More vs Less Training Time

[Deleted member 39746]

I would not deem it impatient, would you think a reservist was impatient if they decided to choose the option which puts all their training in one block instead of spreading it out? (if they get such a choie anyway)

Better to get it done with ASAP if you want to do it/need to do it. I think there are plenty of people who do MA which would do it all day every day if they could economically support it and find a place which does it all day every day.

 

[JR 137]

Attending more class could mean someone’s impatient, but it doesn’t mean that in and of itself. If someone’s attending more classes for the sole purpose of promoting faster, then sure.

I’d attend 4 classes a week if I could. With 6 and 8 year old kids, it’s just not realistic to do that and be present as a husband and father. If I was running the dojo as a source of income, obviously that’s a different story.

If I attended every class I wanted to, it wouldn’t be out of impatience. It would be for many personal reasons - I want to improve my skills, I want to get into better shape, I love training, I love that feeling after I’m done training, and it’s a great escape from daily life. I trained 4-5 nights/days per week in college. I had significantly more free time and far less responsibilities. It didn’t interfere with what I truly had to do. I was chasing rank a bit back then, but training that much wasn’t my sole purpose. If I could train that often again without it interfering with my true priorities in life, I’d do it without a single regret.

I was supposed to start testing for 1st dan two weeks ago. I put it off until the spring because I started a new job a few weeks ago and don’t want to take the time off. Due to my new schedule and the testing schedule, I’d have to take about 5 days off from work over 6 weeks. I don’t want to be the guy who just started and is already taking a bunch of time off, regardless of if I can take it, paid time off, etc. If I was able to train 4-5 times a week, I’d still have delayed testing.

The motives for training more often determine if someone’s impatient, not solely the frequency. There are plenty of people in arts without rank who train as often as possible.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Keep in mind that theoretically you should be practicing still on your off days. That prevents having to relearn the material. I've been going only about once a week the last few months, but I practice every night, so I'm not having to relearn anything and still see progress.

Granted, I think you work mostly with kids/teens, so I'd be shocked if their actually practicing when they're not there (I know I claimed to do that but would skip out more than my share fair as a lad).

Right, I am not taking "homework" into account, where you train on your own at home, as that would make the discussion more complicated. Besides, doing too much homework as a beginner can be detrimental in that you can develop bad habits. As a beginner much of your training should be done under the supervision of an instructor so you don't practice the wrong way to do it.

For sake of discussion and for sake of simplicity in my example, our hypothetical student who chooses to train one hour instead of three hours a week, or three hours instead of one hour a week, that's class time. Lets say the student does the same amount of homework in both cases. Again, I am using small numbers for sake of simplicity. Using bigger numbers for the training hours can bring into question the issue of overtraining which would make the discussion that much more complicated. So in my example the student is a beginner in which case you wouldn't want to do too much homework and you wouldn't want to overtrain. But in all fairness, even most beginning students can handle three hours a week so lets say that our imaginary student in this case can handle that amount without overdoing it.

 

[skribs]

Right, I am not taking "homework" into account, where you train on your own at home, as that would make the discussion more complicated. Besides, doing too much homework as a beginner can be detrimental in that you can develop bad habits. As a beginner much of your training should be done under the supervision of an instructor so you don't practice the wrong way to do it.

This sounds like an excuse. You should be practicing what your instructor taught you and building that muscle memory so you can learn more next class.

We have a girl in my school, around 10 years old, and she's quickly becoming one of my favorite students. She doesn't grasp all of the concepts right away, and she struggles mightily with a lot of things when she gets a new belt. But the thing about her is, I give her one piece of advice every class, and every class she comes in and I can tell she has practiced and destroyed whatever advice I gave her. That leaves her ready to accept the next piece next time.

Most of the other students don't do this. I don't know if they just don't practice at all, or if they "practice" by just playing around, but a lot of the other students it takes longer for them to iron out these details. If I give a kid advice on something, and next class they're still working at it, I let them struggle with it for a couple weeks before I bring it up again. Some kids, I bring up the same thing every couple of weeks, and it's clear they are not practicing at home with the presence of mind to fix this issue. They take forever to progress in their skills and in their belts.

