Pinan Shodan

[arnisador]

Thr form of it I know also has the spear pointing down--but I do see the similarities.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by arnisador



It is somewhat reminscent of that technique! Applications of it have been discussed in our Tai Chi forum--I like the arm lock.

We often interpret the move you mention from Pinan Shodan as a "diving throw" in Modern Arnis, where you grab say his left wrist in your left hand from the outside and slide your right forearm across his chest with your right leg behind his left leg, throwing him backwards. It's hard to describe but works--it's similar to an application of Tai Chi's ward off.

Instead of throwing them backward. What if you drove the right arm down, throwing them forward instead. I call this arm bar throw. But could pick up needle from sea bottom be this also.
Bob :asian:

 

[arnisador]

I'm not sure I'm picturing this correctly--your right forearm on top of their left forearm, driving down? Is their palm up or down?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Their Elbow should be pointed up toward the ceiling, palm faces down. i hope this helps the picture.
Bob

 

[arnisador]

OK, I'm with you know! Yes, I have seen that application of it and like it. The diving throw is something common in Modern Arnis.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I have been going back through my Okinawa kata's, the Pinan's and Naihanchi and trying to use the Tai Chi movements to help with some of the Okinawa meanings.
Bob

 

[Shinzu]

pinan shodan = hein shodan = pyong ahn cho dan.

i have always learned this form as the fourth form. in shotokan & tsd there are 3 basic forms before shodan/cho dan are taught.

it is orange belt level. even though it is very simple there are complex moves which teach different stances, blocks, and punches.

defenitley a beginners form in my opinion, but it takes years to master.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Was doing the Tai Chi /Okinawa comparsion. That opening movement could that be similar to Tai Chi's Fair Lady Weaves with Shuttles. Any Thoughts on this?
Bob:asian:

 

[Deathtrap101]

in our version the first move(when you turn to the left and make the 'c' with your arms). We turn left into a cat stance, raising the right hand above our heads and the inside to out fist is a block, then you pull the blocking hand in to the right side of your chest and the raised arm swings down and to what im to understand your smashing your jsut smashing your apponeents elbow.

 

[George Martin]

The tai chi movement is similar however it is followed by needle at sea bottom. It is also not done in back stance.

The difference is probably in the application. Or what you think is the proper application. I would grab the right striking arm with my right hand and strike with my left. The left arm of the opponent strikes, my left hand slides down the left arm grabs by the wrist and my right hand comes around and strikes the elbow joint from the outside.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I was looking at it more from the inside. As they attacker strikes with a hook punch or say impact weapon. moving in tight to their body deflecting the strike with the left hand as you strike with right hand.
Bob :asian:

 

[Shinzu]

Originally posted by Deathtrap101

in our version the first move(when you turn to the left and make the 'c' with your arms). We turn left into a cat stance, raising the right hand above our heads and the inside to out fist is a block, then you pull the blocking hand in to the right side of your chest and the raised arm swings down and to what im to understand your smashing your jsut smashing your apponeents elbow.

isnt that the second form you are referring to? pinan nidan / hein nidan / pyung ahn edan.

pinan shodan starts by turning left and performing a down block in front stance, followed by a right punch.

or are your forms switched around?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

No he is right the C movement is Pinan Shodan. Some people teach Nidan first this where you start with a down block. The reason is Nidan is easier than Shodan.
Bob:asian:

 

[Shinzu]

ok im sorry. what style is this?

in shotokan and tang soo do hein shodan / pyung ahn cho dan is the form i described above. hein nidan / pyung ahn edan is the form you are discussing, with the rising and cross block.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Okinawa Kempo teaches Pinan Shodan ( the one with C movement) first and Pinan Nidan (the one with down block first) second. You can thank Gichin Funakoshi for this mess. He belived Nidan was easier than Shodan so he decided to switch the two kata's. Most Japanese MA teach it the way you decribed.
Bob :asian:

 

[Shinzu]

funny but i think that your shodan is harder than your nidan. more complex movements involved with your shodan.

 

[Sensei Mike]

DKI Girl,

Care to revive this thread for an exchange of Pinan Shodan bunkai.

My Naihanchi bunkai are pretty good, but my Pinan Shodan are better. (I like to think that Itosu improved on the introductory kata, as Naihanchi was prior to the Pinans.) Also, I typed out some ideas some time ago, so I can do a post without too much effort.

If I had seen this post a week or so ago when I started the Naihanchi post, I probably would have skipped discussing Naihanchi and went straight to the Pinans, but I seem incapable of seeing all things in a list. Part of getting older, I guess.

How is this for a try. You pick the direction and I will describe a combination. With the exception of the last two directions, for which I have interpretations for kicks, I can use the movements against either right or left strikes. (Although the opening is primarily against a right strike.)

I think the kata can be viewed as 10 combinations in 9 directions. Left, right, back, front, side/corner, side/corner, back, back, side/corner, side/corner.

Just to keep us on the same page, perhaps you can describe your kata movements so I don't make any assumptions in case they are very different. I will probably ask for clarification.

Please let me know if you are interested.

I am interested any ideas you or others have to offer.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Okinawa Kempo teaches Pinan Shodan ( the one with C movement) first and Pinan Nidan (the one with down block first) second. You can thank Gichin Funakoshi for this mess. He belived Nidan was easier than Shodan so he decided to switch the two kata's. Most Japanese MA teach it the way you decribed.
Bob :asian:

Your correct.
Most if not all Okinawan styles teach the "C" Pinan as Shodan and the other as Nidan. In Japan they are reversed.
I don't know why Funakoshi felt he needed to switch the names. I teach Nidan before Shodan because Nidan teaches more stances (Kiba, Nekko, Zenkutsu) with less difficult hand movements than Shodan (Nekko, Zenkutsu) .

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Was doing the Tai Chi /Okinawa comparsion. That opening movement could that be similar to Tai Chi's Fair Lady Weaves with Shuttles. Any Thoughts on this?
Bob:asian:

Funny you should mention TaiChi and karate kata similarities.
When Yiliquan was in Japan we had this same discussion.........it was very interesting.
You might want to contact him about this.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




Funny you should mention TaiChi and karate kata similarities.
When Yiliquan was in Japan we had this same discussion.........it was very interesting.
You might want to contact him about this.

So RyuShiKan or Yiliquan What came of this discussion. Do you feel there is some similarities between Tai Chi forms and Okinawan kata. Would this help someone out on figuring bunkai out for different kata's?
Bob:asian: