MMA Misconception?

[Cryozombie]

You obviously have all us MMA people pegged, based I assume on the UFC and it's fans.

My opinion of MMA people's attitudes and beliefs come from "That other Board that will not be named while on Martial Talk."

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh wait a minute, I just figured out that it is not Tez's fault after all

:lisafault:

 

[jks9199]

Screw them, then, they shouldn't be in my line of fire! :roflmao:

I kid, I kid.

Are you counting the kids? One kid, one kid... Really, I'd have to say one is too many... but that's just my opinion!

 

[KenpoTex]

Just some random musings to stir the pot a little since I'm in a contrary mood tonight

(note: if your reason for training isn't primarily or exclusively for self-defense, I'm not going to argue with you...ignore everything that follows.)

I feel, since we are training to prevail in a close-quarters fight, we want the most efficient and effective self-defense system possible. We naturally [should] want a method or platform that leaves us well-rounded in our abilities to deal with all ranges of combat. We need a system that has long-range striking tools; trapping/standup-grappling/clinch-work (whatever you choose to call it); takedowns; takedown-defense; groundfighting; realistic empty-hand defense against knife attacks and handgun presentations; effective, tactically sound deployment and use of modern weapons (knives, impact weapons, handguns, etc.); and an emphasis on the proper combative mindset (and the many peripheral issues related to the proper mindset). Furthermore, we need these skills to be integrated so that we can address all of these situations in a fluid manner as they present themselves. In other words, we don't want disparate skillsets that do not allow us to transition from one to the next as needed with a minimum of "re-orientation" (remember the OODA-Loop?).
Pretty tall order right?

You'll notice, I have some of the list above highlighted in red, and some in blue. The skillsets highlighted in red are the very backbone of MMA training and IMO, form about the best "launching platform" or "delivery system" available. note: for the purposes of this discussion, I'm defining MMA as a system that combines, in some form or fashion, elements of western Boxing, Muay Thai, Greco-Roman Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Now here's a question: Can someone name any other single system that teaches those skillsets (still talking about the ones in red) as effectively, as seamlessly, and with the same level of intensity and contact as MMA (please back up your choice...don't just say "we do")?
If (and I'm just saying "if") MMA does the best job of preparing someone to fight empty-handed regardless of the range or position (due to the material taught and the intensive nature of the training), might that not account for the arrogance that one sometimes encounters when dealing with some MMA practicioners?

On to the "blue list"...
The skillsets I highlighted in blue are, I think, where most people have the biggest hang-up with MMA: "oh, but MMA doesn't address or doesn't allow ____"
Well, that's correct for the most part...but *news flash* neither do most TMAs. I don't think I'm reaching at all by saying that, regardless of the system studied, we're going to have to plug a few gaps and supplement the material with outside training.
This being the case --question time-- Wouldn't it make sense to have a "base" in a method that at least gives us a very robust, workable platform upon which to build? I think that this might be another thought process that contributes to some of the attitudes that we sometimes see.

Not really sure where else I was going to go with this...just thinking out loud.

 

[Tez3]

My opinion of MMA people's attitudes and beliefs come from "That other Board that will not be named while on Martial Talk."

....who don't actually train, practice or fight MMA of course and also disrespect and bad mouth every other style of MA there is.

MMA people do MMA for the sport, they train self defence for self defence, like when you're at school you know, different subjects, related of course but different and not mutally exclusive.

 

[Cryozombie]

....who don't actually train, practice or fight MMA of course and also disrespect and bad mouth every other style of MA there is.

Maybe, but they come across as "This is what we do" and you are right, they disrespect and bad mouth anything else...

Therefore they have colored my opinion of MMA people as being "MMA RULES, everyone else Sux0rs."

Shame what they have done to peoples opinion of your art.

 

[Tez3]

Maybe, but they come across as "This is what we do" and you are right, they disrespect and bad mouth anything else...

Therefore they have colored my opinion of MMA people as being "MMA RULES, everyone else Sux0rs."

Shame what they have done to peoples opinion of your art.

