Pinan Shodan

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu



So RyuShiKan or Yiliquan What came of this discussion. Do you feel there is some similarities between Tai Chi forms and Okinawan kata.

I would say there are more than a few similarities...............naturally the katas look different on the outside but many of the techniques are similar.

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Would this help someone out on figuring bunkai out for different kata's?
Bob:asian:

Maybe, depends on how you are looking at kata I guess.

I first noticed the similarity back in 1985 when I was living in China. I started doing TaiChi and noticed some of the moves seem to fit between the two arts. So I asked my teacher if a certain move could have this or that application and he looked at me kind of shocked and said "yes, but how did you know that?" . I explained to him that I didn't but in karate there is an almost identical technique.
Kind of freaked both of us out.

 

[chufeng]

Kempojujitsu,

The origins of Okinawan Karate come directly from Fujien Shaolin...

It is well documented by the old Okinawan teachers...

T'ai Chi Ch'uan (taijiquan) is a refinement of (or, at least was influenced by) Shaolin boxing...YiLiQuan1 will argue this point in that he believes the monks were really just that (pacifists) monks and that the real boxing arts came from those who used the Temple as a refuge...I don't really care...bottom line is that many arts CAN tie their history to China.

Some of the staunch internal proponents believe that T'ai Chi developed separately from the other boxing arts...I don't want to argue over that point...the question was about the similarities in application of movements that look the same.

Just the other day YiLiQuan1 was working a drill out of our first form TiYiKuanNien...I told him the application came straight out of Naihanchi Shodan (being the skeptic that he is, he argued with me)...so I asked him to do Naihanchi Shodan and stopped him when he came to the movement...he got the point. Our TiYiKuanNien form is from BaiXingQuan (a closed door (an underground society practiced this art) system determined to overthrow the Ch'ing) which is a Shaolin system...since Naihanchi was actually one large form broken down to three smaller forms originally derived from Shaolin, it is NOT a surprise to see the similarities...

The further you get away from the root, however, the stranger things look...the less they look like the root and take on their own feeling...hence the Japanese karate systems and the Korean systems derived from those same Japanese systems...

...am I rambling, or does this make any sense?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

Kempojujitsu,

The origins of Okinawan Karate come directly from Fujien Shaolin...

Yes and no. While the more famous katas of today are no doubt a variation on the Shaolin system there is also an art on Okinawa called Te which is believed to be separate from the Shaolin inspired styles. It is very rare and not many in, let alone outside, Okinawa know it and can do it. In fact I have heard more westerners claim to practice this art than Okinawans.........since Mark Bishop's book came out with a mention of it, it has become the new "buzz word" among certain groups. Kind of like when tuite and kyusho hit the bookshelves.......everyone was teaching it the next day.

There is a member of this BB that claims to practice Okinawa Te and I have PM on several occasions asking about it but he doesn't seem to want to discuss it.

Originally posted by chufeng

...since Naihanchi was actually one large form broken down to three smaller forms originally derived from Shaolin, it is NOT a surprise to see the similarities...

I have heard several theories about Naihanchi being one long kata and then cut up into 3 pieces, previously practiced in a straight line, someone invented Nidan, and Sandan etc.
All of them sound fairly reasonable and I don't discount any of them but one thing is true..........they are too similar to many of the Shaolin concepts and techniques to not have been connected to China in some way.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng

T'ai Chi Ch'uan (taijiquan) is a refinement of (or, at least was influenced by) Shaolin boxing...YiLiQuan1 will argue this point in that he believes the monks were really just that (pacifists) monks and that the real boxing arts came from those who used the Temple as a refuge...I don't really care...bottom line is that many arts CAN tie their history to China.

I won't disagree about the historical ties to Shaolin that many arts claim to possess... It is just the who involved in the creation of their arts that I cast a questioning eye towards...

Just the other day YiLiQuan1 was working a drill out of our first form TiYiKuanNien...I told him the application came straight out of Naihanchi Shodan (being the skeptic that he is, he argued with me)

I didn't mean to sound argumentative... The drill we were working was movement for movement identical to a section from our form. I just didn't know which section of the form Chufeng was referring to as having the same application... So...

...so I asked him to do Naihanchi Shodan and stopped him when he came to the movement...he got the point.

The techniques are quite different visually, but in their application they are quite similar.

Kempojujutsu -

I once said that in one night training in RyuTe Karate with RyuShiKan, I learned more about Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua than I had in years... I meant what I said. Not once did RyuShiKan say "Well, in Taiji they do it like this," or anything like that whatsoever. The techniques he was showing me, and leading me to understand, simply rang large chapel bells in my pointy little head, and I had epiphany after epiphany realizing the truth in the phrase "All are One."

