Mom Barred From Park For Breast Feeding

[Stac3y]

Okay. And all of this is your opinion. Seriously. Study after study also shows that after 12 months old, a child no longer needs the nutrition offered by formula or breast milk. At that point, it's no longer biological. It's psychological and emotional, which gets much, much more gray.
<snip>

Personally, and I said it earlier in the thread, 2 year old kids should in most cases be drinking from a cup, and eating solid foods with a fork or spoon. I wouldn't call out parents who choose to do otherwise, but certainly by 3 or 4, we're bordering on a creepy kind of codependence. I stand by that statement, personal or not. I never intended it to be taken otherwise. At 3 or 4 years old, we're no longer talking about nursing a baby.

Please do some more research. The prevailing opinion among experts on nursing is that kids should wean when THEY are ready, not when it's convenient for mom. That's why one of mine weaned at 13 months, and the other at 3.5 years. That's when they were ready. There's nothing creepy or codependent about it, and psychological needs and emotional bonding are every bit as important as nutrition. Once a child starts eating solid food, nursing generally becomes a once or twice a day event. My younger child nursed only at bedtime from around a year on. Additionally, nursing past a year old continues to confer immunity and provide protection against allergy and asthma.

Both of my sons are extremely well-adjusted, high achievers, whose behavior is considered exemplary by their teachers and other adults (though they can be a bit of a pain at home, like all kids.) Neither one is at all a mama's boy, either. You can get more information on breastfeeding at http://lllusa.org/.

 

[Steve]

Please do some more research. The prevailing opinion among experts on nursing is that kids should wean when THEY are ready, not when it's convenient for mom. That's why one of mine weaned at 13 months, and the other at 3.5 years. That's when they were ready. There's nothing creepy or codependent about it, and psychological needs and emotional bonding are every bit as important as nutrition. Once a child starts eating solid food, nursing generally becomes a once or twice a day event. My younger child nursed only at bedtime from around a year on. Additionally, nursing past a year old continues to confer immunity and provide protection against allergy and asthma.

Both of my sons are extremely well-adjusted, high achievers, whose behavior is considered exemplary by their teachers and other adults (though they can be a bit of a pain at home, like all kids.) Neither one is at all a mama's boy, either. You can get more information on breastfeeding at http://lllusa.org/.

At this point, maybe I should just step back myself. I never said that psychological or emotional needs are unimportant. I said that at 12 months old, the biological need isn't there. I also said that at 3 or 4, it's codependence. I still stand by that. It's like kids at that age who still use a bottle. Of course, this is speaking only for me and my kids. I don't presume to speak on behalf of any other parents. Take it for what it's worth.

I would like to back up a little and just ask the question. If you were on a public bus, and a 3 or 4 year old toddler literally pulls his mom's boob out of her bra, telling her in a complete sentence that he's hungry, would you consider that discreet or indiscreet?

 

[Flea]

From the Onion's article on Janet Jackson a few years back ... :angel:

Personally I think the whole breast-feeding squeamishness says more about our discomfort as a society with sexuality. The whole point of breasts is for feeding offspring. As a culture we have sexualized that body part arbitrarily, and therefore making it visible in public is "obscene" simply by its miscategorization. The unspoken agreement being that anything sexual is bad and must be hidden from view lest our eyes be stricken with blindness from the awfulness of it all.

Not that it'll happen, but I think it would be enormously helpful for Americans to have an open discussion about what we constitute as sexual, what aspects of it are "good" and "bad," and why.

 

[Stac3y]

I would like to back up a little and just ask the question. If you were on a public bus, and a 3 or 4 year old toddler literally pulls his mom's boob out of her bra, telling her in a complete sentence that he's hungry, would you consider that discreet or indiscreet?

Discreet or indiscreet isn't really the question, here. A 3 or 4 year old should have been taught by that time (in fact, much sooner), that nursing is not self-serve. Asking in a complete sentence if s/he can nurse, and respecting the mother's authority when she says either yes or no, is appropriate behavior for a child of that age. For toddler (NOT infants) establishing nursing as something that is asked for and given only in appropriate circumstances is important for teaching children to respect other people's bodies and develop boundaries between themselves and others.

Now, if the 3 or 4 year old says, "Mama, I'm hungry, may I nurse?" I have no problem with the child being allowed to nurse on the bus, and I don't think it's indiscreet. Yanking Mom's breast out of her shirt is a whole other story, and indicates a serious lack of corrective guidance in the home. I've heard of this behavior, but I've never seen it, even here in hippy-dippy Austin. Nursing a toddler doesn't mean letting him/her treat you disrespectfully.