Personally before I come to an opinion on anything I try to find out about it for myself not rely on what other people say, I certainly wouldn't base any opinion on what is written on the internet by people I've no reason to believe even know how to write correctly. To form an opinion on thousands of people, in Europe, Asia and the UK as well as the States on a few ignoramuses who post on a forum that is well known for being full of BS is somewhat naive don't you feel? Do you also feel then that everyone shares your opinion just because of that one forum? Shame on them then not shame on us.

 

[Cryozombie]

Not so different than say, polling 1000 people, and coming to the conculsion that's an accurate representation of people around the world's opinions of Canada being the worlds greatest country, but there is a thread right here where that idea is being defended adamantly.

To be honest, I've personally spoken (as in F2F not online) to about a dozen MMA people in person... I've only heard the "Your art sucks, learn a real art" from maybe 4 of the 12... But if you count the numbers of people who claim to be MMA guys online (truthfully or not) that number flips and becomes somthing like 80% arrogance... Hell, I even had a prominent member of this board tell me that MMA training would prevent me from using a knife on an MMA attacker in a fight, and indicated that I was wasting my time practicing it. *rolls eyes*

Honestly, TEZ, I don't have an issue with MMA... as I indicated in my previous post, It makes good athletes, good fighters, and is good for what it is... But my issue is with the large number of practitioners who scream, that "It's MMA or its ********" attitude.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I'm gonna disagree with you about these things, but to an extent agree as well. Ok...

The first part? It's been happening a lot in my neighborhood latley... or at the very least, if they are armed, they have not been using weapons, just empty hands to beat and rob people.

The Second, I think there is an element of truth to that in the context of the part where you say "THINK"... but the fact is they can't always know going into it, so they can only assume, think, hope, whatever... and take a calculated risk... now in the one case here where 5 guys jumped a 15 year old kid, yeah, they were probably secure. But if they had jumped me, and I had my .45? *shrug* could have gone either way, eh?

.

Just a clarification that due to the disparity of force involved, in my view multiple opponents are not considered "unarmed" as their combined strength, weight and mobility( more pairs of feet equals more ground covered faster) can far outpace yours.

 

[The Anarchist]

My opinion of MMA people's attitudes and beliefs come from "That other Board that will not be named while on Martial Talk."

I go there to vent my frustrations built up over the week. It's very therapeutic.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I want to touch base on KenpoTex's post. Believe it or not, our schools curriculum actually does incorperate pretty much everything you have in both red and blue and that still gets quite a bit of critique. Including things like "Why do I have to learn all that extra garbage, it's just a waste of time"; to "there is just too much to learn"; to "they want us to be so versatile, there's no way to be good at it all." Some of these comments have some validity, but ours is an evolving system and we have curriculum all the way up through the higher dan rankings.

We started from a TMA base in TKD with an incorperation of hapkido and yudo. Back in the late '70's, the evolution began by incorperating the FMA's into the curriculum (under Remy Presas, Mike Innay and Jimmy Tacosa). We were first introduced to Muay Thai by Benny Urquidez in 1980 and began cross training and later trained with the trainers at the SF Fairtex camp (including Woodman, Dr. Knees, and the late Alex Gong). The same year, we started boxing out of Garden City gym. Many of our guys fought under full contact rules during the '80's (myself included) and several of us competed as amateur boxers with a few going pro. One of our founders, KJN Tony Thompson was one of the top promoters of the old PKA and later was co-founder of the ISKA. He passed the torch to Scott Coker who was the head of K-1 USA and Strikeforce MMA, so there has been a lot of oppurtunities for our guys to get fights if they were good enough and they wanted them.

When the Gracies first came over to the USA, we trained with both Ralf and Cesar and they had satelite programs in our schools.The basics of BJJ were then incorperated into our curriculum. Personally, I love tying people in knots and plan to compete in submission grappling tournaments if I heal properly from my surgeries. Another side program in one of our school's (Scott's) later became one of the more famous MMA training camps: AKA. For many years, many of the fighters and trainers at American Kickboxing Academy have worked out on Monday and Wednesday mornings with the senior black belts and staff members after our staff meetings. Both Frank Shamrock and Bob Cook have taught the black belt grappling and MMA classes at our headquarter school on a regular basis for years apeice.

