Moo Duk Kwan?

[EmperorOfKentukki]

I dont see why peopel are so angry at the Moo Duk Kwan.

Oh....please don't be confused. Most are not angry at the MDK...just the current leadership and some of their decisions. But you are correct in that if you are not a SBD practitioner today, then you are definitely not MDK. But that doesn't mean you 'weren't' ever MDK. I trained and tested and ranked in TSD in the MDK in Seoul in 1984. The MDK didn't officially drop TSD as it art unitl 1995. And even today they still have some TSD Hyung in their system. So many can legitimately say they have a lineage to/through the MDK. I think the majority of people who have expressed their displeasure with the MDK are thinking about some of the egotiscal and nasty letters that were mailed out to several instructors who had given their sweat, heart and soul to the MDK for many years only to be accused of bringing 'impurities' to the school and not following 'moo do' like a good little drone should. Making threats to financially ruin people with protracted legal battles is a poor demonstration of Kyum Son if you ask me. And it is ludicrous to tell people that after 20 years of practicing forms they have to suddenly either stop teaching them or start paying a royalty to the MDK. They say they are an organiztion devoted to education....but they seem to be more worried about protecting a franchise. I don't remember my University ever sending me a letter saying I have to pay them everytime I counsel someone.

The Emperor

 

[exile]

I don't want to churn things up still more, just seek a bit of additional clarification on the name`Moo Duk Kwan'. Isn't it the case that the Kwan split when the WTF was formed, with some members of the MDK going with the WTF? Richard Chun has a two-volume set of books called Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwan Do; I gathered from this that he was one who threw in his lot with the WTF way back when... is this an accurate summary of what happened?

 

[Makalakumu]

Naw, we're hashing over stuff that happened after that. All of it is ******** in the end. The bottom line is this, you can't control what other people do, but you can control what you do.

Control what YOU do.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Master Chun indeed was a MDK TSD practitioner that went along with the Kwan consolidation and the TKD movement. While Hwang Kee never authorized nor approved of any MDK members participating in the TKD movement, that didn't keep members from believing that TKD was the way to go. The Korean Taekwondo Association, during its initial phase catorized the various member under 5 recognized Kwans...and they listed MDK as one of them. They didn't have a right to do this...but that didn't keep them from doing it anyway.

THe Emperor

 

[exile]

Master Chun indeed was a MDK TSD practitioner that went along with the Kwan consolidation and the TKD movement. While Hwang Kee never authorized nor approved of any MDK members participating in the TKD movement, that didn't keep members from believing that TKD was the way to go. The Korean Taekwondo Association, during its initial phase catorized the various member under 5 recognized Kwans...and they listed MDK as one of them. They didn't have a right to do this...but that didn't keep them from doing it anyway.

THe Emperor

EoK---thanks for the clarification; that dovetails with what I had thought.

Naw, we're hashing over stuff that happened after that.

Right, UpNKy, I knew that was later---what I meant was, was my statement correct about the TKD/TSD split within MDK, before any of the other stuff you guys were posting about happened. Apart from that, though, I hadn't realized that MDK had gone through so many convulsions as it seems to have...

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Actually, I think all the intrigue of the MDK is what makes it such an interesting study.

I know. Typical American, right?! LOL!

The Emperor

 

[exile]

Actually, I think all the intrigue of the MDK is what makes it such an interesting study.

I know. Typical American, right?! LOL!

The Emperor

Nah, we Canucks are the same in that respect :wink1: Anything with a sufficiently complex history... I have to say, the MDK saga is way more convoluted than I had realized.

The world (some of it, anyway) is ready for a definitive history of the post -WWII MA scene in Korea, with the story of the Kwans a major focus. I never quite have the sense that I understand how things really worked then, no matter how much stuff on it I read.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Ok,
So I dont see why people care if they are part of the Moo Duk Kwan or not. If you disagree with the concepts being taught in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan then dont use the name/logo. There is such a thing a copyright. If you wanted to use Coca-Cola to help out out business without Coca-Cola's consent and they brought you to court, it would be understandable, right? I dont see why peopel are so angry at the Moo Duk Kwan.
Just one question: why did you start training? Was it for self defence, or better health, better flexability, just to train, to have fun, etc? Or was it to insult another art? To play politics? what?
I do take offence to your incorret criticism of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and I dont think that this was the origional intent of the person posting this.

Dillon,
In my posting here, I am not stating any issue of discontent with the Moo Duk Kwan of with H.C. Hwang regarding the use of the name “Moo Duk Kwan” in any non Federation schools.

