MMA levels the playing field

[Taiji Rebel]

The fight lasted 7 seconds. It's not about being "out-of-shape" or "super-fit and muscled." It's about my answers to your questions and what I time stamped. Again martial arts that include "unarmed combat" (fighting) in their training, prepares oneself for "unarmed combat" (fighting).

Oh, okay - so this is what you understand "unarmed combat" to mean. You equate it with being in a competitive match, an organized fight. Ah, that makes sense then. Yes, it is all sport specific. If you wish to be good at fighting then it is no good doing kata or forms alone. The Kung-Fu guy against the competition fighter is the same as putting some who does Boxercise classes in with an amateur boxer

 

[Taiji Rebel]

47, and you?
My questions for you are serious.
Yes. And in many other places, because of;
- small issue with anger control
- lot of disrespect for assholes.

Are you saying you are 47yrs of age with anger issues?

 

[marvin8]

Oh, okay - so this is what you understand "unarmed combat" to mean. You equate it with being in a competitive match, an organized fight. Ah, that makes sense then. Yes, it is all sport specific. If you wish to be good at fighting then it is no good doing kata or forms alone. The Kung-Fu guy against the competition fighter is the same as putting some who does Boxercise classes in with an amateur boxer

No, I don't. "Unarmed combat" (fighting) can happen anywhere—street or ring. The "conceptual martial artist" was lucky it happened in a ring with a referee. In the street, he could have lost his life.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

No, I don't. "Unarmed combat" (fighting) can happen anywhere—street or ring. The "conceptual martial artist" was lucky it happened in a ring with a referee. In the street, he could have lost his life.

Fighting can happen anywhere. You are correct about that. It would not be the same as the example you have given in the video though. That is a prearranged fight with a referee. This is an entirely different thing altogether.

Do you honestly think a real life situation in the street is like this?

 

[marvin8]

Fighting can happen anywhere. You are correct about that. It would not be the same as the example you have given in the video though. That is a prearranged fight with a referee. This is an entirely different thing altogether.

No, it wasn't. The "conceptual martial artist" got knocked out for real.

Do you honestly think a real life situation in the street is like this?

Yes. You can actually get knocked out in the street, if you don't "train to fight for real against real live humans with real live resistance."

 

[Cynik75]

Are you saying you are 47yrs of age with anger issues?

Everybody can have problems.
Please do not avoid answering questions.

Fighting can happen anywhere.

So why you are so surprised about small altercation in grocery shop?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

No, it wasn't. The "conceptual martial artist" got knocked out for real.


Yes. You can actually get knocked out in the street, if you don't "train to fight for real against real live humans with real live resistance."

You can also get run over by a truck, or have a piano drop on your head in the street

Do you actually understand what the word prearranged means in this context?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Everybody can have problems.
Please do not avoid answering questions.

50yrs of age and enjoying life

 

[Taiji Rebel]

No, it wasn't. The "conceptual martial artist" got knocked out for real.


Yes. You can actually get knocked out in the street, if you don't "train to fight for real against real live humans with real live resistance."

In your style, how do they prepare you for the reality of a self-defense scenario?

 

[Cynik75]

Taiji Rebel - how old are you?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Taiji Rebel - how old are you?

Look in the previous post above and you will see the answer is already there

Why am I surprised about the altercation in the shop?

It always surprises me when martial artists feel the need to use their fighting abilities in real life. Since a child I was trained with respect in all of the clubs, gyms and dojos I trained in. We were instructed in the use of dangerous techniques and advised only to use them in life-threatening situations.

Fortunately, my instructors were level-headed. Many of them had served in armed conflicts or law enforcement and realized the dangers and ramifications fighting entails. We were trained in many things other than martial techniques and encouraged to read widely, including texts by Sun Tzu, Musashi, Lao Tzu, Zen and the Art of Archery etc, etc.

We gloved up early and trained to fight. One of the guys was ex-parachute regiment and we milled. No defending allowed, just full on milling for a minute - here is an example from the Parachute regiment selection training:

Here's a longer video on Milling:

 

[JowGaWolf]

Have not watched all of the videos. Only the reference to the kung-fu fighters above. I was totally stunned watching those guys being Knocked Out. Those poor naïve martial artists who must have truly 100% believed in the hype of the fighting systems they trained in.

Oh my God!!!

You have got to be 100% deluded to think you can be out-of-shape and untrained against a trained athlete - it does not even matter if that super-fit and muscled athlete knows anything much about fighting either.