We've also had Mike Swain come in and work judo with our senior black belts on a fairly regular basis and will often bring in members of the USA olympic judo team, some olympic wrestlers, and some very good sambo guys to play as well. We still incorperate some of our original TKD roots in there, but we are now functionally a MMA system (I'm jealous, KJN Ernie's school has a cage. I want a cage in my school, but my wife won't let me justify the cost or the space in ours. So I have to fly out there 2-3 weeks a yr. to play at our headquarters school. The fun part is that next week is one of those weeks).

As far as the training you listed in blue, part of the requirements for 4th dan and above include certification in the CDT system including weapons (knife and gun) disarms. Many of our guys are LRT certified, and many have went through RAMCAT's training as well. Adrenal stress training is incorperated into the training of our students as a regular part of the training after they have been in the program six months and forever afterward. In knife disarms. I use a shock knife to enhance adrenal stress for my black belts. Part of the test for 4th dan and above includes firearms training. We also train with SWAT teams and have in the past worked with Special Forces as part of our higher dan testing.

It is possible to include all the elements that you posted into a curriculum, but it does present problems of it's own. Among them is having SO much curriculum, it's hard to effectively teach it all. The syntax of what is taught can be a challenge as well. The fact that things are constantly evolving and skill sets need to be constantly upgraded means that we can never sit back on our laurels either. This past year I've had both knee and shoulder surgery and because of that, I've fallen a bit behind on the updates on the advanced curriculum despite spending two weeks out there already with my instructors and heading out this week as well.

The funny thing is that because of the notoriety of our demo team, many in the MA community consider us a "bunch of trickers and forms guys". Because of this, we even get the McDojo comment from some. The truth is that many of our teens and demo team members will spend time after classes working on their aerial kicks and "tricks", but it has never been part of our curiculum. Though after Mike Chat came out with his XMA, we did put an extra (non-mandatory) class in for the kids who wanted to work on this as well as TMA weapons. We also have a small bit of forms work in the TKD portion of out curriculum, but we don't use it as filler as a lot of schools do and it's just a vry small part of what we do.

 

[MJS]

Just some random musings to stir the pot a little since I'm in a contrary mood tonight

(note: if your reason for training isn't primarily or exclusively for self-defense, I'm not going to argue with you...ignore everything that follows.)

I feel, since we are training to prevail in a close-quarters fight, we want the most efficient and effective self-defense system possible. We naturally [should] want a method or platform that leaves us well-rounded in our abilities to deal with all ranges of combat. We need a system that has long-range striking tools; trapping/standup-grappling/clinch-work (whatever you choose to call it); takedowns; takedown-defense; groundfighting; realistic empty-hand defense against knife attacks and handgun presentations; effective, tactically sound deployment and use of modern weapons (knives, impact weapons, handguns, etc.); and an emphasis on the proper combative mindset (and the many peripheral issues related to the proper mindset). Furthermore, we need these skills to be integrated so that we can address all of these situations in a fluid manner as they present themselves. In other words, we don't want disparate skillsets that do not allow us to transition from one to the next as needed with a minimum of "re-orientation" (remember the OODA-Loop?).
Pretty tall order right?

You'll notice, I have some of the list above highlighted in red, and some in blue. The skillsets highlighted in red are the very backbone of MMA training and IMO, form about the best "launching platform" or "delivery system" available. note: for the purposes of this discussion, I'm defining MMA as a system that combines, in some form or fashion, elements of western Boxing, Muay Thai, Greco-Roman Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Now here's a question: Can someone name any other single system that teaches those skillsets (still talking about the ones in red) as effectively, as seamlessly, and with the same level of intensity and contact as MMA (please back up your choice...don't just say "we do")?
If (and I'm just saying "if") MMA does the best job of preparing someone to fight empty-handed regardless of the range or position (due to the material taught and the intensive nature of the training), might that not account for the arrogance that one sometimes encounters when dealing with some MMA practicioners?

On to the "blue list"...
The skillsets I highlighted in blue are, I think, where most people have the biggest hang-up with MMA: "oh, but MMA doesn't address or doesn't allow ____"
Well, that's correct for the most part...but *news flash* neither do most TMAs. I don't think I'm reaching at all by saying that, regardless of the system studied, we're going to have to plug a few gaps and supplement the material with outside training.
This being the case --question time-- Wouldn't it make sense to have a "base" in a method that at least gives us a very robust, workable platform upon which to build? I think that this might be another thought process that contributes to some of the attitudes that we sometimes see.