A beginner should be practicing what they were taught, so they can be ready to learn the next lesson.

 

[pdg]

Right, I am not taking "homework" into account, where you train on your own at home, as that would make the discussion more complicated. Besides, doing too much homework as a beginner can be detrimental in that you can develop bad habits. As a beginner much of your training should be done under the supervision of an instructor so you don't practice the wrong way to do it.

For sake of discussion and for sake of simplicity in my example, our hypothetical student who chooses to train one hour instead of three hours a week, or three hours instead of one hour a week, that's class time. Lets say the student does the same amount of homework in both cases. Again, I am using small numbers for sake of simplicity. Using bigger numbers for the training hours can bring into question the issue of overtraining which would make the discussion that much more complicated. So in my example the student is a beginner in which case you wouldn't want to do too much homework and you wouldn't want to overtrain. But in all fairness, even most beginning students can handle three hours a week so lets say that our imaginary student in this case can handle that amount without overdoing it.

Yeah, still not impatient.

I still don't recall you answering my counter question though, so I'll ask it again.

Where did this suggestion of impatience come from anyway?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Is this the 53rd, or 54th time you've asked this same question, thinking you'll get a different answer? I've lost count.

Its the first time.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Where are you getting this thing about it making someone impatient anyway?

Impatient implies wanting to move 'up' quicker than you are able - training more (within your limits) is more a sign of dedication and enthusiasm.

Well because in most cases a student is going to progress faster if they train three hours a week instead of just one. Wanting to move faster some might see as a product of impatience.

A student wants to get from point A to point B where point B is reaching a certain level of knowledge and skill within their marital art. If the student trains three hours a week a week its safe to say that the student will reach point B sooner than if they were to instead just train one hour a week.

By training three hours a week the student will reach point B sooner, it won't take the student less time, but they will get their sooner.

By wanting to get their sooner and taking necessary action to get their sooner (training three hours a week instead of just one) some might say the student is being impatient.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yeah, still not impatient.

I still don't recall you answering my counter question though, so I'll ask it again.

Where did this suggestion of impatience come from anyway?

See post #47

 

[skribs]

Well because in most cases a student is going to progress faster if they train three hours a week instead of just one. Wanting to move faster some might see as a product of impatience.

A student wants to get from point A to point B where point B is reaching a certain level of knowledge and skill within their marital art. If the student trains three hours a week a week its safe to say that the student will reach point B sooner than if they were to instead just train one hour a week.

By training three hours a week the student will reach point B sooner, it won't take the student less time, but they will get their sooner.

By wanting to get their sooner and taking necessary action to get their sooner (training three hours a week instead of just one) some might say the student is being impatient.

I think it depends on context. If I want to get to my friend's house quicker, so I run instead of walk, that doesn't mean I'm impatient, it just means I want to travel faster. If I want to get to my friend's house quicker, so I shirk my chores so I can leave early, and shove old ladies aside because they're in my way, I'm impatient.

If I train more so I can learn more, I'm not impatient. If I train more because I need X hours to qualify for my belt, that's impatience, but also more a flaw in the system where you progress based on time instead of tests.

 

[pdg]

By wanting to get their sooner and taking necessary action to get their sooner (training three hours a week instead of just one) some might say the student is being impatient.

I have never seen that be suggested, apart from by you.

One reason it's not impatient is because, all else being equal, it actually takes the same amount of time to get there.

If at one hour a week it takes 12 weeks, that's 12 hours.

3 hours a week it takes 4 weeks, that's 12 hours.


On the other hand, someone doing 1 hour a week but expecting to progress at the same pace as someone else doing 3 hours - that might be impatient. Or deluded...


And then there's something else. As a beginner I could grade once every 6 months if I did 1 hour a week.

If I did two hours, I could grade every 3 months.

If I did 7 hours, I could grade every 3 months - but likely perform better.

Impatient?

Whatever.

 

[skribs]

I have never seen that be suggested, apart from by you.

One reason it's not impatient is because, all else being equal, it actually takes the same amount of time to get there.

If at one hour a week it takes 12 weeks, that's 12 hours.