Gambarimasu.

 

[RyuShiKan]

I have posted a URL to a website on this thread "Naihanchi 1,2,3 "New Discussion" " that has all the Pinan katas being performed.

There are several other well known katas on that website as well.

 

[Sensei Mike]

In referring to the opening of Pinan Shodan, Kempojujutsu stated:
I was looking at it more from the inside. As they attacker strikes with a hook punch or say impact weapon. moving in tight to their body deflecting the strike with the left hand as you strike with right hand.

I practice a similar combination. I put the attacker in front, and my counterclockwise pivot allows me to generate a lot of power for my left block. The move into cat stance, allows me to pull off the line as well. Then there are two follow-up strikes that I direct to the neck. I use the next series of movements in the kata to finish the opponent with an armbar, a strike to the neck, a takedown and a finishing kick. I can give more detail if you like.

 

[Sensei Mike]

Yiliquan1 stated:
I once said that in one night training in RyuTe Karate with RyuShiKan, I learned more about Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua than I had in years... I meant what I said. Not once did RyuShiKan say "Well, in Taiji they do it like this," or anything like that whatsoever. The techniques he was showing me, and leading me to understand, simply rang large chapel bells in my pointy little head, and I had epiphany after epiphany realizing the truth in the phrase "All are One."

Regarding my training, I have been lucky to study under a diverse community. Just a couple of weeks back I trained for the first time with Dan Inasanto of Jeet Kun Do/Kali-PMA and I too experienced the large bells. I get lots of opportunites to train in Judo, Tai Chi, Shoalin Kung Fu, Jiu Jitsu, Chi Na and many others. IMHO, there are far more commonalities than differences across the many disparate arts.

 

[lucifersdad]

pinan nidan, hmmmm, definatley a important kata to learn at an early stage.
ive been teaching and training in wado ryu karate for 10 years or so and i don't know a wado club that doesnt teach it!
for those wondering why nidan and shodan seem to be in the wrong order, i beleive it goes back too o-sensei otsuka, he beleived it was easier to learn and an easier way to introduce new stance, technique etc.....
so after parting ways with funakoshi sensei he decided to change it, or so i was told by tatsou suzuki (9th dan wado ryu).
if this is wrong will someone tell me cos its the only explaination i've heard, cheers

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by lucifersdad

for those wondering why nidan and shodan seem to be in the wrong order, i beleive it goes back too o-sensei otsuka, he beleived it was easier to learn and an easier way to introduce new stance, technique etc.....

Actually it was Funakoshi that changed the order/names of Pinan 1 & 2. He did it because he believed it was easier for people to learn the "real" Pinan 2 before the "real" Pinan 1.
Ohtsuka only studied with Funakoshi for about 14 months.

 

[Shinzu]

i believe funakoshi had it right. it is easier to learn them that way in my opinion. pinan (hein) shodan is more basic, while pinan (hein) nidan is a little more complex.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Shinzu
i believe funakoshi had it right. it is easier to learn them that way in my opinion. pinan (hein) shodan is more basic, while pinan (hein) nidan is a little more complex.

Just as a note of clarification……Pinan 1 in Okinawa is actually Heian 2 in Japan and Heian 1 in Japan is Pinan 2 in Okinawa.

Long ago students were taught stances extensively first then moved on to more advanced things.
Supposedly Funakoshi taught Pinan 2 (Heian 1 in Japan) first in Japan because it had more stances, Zenkutsudachi, Nekoashidachi, & Kibadachi, students could therefore learn the stances by actually doing them. Plus it had somewhat easier hand movements than Pinan 1.

 

[Field Cricket]

I recently started doing Taijiquan and a bit of Xingyi, and I was struck by how it made sense of so many of the Shotokan kata I studied many years ago. I would go so far as to recommend that if there is a martial arts oriented Taijiquan school near you and you do karate, train there for a while and be pleasantly surprised.

On a related note, am I right in thinking that the opening 'yoi' movement for karate kata is a militarised remnant of the 'universal breath' movement?

FC

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Field Cricket
I recently started doing Taijiquan and a bit of Xingyi, and I was struck by how it made sense of so many of the Shotokan kata I studied many years ago. I would go so far as to recommend that if there is a martial arts oriented Taijiquan school near you and you do karate, train there for a while and be pleasantly surprised.

On a related note, am I right in thinking that the opening 'yoi' movement for karate kata is a militarised remnant of the 'universal breath' movement?