Not really sure where else I was going to go with this...just thinking out loud.

This is the very reason why I said in an earlier post, that I feel that MMA and TMA can and should learn from each other. I think it'd be safe to say that there are arts out there that address portions of what you said above, but 1 art that addresses every single thing....I havent seen it yet. Like I always say, if there was an art like that, every other school would probably close up shop.

So, if we go on the list above, I would have to say that there are some arts, while again, may not teach every aspect that you list, they do specialize in certain areas. Example: While Kenpo addresses various standing grappling attacks, ie: lapel grabs, chokes, bearhugs, it would probably be best to visit a BJJ school if you really wanted a solid understanding of the ground. Kenpo also addresses various weapons, however, it is my opinion, that the FMAs have that market cornered pretty well. Again, this isn't to say that other arts don't have good knife defense, but if I had to learn a knife defense, I'd be more inclined to study the FMAs, which I do.

On the other hand, MMA, IMO, isn't an art per se. It is a compilation of a number of arts blended into one. Fighters have coaches for each area, therefore, they too, are seeking out the best arts in order to make sure that their game is solid. So, if I wanted to learn good punching skills, I'm not going to seek out a BJJ school, but instead look to a striking art.

 

[MJS]

I want to touch base on KenpoTex's post. Believe it or not, our schools curriculum actually does incorperate pretty much everything you have in both red and blue and that still gets quite a bit of critique. Including things like "Why do I have to learn all that extra garbage, it's just a waste of time"; to "there is just too much to learn"; to "they want us to be so versatile, there's no way to be good at it all." Some of these comments have some validity, but ours is an evolving system and we have curriculum all the way up through the higher dan rankings.

We started from a TMA base in TKD with an incorperation of hapkido and yudo. Back in the late '70's, the evolution began by incorperating the FMA's into the curriculum (under Remy Presas, Mike Innay and Jimmy Tacosa). We were first introduced to Muay Thai by Benny Urquidez in 1980 and began cross training and later trained with the trainers at the SF Fairtex camp (including Woodman, Dr. Knees, and the late Alex Gong). The same year, we started boxing out of Garden City gym. Many of our guys fought under full contact rules during the '80's (myself included) and several of us competed as amateur boxers with a few going pro. One of our founders, KJN Tony Thompson was one of the top promoters of the old PKA and later was co-founder of the ISKA. He passed the torch to Scott Coker who was the head of K-1 USA and Strikeforce MMA, so there has been a lot of oppurtunities for our guys to get fights if they were good enough and they wanted them.

When the Gracies first came over to the USA, we trained with both Ralf and Cesar and they had satelite programs in our schools.The basics of BJJ were then incorperated into our curriculum. Personally, I love tying people in knots and plan to compete in submission grappling tournaments if I heal properly from my surgeries. Another side program in one of our school's (Scott's) later became one of the more famous MMA training camps: AKA. For many years, many of the fighters and trainers at American Kickboxing Academy have worked out on Monday and Wednesday mornings with the senior black belts and staff members after our staff meetings. Both Frank Shamrock and Bob Cook have taught the black belt grappling and MMA classes at our headquarter school on a regular basis for years apeice.

We've also had Mike Swain come in and work judo with our senior black belts on a fairly regular basis and will often bring in members of the USA olympic judo team, some olympic wrestlers, and some very good sambo guys to play as well. We still incorperate some of our original TKD roots in there, but we are now functionally a MMA system (I'm jealous, KJN Ernie's school has a cage. I want a cage in my school, but my wife won't let me justify the cost or the space in ours. So I have to fly out there 2-3 weeks a yr. to play at our headquarters school. The fun part is that next week is one of those weeks).

As far as the training you listed in blue, part of the requirements for 4th dan and above include certification in the CDT system including weapons (knife and gun) disarms. Many of our guys are LRT certified, and many have went through RAMCAT's training as well. Adrenal stress training is incorperated into the training of our students as a regular part of the training after they have been in the program six months and forever afterward. In knife disarms. I use a shock knife to enhance adrenal stress for my black belts. Part of the test for 4th dan and above includes firearms training. We also train with SWAT teams and have in the past worked with Special Forces as part of our higher dan testing.