Imagine peddling that kind of junk in your martial arts school and sending your students out into everyday life with their magnificent, yet delusional, fighting abilities - you could get people killed teaching them junk like that

I am absolutely stunned to see those martial artists trying to use their Kung-Fu Panda skills against competition fighters of that calibre

Their (kung fu masters getting beaten )training was never done in the context of fighting against people from a different system. Any sparring done was probably System A vs System A sparring. Their assumption was that every one fights like System A. It probably included bad take downs and boxing strikes. A lot of the TMA vs Boxing videos out there features someone from school with horrible boxing skills. In my last school I could say that I trained against Boxing because one of the instructors was an amateur boxer.

Oter studendents tried to move and punch like boxers but they weren't boxers and I never referred to there sparring as boxing. But I know other schools don't do this. I watched 5 Akido vs Boxing videos 2 days ago where the "boxer" was just an Aikdo practitioner with bad boxing skills.

The assumption was that good boxers had similar skills. This is a common mistake that is easy to avoid. Instead of inviting a boxer to the school to provide solid offensive and defensive resistance, they "pretend to box" and assume they got it covered.

For me personally, I would never say that I spar against MMA, then present a Jow Ga student who has never done MMA. It's just better to train with someone who actually does MMA. For me it means I don't have to guess or make assumptions. If I want to know how an MMA fighter will respond to a low. I simply get in a low stance a take note of his response. This speeds up my learning process and makes me aware of any misconceptions and weakness that I have.

 

[marvin8]

A previous comment I made on that 7 second fight:

It appears because they lack the understanding and skill to control/setup (double weight) their opponent before making contact. At 2:50 of "Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting," this guy appears to misunderstand by stating, "In modern boxing, the opponent fights back at anytime." Also this tai chi guy at 1:02 says, "Two people touch hands then, change and push to take opponent's balance."

Rather, MMA uses "CMA" concepts and strategies similar to Zhang Yun (tai chi) and Guo Shilei (bagua).

MMAist 1. Circles opponent (na) to lead him to step (I call pull/push footwork). 2. feint jab to lure (yin) forward energy 3. listen (ting) for opponent to double weight 4. change before opponent's front foot lands (hua) 5. issue (fa):

Same sequence in cooperative drills/demos starting from distance:

Zhang Weili, among other top fighters, currently trains at Bang Tao gym. Owner covers entering strategy from "MMA distance" to finish (e.g., takedown. push, etc.).

“Start at MMA distance where the opponent has to bridge…. In this modern day and age if I just go to shoot a double leg, he’s going to see it coming from a mile away…. Controlling the distance knuckle to knuckle is very, very important. Because, he can just counter me. So, I need to feint or fake (yin) to make my opponent put his hands up….The opponent may just step back. So, I need to shuffle step to bridge the distance....”

Starting at :50, ...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Their (kung fu masters getting beaten )training was never done in the context of fighting against people from a different system. Any sparring done was probably System A vs System A sparring. Their assumption was that every one fights like System A. It probably included bad take downs and boxing strikes. A lot of the TMA vs Boxing videos out there features someone from school with horrible boxing skills. In my last school I could say that I trained against Boxing because one of the instructors was an amateur boxer.

Oter studendents tried to move and punch like boxers but they weren't boxers and I never referred to there sparring as boxing. But I know other schools don't do this. I watched 5 Akido vs Boxing videos 2 days ago where the "boxer" was just an Aikdo practitioner with bad boxing skills.

The assumption was that good boxers had similar skills. This is a common mistake that is easy to avoid. Instead of inviting a boxer to the school to provide solid offensive and defensive resistance, they "pretend to box" and assume they got it covered.

For me personally, I would never say that I spar against MMA, then present a Jow Ga student who has never done MMA. It's just better to train with someone who actually does MMA. For me it means I don't have to guess or make assumptions. If I want to know how an MMA fighter will respond to a low. I simply get in a low stance a take note of his response. This speeds up my learning process and makes me aware of any misconceptions and weakness that I have.

I'll add to this that it's a mistake to overgeneralize from "I've sparred a boxer" or "I've sparred an MMA fighter" to "I know what it's like sparring against boxers/MMA fighters."

First, there can be huge differences between the personal fighting styles of two boxers or two MMA fighters. Like, potentially as big as the difference between a typical Tae Kwon Do practitioner and a Jow Ga Kung Fu practitioner. If you've only sparred with one or two individuals, then you may be shocked when the next boxer or MMA fighter gives you a completely different energy and set of reactions.

Second, there can be huge differences in skill level. Of course, this is true of any art, but even more so in the case of combat sports that have a talent pool of tens of millions of practitioners worldwide and a fair number of professional fighters who train full time and have dozens or even hundreds of fights under their belt. The larger the talent pool, the further out the tails of the bell curve go. Things that work against a casual hobbyist may not work against a serious amateur competitor. Things that work against a serious amateur competitor may not work against an amateur regional champion. Things that work against an amateur regional champion may not work against a national amateur champion. Things that work against a national amateur champion may not work against a regional professional champion. Things that work against a regional professional champion may not work against a professional world champion. As a common mantra in BJJ goes, "there's levels to this s***".

