifting, so that by the time you have learned the Don Nyu Kon and Chou No Kon kata series, learning the next kata, Ryu Bi No Kon, takes only a single session in most people's cases.

 

[seasoned]

Now here's another question, do you think you can learn something about a person's understanding of their system based on what they answer?

Very good, and yes you can. What they say is what they train with. Everyone looks for something that they want. May money is on Sanchin,
boring but necessary to best grasp the principles of the art.

 

[cstanley]

I agree with Seasoned. How they answer says a lot. For the Naha based ryu, Sanchin is invariably the answer seniors give. I have heard Tensho given, as well as Seisan. Those are in the ball park, but you can't really understand them without Sanchin.

For the Shuri based ryu, I have to say the Pinan...all 5 as a unit. I know that many say Kosokun (Kushanku), and that would be ok, too, because the Pinan are derived, in part, from it. But, there are just some things in Pinan that you miss in Kosokun.

The difference in responses is just indicative of the different philosophies and origins of the ryu. We do the Naha kata in Shito ryu, but the emphasis is different. In spite of the fact that Mabuni incorporated the Naha kata, we are still primarily a Shuri/Tomari ryu. Nobody does Goju like a true Goju practitioner. There is just something missing if you haven't been Goju all your karate life. But, these are the nuances that make it all so interesting.