It is possible to include all the elements that you posted into a curriculum, but it does present problems of it's own. Among them is having SO much curriculum, it's hard to effectively teach it all. The syntax of what is taught can be a challenge as well. The fact that things are constantly evolving and skill sets need to be constantly upgraded means that we can never sit back on our laurels either. This past year I've had both knee and shoulder surgery and because of that, I've fallen a bit behind on the updates on the advanced curriculum despite spending two weeks out there already with my instructors and heading out this week as well.

The funny thing is that because of the notoriety of our demo team, many in the MA community consider us a "bunch of trickers and forms guys". Because of this, we even get the McDojo comment from some. The truth is that many of our teens and demo team members will spend time after classes working on their aerial kicks and "tricks", but it has never been part of our curiculum. Though after Mike Chat came out with his XMA, we did put an extra (non-mandatory) class in for the kids who wanted to work on this as well as TMA weapons. We also have a small bit of forms work in the TKD portion of out curriculum, but we don't use it as filler as a lot of schools do and it's just a vry small part of what we do.

Great post. Its good to see schools like your that do this, and I'm fortunate that my school does the same. One of the black belts there, who also has his own school, is a purple belt in BJJ under Roy Harris. A number of teachers at my Kenpo school are all ranked in Arnis. So, alot of ground work has been added in and the weapon defenses, while we try to keep the Kenpo aspect to them, have Arnis added in.

Regarding the amount of material taught...there are set things that are added into the Kenpo material. For example, a Kenpo blue belt, may have to learn the first 6 disarms from Arnis. As they progress, certain things are added in as well. Is it the entire Arnis program? No, that is taught seperately, with the students having the option to train in that class if they wish and many do.

 

[Tez3]

I shall drag out my usual comment ..... MMA is a sport, it is the taking of various martial arts and using them to compete in a competition. Many martial artists compete in MMA competitions. They train for these competitions in a specific way, many of them also train in their own styles. Many train self defence as well.
Kwan Jang's excellent post sums up perfectly how most of the people I know in MMA think and work.
I've seen many TMA people deriding the fact that TMA schools "still have gradings and blackbelts etc mean nothing" yet one of the complaints you find from these same people is that MMA doesn't have gradings or belt systems!
kwan Jang, you can build your own cage quite cheaply! I know some guys over here that have for their clubs (we don't have MMA schools over here btw, we have clubs or teams) Hve fun next week though! Thank you for reminding us that martial arts has long had 'proper' fighters who go full contact too!

 

[Xue Sheng]

II've seen many TMA people deriding the fact that TMA schools "still have gradings and blackbelts etc mean nothing" yet one of the complaints you find from these same people is that MMA doesn't have gradings or belt systems!

Actually being a TCMA guy I have never been at a school that had a belt system and to be honest I see no reason for them other than tradition in some TMA styles. But as far a Chinese styles go belts are a fairly new additional and mostly for westerners. Nothing wrong with them if that is what you want I just don't want them.

MMA or TMA all the same it is just that there are a lot of attitudes out there on both sides for the fence practicing verbalfu. Both can and do train fighters

Truth is, IMO, all if trained properly are great for fighting the sad part is that there are a lot of TMA practitioners out there that think just by walking into the school and learning a few forms and throwing a few kicks you are now a death machine. And in MMA you get the same exact thing nowadays. And of course there is the arm-chair-mma and arm-chair-tma people that just add to the “beating the dead horse” mma vs tma discussion, rant, argument, donnybrook, brouhaha or whatever you want to call it

The only real difference I see between the average MMA persons training and the Average TMA persons training is one trains to fight and defeat his opponent and may or may not see him/her again in a match down the road, but under estimate a well trained MMA person and you will get hurt. The other trains to fight to defeat his opponent but generally never intends to use it (aka train to not fight) and plans to never see that opponent again and again if you under estimate a well trained TMA person it will get you hurt. Throw in some of the MA with Military roots and you now get a group that trains to fight without any regard to the opponent and will likely never see that opponent again one way or the other. Underestimate one of them and they WILL hurt you, bad.