 

[JowGaWolf]

A previous comment I made on that 7 second fight:

It appears because they lack the understanding and skill to control/setup (double weight) their opponent before making contact. At 2:50 of "Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting," this guy appears to misunderstand by stating, "In modern boxing, the opponent fights back at anytime." Also this tai chi guy at 1:02 says, "Two people touch hands then, change and push to take opponent's balance."

Rather, MMA uses "CMA" concepts and strategies similar to Zhang Yun (tai chi) and Guo Shilei (bagua).

MMAist 1. Circles opponent (na) to lead him to step (I call pull/push footwork). 2. feint jab to lure (yin) forward energy 3. listen (ting) for opponent to double weight 4. change before opponent's front foot lands (hua) 5. issue (fa):

Same sequence in cooperative drills/demos starting from distance:

Zhang Weili, among other top fighters, currently trains at Bang Tao gym. Owner covers entering strategy from "MMA distance" to finish (e.g., takedown. push, etc.).

“Start at MMA distance where the opponent has to bridge…. In this modern day and age if I just go to shoot a double leg, he’s going to see it coming from a mile away…. Controlling the distance knuckle to knuckle is very, very important. Because, he can just counter me. So, I need to feint or fake (yin) to make my opponent put his hands up….The opponent may just step back. So, I need to shuffle step to bridge the distance....”

Starting at :50, ...

How many fights keep fighting data for a gym updated vs the number of fights that keeps TMA schools fight data updated.

A school can be Traditional but the fight data that informs the traditional techniques have to be updated. Those kung fu masters had fight data that was probably based on beginner student fight data who where using the same data.

I'll add to this that it's a mistake to overgeneralize from "I've sparred a boxer" or "I've sparred an MMA fighter" to "I know what it's like sparring against boxers/MMA fighters."

First, there can be huge differences between the personal fighting styles of two boxers or two MMA fighters. Like, potentially as big as the difference between a typical Tae Kwon Do practitioner and a Jow Ga Kung Fu practitioner. If you've only sparred with one or two individuals, then you may be shocked when the next boxer or MMA fighter gives you a completely different energy and set of reactions.

Second, there can be huge differences in skill level. Of course, this is true of any art, but even more so in the case of combat sports that have a talent pool of tens of millions of practitioners worldwide and a fair number of professional fighters who train full time and have dozens or even hundreds of fights under their belt. The larger the talent pool, the further out the tails of the bell curve go. Things that work against a casual hobbyist may not work against a serious amateur competitor. Things that work against a serious amateur competitor may not work against an amateur regional champion. Things that work against an amateur regional champion may not work against a national amateur champion. Things that work against a national amateur champion may not work against a regional professional champion. Things that work against a regional professional champion may not work against a professional world champion. As a common mantra in BJJ goes, "there's levels to this s***".

I agree with that. it's always good to have multiple people from a system so that the basic approach that the system takes can be identified. For example. TKD likes to kick and their approach is fairly universal in terms of kicking. BJJ likes to take things to the ground and that's pretty universal to. Two or three partners from each system should give a reliable base to work from. After that it's just a matter of individual skills and how they choose to set stuff up.

The important thing is that the person isn't guessing about what is most likely to come. In some cases this can be controlled and encourage. MMA is a little more challenging because it's not as narrow. An MMA person can say that they like to kick but that doesn't tell me what types of kicks. It could be one style of kicking or a combination of styles.

The MMA guy that train with trained TKD and Muay Thai, so I'm constantly trying to figure what type of kick I'm going to get hit with. If it was just. TKD then I could generalize more but with MMA it's a big mixture.

A lot of things that don't work us more because of the skill level and not the technique. For example, sprawling is a good defensive move. Just because my sprawl doesn't work against a Pro doesn't mean that the technique is invalid. It just means that my sprawling skills aren't at a professional level.

So a person of a lower skill level can be 100% correct about a technique or an approach even though they can't pull it off against a professional.

This is why I always say that it's good to spar System A vs System B. That way the student will know how to apply the sprawl against System A and stem B. Jow Ga punches have different approaches for the same punch based on the system it's against.

 

[drop bear]

The video will not play.

Your statement suggests plenty of fights can be won by ground fighting - this is 100% true because somebody will always win, but it might not be you

Your statement though, is not evidence to show 90% of fights go to the ground.

You may decide to take fights to the ground because of your training, but this is your choice. And it also one which I wholeheartedly discourage in any real life encounter. The last place you ever want to be is on the ground!