 

[Steve]

Discreet or indiscreet isn't really the question, here. A 3 or 4 year old should have been taught by that time (in fact, much sooner), that nursing is not self-serve. Asking in a complete sentence if s/he can nurse, and respecting the mother's authority when she says either yes or no, is appropriate behavior for a child of that age. For toddler (NOT infants) establishing nursing as something that is asked for and given only in appropriate circumstances is important for teaching children to respect other people's bodies and develop boundaries between themselves and others.

Now, if the 3 or 4 year old says, "Mama, I'm hungry, may I nurse?" I have no problem with the child being allowed to nurse on the bus, and I don't think it's indiscreet. Yanking Mom's breast out of her shirt is a whole other story, and indicates a serious lack of corrective guidance in the home. I've heard of this behavior, but I've never seen it, even here in hippy-dippy Austin. Nursing a toddler doesn't mean letting him/her treat you disrespectfully.

Thanks, Stacey. Discreet or not was exactly the question MBuzzy asked, so it was the point of the story. Outside of that, I agree with you that there are other things going on.

I'm still not convinced that there's any legitimate or even healthy psychological/emotional reason for a 3+ year old to be nursing, but I'm neither a mom nor a pediatrician, so I'll cede the point.

 

[MBuzzy]

Personally I think the whole breast-feeding squeamishness says more about our discomfort as a society with sexuality. The whole point of breasts is for feeding offspring. As a culture we have sexualized that body part arbitrarily, and therefore making it visible in public is "obscene" simply by its miscategorization. The unspoken agreement being that anything sexual is bad and must be hidden from view lest our eyes be stricken with blindness from the awfulness of it all.

Not that it'll happen, but I think it would be enormously helpful for Americans to have an open discussion about what we constitute as sexual, what aspects of it are "good" and "bad," and why.

While I agree with you, it is nothing new. There was a time when it was obscene for women to show their calves, because that was known as the most sensual part of the female figure. At one point it was the neck and I'm sure it will continue to evolve.

 

[Steve]

MBuzzy, do you understand now what is meant by discretion? Do you agree?

 

[MBuzzy]

MBuzzy, do you understand now what is meant by discretion? Do you agree?

Sorry, I had to put the baby to bed!

Well, first off, you had one bad experience years ago and that stinks that this person seems to have shaped your opinion of breastfeeding women. I most certainly understand the definition (Thanks MJS ) of the WORD discretion. Not what I was talking about though.

An example is great....and I agree, there is plenty wrong with that example. I think the child was a bit old (although that choice is up to the mother) and I think that the mother should have taught her child better. Definitely indiscreet. In fact, just by discussing, we have already pointed out that even in THAT situation, there was a line where she could have been discreet and where she was not, even with it being a 4 year old kid. But then based on that, I could say that "Martial Arts instructors should really stop just handing out belts for nothing" based on a single school. One bad instructor DOES NOT characterize all others. In fact, I would say that the vast majority of breastfeeding mothers ARE very discreet.

The point that I was really trying to make is that DEFINING discreet is not going to work in this case. I mean, I know what discreet is and I know what common sense is, but those definitions ARE NOT universally interpreted. Everyone has different thresholds for those things.

When I say that I challenge someone to DEFINE IT, I mean let's put some explicit limits on it. But that is kind of rhetorical, because even if you apply your limits, then we can argue for 4 more pages about where those limits are. It is going to be different for everyone. One person may think that discreet is not showing any skin, another may say that discreet is always moving yourself from where others can see and others may think that feeding their 4 year old child on a bus is perfectly discreet. I would disagree....but that is how someone may feel.

Bottom line here is that saying that women should be discreet honestly accomplishes nothing. I feel that my wife is VERY discreet, others disagree. The manager that kicks a woman out of a Johnny Rockets for breastfeeding obviously thought that she wasn't discreet. LUCKILY, the laws that do exist PROTECT a woman and allow her to feed anywhere that she wants in fact, many of them go so far as to say that as long as she's feeding, she CANNOT be prosecuted for indecent exposure. It seems that the lawmakers have ruled on what is discreet and what isn't. Basically, you can feed your child, they didn't add stipulations that say "You can feed your child, but only if no one around you can see skin."

 

[Steve]

Sorry, I had to put the baby to bed!

Me too. Although she goes to be pretty early.

Well, first off, you had one bad experience years ago and that stinks that this person seems to have shaped your opinion of breastfeeding women. I most certainly understand the definition (Thanks MJS ) of the WORD discretion. Not what I was talking about though.