3 hours a week it takes 4 weeks, that's 12 hours.


On the other hand, someone doing 1 hour a week but expecting to progress at the same pace as someone else doing 3 hours - that might be impatient. Or deluded...


And then there's something else. As a beginner I could grade once every 6 months if I did 1 hour a week.

If I did two hours, I could grade every 3 months.

If I did 7 hours, I could grade every 3 months - but likely perform better.

Impatient?

Whatever.

It could also be someone training twice as much and wondering why they're not progressing twice as fast (because part of it is how much you train, but part of it is experience that comes through time). While I think someone who trains 2-3 times a week will progress more than 2-3 times as fast as someone who trains once a week, I also think that someone who trains 6 times a week will see diminishing returns, and maybe only progress 50% faster than that 3x person. This is because you can only digest so much learning at once and it takes time to process.

There's also people who think because they go twice as much, they only half to practice half as hard, to get the same benefit.

In those contexts I can see it mattering. But in the amount of time OP is suggesting, more practice would be better for everything.

 

[CB Jones]

some might say the student is being impatient.

Ok and some might say they are just eager to learn...

Does it really matter what some might say? Seems like it is splitting hairs.

At the minnimum you have a student that has a high level of interest....which I would think is a good "problem" to have.

 

[daviddz]

added to which if you have sufficient free time to donate five nights a week to ma training, there is something distinctly missing in your life and you need to work on your people skills rather than conce trzting on how to hurt them

Interesting point of view, but not entirely accurate. I train 5 days a week at the dojo, and it is something I do with my daughter, and my other half. It is a family activity. I have also met some great people there. There are a lot of people skills that can be learned and practiced while training.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[JR 137]

Interesting point of view, but not entirely accurate. I train 5 days a week at the dojo, and it is something I do with my daughter, and my other half. It is a family activity. I have also met some great people there. There are a lot of people skills that can be learned and practiced while training.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

This is going to sound crazy, but Jobo has a good point with his post you quoted. However, there’s an exception to every rule. And yours seems like a valid exception.

 

[JR 137]

This sounds like an excuse. You should be practicing what your instructor taught you and building that muscle memory so you can learn more next class.

We have a girl in my school, around 10 years old, and she's quickly becoming one of my favorite students. She doesn't grasp all of the concepts right away, and she struggles mightily with a lot of things when she gets a new belt. But the thing about her is, I give her one piece of advice every class, and every class she comes in and I can tell she has practiced and destroyed whatever advice I gave her. That leaves her ready to accept the next piece next time.

Most of the other students don't do this. I don't know if they just don't practice at all, or if they "practice" by just playing around, but a lot of the other students it takes longer for them to iron out these details. If I give a kid advice on something, and next class they're still working at it, I let them struggle with it for a couple weeks before I bring it up again. Some kids, I bring up the same thing every couple of weeks, and it's clear they are not practicing at home with the presence of mind to fix this issue. They take forever to progress in their skills and in their belts.

A beginner should be practicing what they were taught, so they can be ready to learn the next lesson.

Yes and no. I won’t practice things I haven’t fully memorized yet. I learned that one the hard way during my first year of my first stint in karate. I was taught a new kata one day. A very simple kata, relatively speaking - Sanchin. The day I was taught it, I went home and practiced over and over. I did it a good 100 times. I felt pretty good about it. I went to class the next day and realized I practiced it wrong, having turned when I wasn’t supposed to and subsequently having the wrong foot forward for most of the kata. It must’ve taken me a good 500 times to fully get rid of the mistake from muscle memory.

From the on, I won’t practice something new until I can comfortably go through it without being prompted.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Right, I am not taking "homework" into account, where you train on your own at home, as that would make the discussion more complicated. Besides, doing too much homework as a beginner can be detrimental in that you can develop bad habits. As a beginner much of your training should be done under the supervision of an instructor so you don't practice the wrong way to do it.