FC

Funny............I noticed the exact same thing while studying Taichi in Taiwan.
The Taichi teacher and I compared "notes" on technique and at the end of it all had a greater understanding and respect for what each other did.

 

[yilisifu]

I just had a similar discussion with some of my students last night. The traditional Okinawan forms and techniques are much closer to the Chinese methods than most people think. In many ways, they're identical.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilisifu
I just had a similar discussion with some of my students last night. The traditional Okinawan forms and techniques are much closer to the Chinese methods than most people think. In many ways, they're identical.

Yiliquan1 and I did some comparing of notes as well and came to some pretty interesting conclusions...........hopefully he can come back this summer so we can do more.

 

[Matt Stone]

I'm hoping to be able to make it back in August... That is what I am shooting for, anyway.

My wife is supposed to start working for a local airline in June, and one of the benefits is free (or seriously reduced) fares. I could literally fly back and forth, round trip, for nothing at all!

That will make frequent trips a regular thing!

Anyway, I am also hoping for August so I can attend Bon Odori "back home."

 

[aricept]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
I have several tapes from Panther of this guy. He is one of Seikichi Odo people. Talk about some god awful bunkai. Know wonder people hate to do kata's or think they have nothing to do with real fighting. Has any one else seen these tapes.
Bob

I haven't seen the videos you mention, but I have seen some of his weapons videos. I've also met and been judged by Heilman Sensei. He's a great person. I can't comment on his skill, as I've only seen him teach a few basic techniques. But the lack of quality in his videos may stem from this: all of his videos were filmed in one day, and he was quite sick. He apparently even announces a kata name incorrectly on one of the weapons videos.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I don't know the guy you mentioned but Seikichi Odo was an excellent technician and had one hell of a punch.

One problem when a famous teachers dies is many nut cases claim to have studied from them.

Heilman did study from Odo, quite extensively. He made frequent visits to the Heilman dojo, and there was a room set aside in the Heilman household for him. Heilman is currently the head of the International Karate-Kobudo Federation ( http://www.ikkf.org ), and there is a picture of Heilman and Odo at http://www.ikkf.org/odo-memorial.html

Copies of his rank certificates, as well as lists of various achievements can be found at http://www.ikkf.org/cbh-resume.html

I'm not a student of Heilman's - I just figured I'd let you know the man is legit.

Now, as to Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan/Pyong An Eedan... I do the Pyong An form, the Korean one. We actually use a set of 6 very, very simplistic "intro" forms before the Pyong Ans just to get the student used to the varied movements of the forms. By the time the student is introduced to these they are ready to start thinking about applications, rather than just movements.

There are a host of possible interpretations for the opening movements. As someone already said, a throw is possible, as are various elbow and shoulder locks. Personally, I use the rising arm to block an incoming attack - it can be from any angle if you move correctly, but for purposes of the form it will be from the side - and, if possible, slide the hand to the wrist and pull as the left hand perfoms a hammer fist strike to the soft tissues of the underarm. From here you can follow up with an upset punch to the same region and then a jab to the face, or the joint locks refernce earlier. Probably will depend on how you choose to fight.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by aricept
Heilman did study from Odo, quite extensively. He made frequent visits to the Heilman dojo, and there was a room set aside in the Heilman household for him. Heilman is currently the head of the International Karate-Kobudo Federation ( http://www.ikkf.org ), and there is a picture of Heilman and Odo at http://www.ikkf.org/odo-memorial.html

Copies of his rank certificates, as well as lists of various achievements can be found at http://www.ikkf.org/cbh-resume.html

I'm not a student of Heilman's - I just figured I'd let you know the man is legit.

The word “extensively” has different meanings to different people……..especially in the MA world.
Pictures with famous Masters carry little weight with me.
I know a guy that is “Mr. Photo Op” and gets his photo taken with everyone and then claims he trained “extensively” with them.
Mind you I am not saying Heilman didn’t train with Odo……..I don’t care one way or another since it is none of my business.
What I am saying is don’t be fooled by dan ranks and “photo ops”.
This, unfortunenately is the way of the “new breed” that needs bloated ranks and photos with celebrities to vend their goods to the masses.
Dan ranks can be easily faked by the way. There is a section on MT about a guy that has a boat load of them. I looked at the jpegs of them and laughed my butt off at the poor quality of the forgery.
Technique talks and BS walks.

 

[vin2k0]

We teach Pinan Shodan at orange belt, the third kata ever learnt... after pinan nidan. although at black belt level the kata is broken down and put under the magnifying glass...