 

[Dark Gift Concepts]

I read your thread opener and agree with everything you wrote. I think the view from these kids sorry pupil's comes from watching to much UFC and maybe training just a bit in MMA. They fail to realize do to age, misinformation, lack of seeking what actually works, and the mindset that MMA is a total art.

I also think that they walk around with a false sense of confidence because of it, I myself train, think, and conduct myself very differently. But then again I always have my SoulBlade on me and at least my Glock27. I live in a state were you are more than likely to get shot b4 u get into a fight.

So because of this well ive done it before but because of this all ref. to a fight is based on the person doing the assulting dead in the end!

Give it time and it will all die down, and you will have student's walk in and maybe open there mind to something worth looking into. That or when they figure out everyone is doing the same game and you need to adapt. Life's a real eye opener.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Oh well put like that I shall of course grovel and beg pardon for every MMA person in the world then shall I?

You obviously have all us MMA people pegged, based I assume on the UFC and it's fans.

Not at all.

My point was that the people who generally make uninformed comments as the one referrenced by OP are generally not the serious MMA practitioners, but are generally the UFC fan types who don't actually practice MMA. The general public sees/hears UFC promotions and gets it into their head that that is what MMA is, period the end. I used to work with a guy who had the same idea about boxing. A boxer could 'own' anyone who wasn't a boxer in his opinion. Needless to say, he never boxed a day in his life, but he would argue the point ad-nauseum with any who would indulge him. There are plenty of people who will hold simlar opinions regarding MMA, TMA, or whatever.

I don't think that it is possible to peg all MMA practitioners any more than it is possible to peg all TMA practitioners.

Daniel

 

[wrc619]

Not hand to hand combat. Now, not that H2H WOULDN'T save an individual soldier's life here or there if his weapon jammed 3 feet from whatever enemy is the Flavor of the Generation. But it is a SECONDARY battle plan.

I agree. Hand to hand is a last resort. Use your hands to fight your way to knife, knife to gun, gun to bigger gun. H2H is a skill they teach us military guys with the, " If you have to use these tactics, you are already up s&^t creek. This is your paddle."

 

[Tez3]

I was talking to some guys from a tank regiment the other day, they reckon if they are close enough to have to use their personal weapons they are in trouble!
I do wish people would stop using 'UFC' when they mean MMA though. Granted the UFC is one of the biggest promotions going and probably put MMA on the map (though more in America than other places, we were all great fans of Pride and early promotions of our own) but it is just one promotion. There are many others, these have different rules which make for more skilled and exciting fights.
The UFC is a business not a style, they are out to entertain people to make money. Other competitions stay truer to the spirit of MMA, I'd recommend people have a look out for other promotions before judging MMA based on what they see in the UFC.

 

[cfr]

What I find odd about some MMA guys that have never trained in anything ... shall we say..classical.. is that they seem to show a lack of respect for martial arts. They seem to think that "MMA training" is all there is.

Funny thing is that most champions actually have a "classical" background! A few examples:
GSP: Kyokushin Karate
Bas Rutten: Tae Kwon Do, Kyokushin
Randy Couture: Greco-Roman & collegiate wrestling
Chuck Liddell: Kempo Karate
Anderson Silva: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

Are they not aware of this?

Is MMA gotten to the point where its practioners find no value in "classical" training? If so, I think that's a huge mistake on thier part.

Do you find that there generally a disrespect for more classical or traditional based martial arts among MMA practioners in general?

If so, why do you think this is; especially since many of its champions have training in classical or traditional arts?

Comments?

This is what these few recent champions have done, but will it still look that way in 20 years? After all, MMA is still in it's infancy, so of course a lot of it's practicioners have trained in other styles. There are still huge parts of the country where MMA schools simply dont exist.

Yes, there probably is a lack of respect, but I think it works both ways. For every MMA talking poorly of TMA and talking bad about katas, not training alive, etc., there is a TMA guy who has never gone up against an alive opponent talking about he would neck/ eye/ groin strike an MMA guy with no problem.

Someone pointed out that the two schools of thought could probably learn much each other, I'm inclined to agree, though I'd still consider myself quite a newbie.