For sake of discussion and for sake of simplicity in my example, our hypothetical student who chooses to train one hour instead of three hours a week, or three hours instead of one hour a week, that's class time. Lets say the student does the same amount of homework in both cases. Again, I am using small numbers for sake of simplicity. Using bigger numbers for the training hours can bring into question the issue of overtraining which would make the discussion that much more complicated. So in my example the student is a beginner in which case you wouldn't want to do too much homework and you wouldn't want to overtrain. But in all fairness, even most beginning students can handle three hours a week so lets say that our imaginary student in this case can handle that amount without overdoing it.

I'd actually be quite happy if my brand new students practiced significantly outside class. The first things they get are pretty simple, and I expect them to learn them wrong. It's easier to correct a problem once it happens than to try to figure out what they're going to learn wrong. Thus, they're going to make significant mistakes if I'm watching. They're better off getting in some repetitions between classes, so I can get them corrected at each class.

 

[jobo]

Interesting point of view, but not entirely accurate. I train 5 days a week at the dojo, and it is something I do with my daughter, and my other half. It is a family activity. I have also met some great people there. There are a lot of people skills that can be learned and practiced while training.


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no not entirely accurate, nothing is ! if you have a martial arts family equally dedicated( obsessed) as you are then that makes you a significant exception, it's not at all common. but the other members may not actually be as dedicated as you think they are, or may not remain so indefinitely and you could be storing up resentments/ disatisfactions that may come back to haunt later.

my father's obsessions were fishing and rugby, both of which he took me to as a young child, both of which I didn't mmine to much,but not at all in the frequency and the duration he indulged in. but I didn't have the courage to tell him as 9 yo, so I spent significant parts of my childhood bored out of my mind when I much sooner he did what I wanted to, in retrospect he considered himself an involved father, I considered him extremely selfish for not giving up some of his hobby times to indulge mine

either way, even if the others are indeed equally dedicated, your not doing them any favours in building a well rounded character with multiple interests and experiences

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no not entirely accurate, nothing is ! if you have a martial arts family equally dedicated( obsessed) as you are then that makes you a significant exception, it's not at all common. but the other members may not actually be as dedicated as you think they are, or may not remain so indefinitely and you could be storing up resentments/ disatisfactions that may come back to haunt later.

my father's obsessions were fishing and rugby, both of which he took me to as a young child, both of which I didn't mmine to much,but not at all in the frequency and the duration he indulged in. but I didn't have the courage to tell him as 9 yo, so I spent significant parts of my childhood bored out of my mind when I much sooner he did what I wanted to, in retrospect he considered himself an involved father, I considered him extremely selfish for not giving up some of his hobby times to indulge mine

either way, even if the others are indeed equally dedicated, your not doing them any favours in building a well rounded character with multiple interests and experiences

Really? You're going to give completely generic life advice about how much time someone should spend doing MA, when there's no problem in evidence?

 

[jobo]

Really? You're going to give completely generic life advice about how much time someone should spend doing MA, when there's no problem in evidence?

it's an opinion piece, I'd say exactly the same to anyone who has allowed an obsession to effect the ballance of their life, even if every one is happy, its unhealthy to follow one hobby to the exclusion of others, be that stamp collecting or soccer or chess or what ever. but their choice
with children its potentially damaging to lack a ballance of stimulus and exposure to different expexperience, parents should be telling them to stop playing so many computer game, playing so much soccer or spending so much time doing ma, not encouraging them as it fits their agenda

I
and I say that as someone who has a tendency to be come obsessive about thing, currently music,which I have to guard against at the very least it makes you a very dull companion

 

[skribs]

Yes and no. I won’t practice things I haven’t fully memorized yet. I learned that one the hard way during my first year of my first stint in karate. I was taught a new kata one day. A very simple kata, relatively speaking - Sanchin. The day I was taught it, I went home and practiced over and over. I did it a good 100 times. I felt pretty good about it. I went to class the next day and realized I practiced it wrong, having turned when I wasn’t supposed to and subsequently having the wrong foot forward for most of the kata. It must’ve taken me a good 500 times to fully get rid of the mistake from muscle memory.

From the on, I won’t practice something new until I can comfortably go through it without being prompted.

This is why I tell people to practice new forms at home a couple steps at a time. Or a lot of our students will have a parent video the form so they can study it at home.