NO! Jesus Christ, you're missing the entire point. She didn't shape my opinion of breastfeeding women. She DID very clearly shape my opinion of an indiscreet breastfeeding woman. You "challenged" anyone to define the term. I gave you a perfect example. Outside of that, though, I've gone out of my way to make it very clear that I have no problem with women who nurse their babies in public. It's just not a big deal... unless the woman goes out of her way to be indiscreet.

An example is great....and I agree, there is plenty wrong with that example. I think the child was a bit old (although that choice is up to the mother) and I think that the mother should have taught her child better. Definitely indiscreet. In fact, just by discussing, we have already pointed out that even in THAT situation, there was a line where she could have been discreet and where she was not, even with it being a 4 year old kid. But then based on that, I could say that "Martial Arts instructors should really stop just handing out belts for nothing" based on a single school. One bad instructor DOES NOT characterize all others. In fact, I would say that the vast majority of breastfeeding mothers ARE very discreet.[/qjuote]And honestly, I can't think of anyone so far who would disagree with you that the vast majority of breastfeeding mothers ARE very discreet. It's the ones who aren't to whom I'm referring. And there are some. That's all. And those who aren't discreet... should be. Wouldn't you agree?

The point that I was really trying to make is that DEFINING discreet is not going to work in this case. I mean, I know what discreet is and I know what common sense is, but those definitions ARE NOT universally interpreted. Everyone has different thresholds for those things.

But we can agree that the woman on that bus meets the definition of indiscreet. Can't we?

When I say that I challenge someone to DEFINE IT, I mean let's put some explicit limits on it. But that is kind of rhetorical, because even if you apply your limits, then we can argue for 4 more pages about where those limits are. It is going to be different for everyone. One person may think that discreet is not showing any skin, another may say that discreet is always moving yourself from where others can see and others may think that feeding their 4 year old child on a bus is perfectly discreet. I would disagree....but that is how someone may feel.

It seems to me that when MJS and I and others talk about discretion and common sense, we're not talking about any kind of gray area. We're talking about the oblivious moms who really only make things harder for the "vast majority" of nursing mothers who just want to feed their babies without making a big deal about the entire thing.

Bottom line here is that saying that women should be discreet honestly accomplishes nothing. I feel that my wife is VERY discreet, others disagree. The manager that kicks a woman out of a Johnny Rockets for breastfeeding obviously thought that she wasn't discreet. LUCKILY, the laws that do exist PROTECT a woman and allow her to feed anywhere that she wants in fact, many of them go so far as to say that as long as she's feeding, she CANNOT be prosecuted for indecent exposure. It seems that the lawmakers have ruled on what is discreet and what isn't. Basically, you can feed your child, they didn't add stipulations that say "You can feed your child, but only if no one around you can see skin."

And of course you're right, even if the child is 4 and pulling mom's boob out himself. Legally, there's no recourse. Doesn't mean I and everyone else around isn't forming an opinion about that person. And as you said, potentially about breastfeeding in general.

 

[Tez3]

When we have young drunk women pulling their tops up and showing off their boobs in pubs, clubs and the street most nights of the week, the subject of breast feeding in public seems a bit tame. If you only see boobs you can consider yourself lucky, skirts go up and down with increasing monotony leaving nothing to the imagination. I do wonder why it's the chubbier girls that feel the need to expose so much flesh though.
I wouldn't breastfeed beyond a year, there's nothing at that ppoint in breast milk they can't get in proper food. I find 4 years olds breast feeding to be a bit of a middle class fad tbh. It's difficult here as they start school at four, can't imagine teachers allowing mums in to feed their children.

 

[Blade96]

think the park wrong in kicking out the mum, but i do find breast feeding gross. Why? because lovers also use the nipples when making whoopee and then a mum gives that same nipple to a baby....:barf:

 

[Tez3]

think the park wrong in kicking out the mum, but i do find breast feeding gross. Why? because lovers also use the nipples when making whoopee and then a mum gives that same nipple to a baby....:barf:

Well, you could ask yourself why nature had us making love in the first place. . . . . . to make babies! Also why are breasts there?
If I see a mother breastfeeding my first reaction is one of warmth at a picture of love. It's one of those things that is a true symbol of how humans can be instead of how we are sometimes, it's the opposite of wars, cruelty, unhumanity and horror. It's love and us at our best. It's hope.
You may never understand unless you have put your baby to the nipple and looked into that baby's eyes and lost yourself in them, it is the most overwhelming emotion you will ever feel. There is nothing to compare. perhaps it works with bottles, I don't know but certainly that connection is missing, it is fundamental and goes to the very core of your being and you will never understand why something so tiny can do this to you but that bond is there for life and maybe even beyond. Religious or not there's no doubting this a miracle. Love and life.