I was simply clarifying what it means to be a “Moo Duk Kwan” practitioner. Most of the people asking about this specific issue do not understand the difference between the “art” and the “organization”. It was my intention to clarify this difference, not bash the Federation or H.C. Hwang for going after those who choose to use the name “Moo Duk Kwan” in their association or school name when they are not members of H.C. Hwang’s Federation…


You may have misunderstood what I was stating…

 

[Dillon Hall]

Oh....please don't be confused. Most are not angry at the MDK...just the current leadership and some of their decisions. But you are correct in that if you are not a SBD practitioner today, then you are definitely not MDK. But that doesn't mean you 'weren't' ever MDK. I trained and tested and ranked in TSD in the MDK in Seoul in 1984. The MDK didn't officially drop TSD as it art unitl 1995. And even today they still have some TSD Hyung in their system. So many can legitimately say they have a lineage to/through the MDK. I think the majority of people who have expressed their displeasure with the MDK are thinking about some of the egotiscal and nasty letters that were mailed out to several instructors who had given their sweat, heart and soul to the MDK for many years only to be accused of bringing 'impurities' to the school and not following 'moo do' like a good little drone should. Making threats to financially ruin people with protracted legal battles is a poor demonstration of Kyum Son if you ask me. And it is ludicrous to tell people that after 20 years of practicing forms they have to suddenly either stop teaching them or start paying a royalty to the MDK. They say they are an organiztion devoted to education....but they seem to be more worried about protecting a franchise. I don't remember my University ever sending me a letter saying I have to pay them everytime I counsel someone.

The Emperor

I know that people were part of the Moo Duk Kwan at one point, that was not what I was intending to argue. What I meant was that when so much **** happened during the transition why people felt that they couldn't continue to practice their art. I realize that a lot of people were hurt during that time, though I think that it is time to let it go a little. If we forever remain angry, then it will give us all a bad feeling and eventually hurt our reputation. If people still want to use the Moo Duk Kwan symbol, then they can re-join the Moo Duk Kwan, just as any other place with a copyright would require.
I also don't understand what you mean by "I don't remember my University ever sending me a letter saying I have to pay them everytime I counsel someone." What is that supposed to mean? I counsel people all the time, and I don't pay anything. As for the fee to stay part of the Moo Duk Kwan, much of that money spent on keeping the organization together. Sure some is also spent in legal disputes and I wont argue against that. But I don't see why it's such a big deal to people. If you don't want to be associated with the Moo Duk Kwan, then change your name, logo, etc and be rid of it. You can't use a place's logo just because you want to. You need permission. It is a law.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Ah. You must not be aware of the letters that got sent out to selected Sabomnims telling them if they ever teach a Chil Sung or Yuk Ro form to a student then the MDK is entitled to a percentage of their collected tuitions from that student.

And my reference to college was an example of this type of behavior. What if every time you did something you learned in college in your professional life, you alma mata required you to send them part of your payroll check. What the current leadership in the MDK was saying to those Sabomnims were the same kind of thing. And that is what pissed people off. Most that left the MDK did't have any ill feeling over not advertising themselves at a MDK school anymore, nor were they put off by not using the MDK symbol anymore. It wasn't the loss of the symbols that bothered folks...it was the hypocracy of them saying people lacked humility and loyalty and then they turn around and tell them they have to control the forms because if they didn't it would cause the MDK to be impure. That along with demanding money is a left handed way of saying, "You are all beneath us....and you are theives." It would probably piss you off if the the Okinawan Shorin-ryu Federation sent you a letter demanding a percentage of your income because you taught your student the Pyong Ahn forms....as these were originally the Pinan forms of the Shorin-ryu founders. The MDK leadership has broken faith with the Kodanja. Look around the MDK today. You don't see too many of the old Kodanja from the first days as members (and no...it isn't because they are all dead now...because they aren't. Don't belive me....ask Charles Ferarro....or Dan Segarra....or Andy Ahpo).

The Emperor

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Ah. You must not be aware of the letters that got sent out to selected Sabomnims telling them if they ever teach a Chil Sung or Yuk Ro form to a student then the MDK is entitled to a percentage of their collected tuitions from that student.

And my reference to college was an example of this type of behavior. What if every time you did something you learned in college in your professional life, you alma mata required you to send them part of your payroll check. What the current leadership in the MDK was saying to those Sabomnims were the same kind of thing. And that is what pissed people off. Most that left the MDK did't have any ill feeling over not advertising themselves at a MDK school anymore, nor were they put off by not using the MDK symbol anymore. It wasn't the loss of the symbols that bothered folks...it was the hypocracy of them saying people lacked humility and loyalty and then they turn around and tell them they have to control the forms because if they didn't it would cause the MDK to be impure. That along with demanding money is a left handed way of saying, "You are all beneath us....and you are theives." It would probably piss you off if the the Okinawan Shorin-ryu Federation sent you a letter demanding a percentage of your income because you taught your student the Pyong Ahn forms....as these were originally the Pinan forms of the Shorin-ryu founders. The MDK leadership has broken faith with the Kodanja. Look around the MDK today. You don't see too many of the old Kodanja from the first days as members (and no...it isn't because they are all dead now...because they aren't. Don't belive me....ask Charles Ferarro....or Dan Segarra....or Andy Ahpo).

The Emperor

I agree. Folks like Andy Ahpo MADE TSD in the United States and, IIRC, they were more or less thrown away by the association. Still, I think TSD is better off anyway as these American instructors you mentioned, IMO, are better trained and teach a finer style than their former masters - GM Hwang Kee excepted, of course.

 

[Butch]

D. Hall,
You want to know why people get pissed off? Then talk to some of the members of the Moo Duk Kwan that made it what it was. Ask H. C. Hwang why he went after his instructor, who helped his father build the Moo Duk Kwan for over 30 years. You can also ask him where the patch your so proud of came from, here is a hint it wasn't Hwang Kee.
Butch