 

[CoryKS]

think the park wrong in kicking out the mum, but i do find breast feeding gross. Why? because lovers also use the nipples when making whoopee and then a mum gives that same nipple to a baby....:barf:

Not sure if serious.

 

[Blade96]

Not sure if serious.

im serious. Its gross to me. the idea of it.

Of course maybe i shouldnt even be in this thread in first place. since Im probably the only one here who doesnt like babies.

I didnt agree with what the park did with the Mum, though.

 

[Tez3]

im serious. Its gross to me. the idea of it.

Of course maybe i shouldnt even be in this thread in first place. since Im probably the only one here who doesnt like babies.

I didnt agree with what the park did with the Mum, though.

I think you may want to have a good think about that, the idea of a women being merely for a mans pleasure I find somewhat disturbing. it may mean you aren't comfortable with your own body if you reject what your body is made for. There's no reason breasts can't be for pleasure as well but the primary function is to feed babies and most women are happy with their 'dual use'. To be grossed out by breast feeding is a little odd.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

There's no reason breasts can't be for pleasure as well but the primary function is to feed babies and most women are happy with their 'dual use'. To be grossed out by breast feeding is a little odd.

In all fairness, the majority of the time guys spend thinking about women's breasts is NOT in the context of feeding babies, so it's likely that seeing them used for that purpose may just be plain ackward. Along that line of thought, I wonder if there'd be a significant change in views on breastfeeding between bachelors and fathers, the latter being more exposed to nature's intended use.

 

[MJS]

At this point, maybe I should just step back myself. I never said that psychological or emotional needs are unimportant. I said that at 12 months old, the biological need isn't there. I also said that at 3 or 4, it's codependence. I still stand by that. It's like kids at that age who still use a bottle. Of course, this is speaking only for me and my kids. I don't presume to speak on behalf of any other parents. Take it for what it's worth.

I would like to back up a little and just ask the question. If you were on a public bus, and a 3 or 4 year old toddler literally pulls his mom's boob out of her bra, telling her in a complete sentence that he's hungry, would you consider that discreet or indiscreet?

IMO, I'd find that a bit indiscreet, however, I'm not going to hop off the bus prior to my destination, nor will I say something to her or to the driver. Of course, I'd also wonder what the hell a 3 or 4 yo child is doing breast feeding in the first place. LOL!

 

[MJS]

Discreet or indiscreet isn't really the question, here. A 3 or 4 year old should have been taught by that time (in fact, much sooner), that nursing is not self-serve. Asking in a complete sentence if s/he can nurse, and respecting the mother's authority when she says either yes or no, is appropriate behavior for a child of that age. For toddler (NOT infants) establishing nursing as something that is asked for and given only in appropriate circumstances is important for teaching children to respect other people's bodies and develop boundaries between themselves and others.

Now, if the 3 or 4 year old says, "Mama, I'm hungry, may I nurse?" I have no problem with the child being allowed to nurse on the bus, and I don't think it's indiscreet. Yanking Mom's breast out of her shirt is a whole other story, and indicates a serious lack of corrective guidance in the home. I've heard of this behavior, but I've never seen it, even here in hippy-dippy Austin. Nursing a toddler doesn't mean letting him/her treat you disrespectfully.

Actually, I think that it is the question, seeing that this is what sparked the incident in the first place. Whether or not a 2, 3 or 4yo should be nursing was, IMO, the potatoes, to the main meat of the original article.

 

[MJS]

When we have young drunk women pulling their tops up and showing off their boobs in pubs, clubs and the street most nights of the week, the subject of breast feeding in public seems a bit tame. If you only see boobs you can consider yourself lucky, skirts go up and down with increasing monotony leaving nothing to the imagination.

While I do see your point, the 2 incidents are most likely going to be viewed differently, I'd think. If we look at Mardi Gras, we see women lifting their shirts for beads. I wonder if they are getting arrested for public nudity?

I do wonder why it's the chubbier girls that feel the need to expose so much flesh though.

LOL, funny you say that, because I often wonder the same thing.

 

[Tez3]

In all fairness, the majority of the time guys spend thinking about women's breasts is NOT in the context of feeding babies, so it's likely that seeing them used for that purpose may just be plain ackward. Along that line of thought, I wonder if there'd be a significant change in views on breastfeeding between bachelors and fathers, the latter being more exposed to nature's intended use.

Fair enough but I wouldn't expect the same awkwardness or disgust from a woman which is what prompted my post.