It is fine when you are play-fighting in a contest, but extremely dangerous outside the safety of the ring or gym.

It was just a video of some kid choking a random guy unconscious on the street with nobody jumping in to save anyone.

I didn't make the statement that 90% of fights go to the ground. Just that Rory Miller isn't correct that ground fights are lost because people jump in and stop them. Because there are definitely cases where people don't jump in and stop them. And there are also cases where non ground fights are lost because someone is outnumbered even though they stayed standing.

I take fights to the ground because I have positional advantage if I am on top of them. There is almost nobody who can out strike me from there.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A lot of things that don't work us more because of the skill level and not the technique. For example, sprawling is a good defensive move. Just because my sprawl doesn't work against a Pro doesn't mean that the technique is invalid. It just means that my sprawling skills aren't at a professional level.

Absolutely correct. But it's still really valuable working with the professional. (Not necessarily even a professional, just somebody whose skills and/or attributes are sufficiently advanced to beat your technique.) The reason is that until we find someone who can test our skills to the failure point, it's hard to identify all our technical flaws and bad habits and limitations. When I do takedown sparring with someone who wrestled for a few years in high school, I feel pretty good about my takedowns and takedown defenses. When I do takedown sparring with a good collegiate wrestler, I discover all sorts of subtle mistakes that I've been getting away with against lower-level grapplers. Then I spar with a professional MMA fighter whose grappling is technically inferior to mine but who is 5 times stronger, and get a solid reality check about how much of a physical attribute advantage I can and cannot overcome with my current level of technical skill.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Absolutely correct. But it's still really valuable working with the professional. (Not necessarily even a professional, just somebody whose skills and/or attributes are sufficiently advanced to beat your technique.) The reason is that until we find someone who can test our skills to the failure point, it's hard to identify all our technical flaws and bad habits and limitations. When I do takedown sparring with someone who wrestled for a few years in high school, I feel pretty good about my takedowns and takedown defenses. When I do takedown sparring with a good collegiate wrestler, I discover all sorts of subtle mistakes that I've been getting away with against lower-level grapplers. Then I spar with a professional MMA fighter whose grappling is technically inferior to mine but who is 5 times stronger, and get a solid reality check about how much of a physical attribute advantage I can and cannot overcome with my current level of technical skill.

Any training where you can learn is valuable, but if you are just getting smashed and dominated then it's pointless. Rokas learned that the hard way.

Then I spar with a professional MMA fighter whose grappling is technically inferior to mine but who is 5 times stronger, and get a solid reality check about how much of a physical attribute advantage I can and cannot overcome with my current level of technical skill.

I would hope that some who has a good sense of their limitations would know this before the match started. There are visual clues that determine that. The last time I was wrong about something like that was when I was 10. For me I'm more likely to think someone is stronger that what they are. By default I think my strength is weaker than what it really is and I think that's because what happened in the past. I'm always surprised how strong I am versus always being surprised that I'm weaker than I thought.

Definitely a mental issue for me because I'm like that with other things as well.

But back on point. I would think you have a good eye for experience levels and strength levels.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. Standing, ground, street fights, multiple attackers.

Ok. Before we start we have to understand the concept of percentages, which are a made up set of numbers to demonstrate your chance of winning vs their chance of winning based on your position.

So a 50/50 is a flip of a coin whether you win or they do. 60/40 is an advantage a 90/10 is a massive advantage.

Two people standing in the pocket trading blows is a 50/50. At any point in this dynamic either guy can take a shot that renders them incapable of defending themselves. This is not reliant on how much either guy was dominating that position a second ago. And it makes it very hard to see that blow coming.

If one person is in Mount and raining elbows on a guy on his back. This is called a 90/10. It is almost impossible to get out punched from this position. You can deal the most damage and finish the fight fastest from here.

If we add an extra guy to either of those positions we get a 60/40. So the guy sitting in Mount now has to handle a third party. The guy in the pocket has to handle a sucker punch.

So there is a natural disadvantage.

Here we go in to risk vs reward. In mount the guy has to stand up and be aware of the second guy. But he might have damaged the first guy enough to take away that standing 60/40.

If he was standing he has more mobility to deal with the second guy. But has taken more risk with the first guy and may not have done as much damage and is now facing that 60/40.

In both situations there is a risk that someone will sneak up on them and punch them completely uncontested and win that fight.

So people who just say. Blah blah the ground are not telling you the full story.

 

[drop bear]

Absolutely correct. But it's still really valuable working with the professional. (Not necessarily even a professional, just somebody whose skills and/or attributes are sufficiently advanced to beat your technique.) The reason is that until we find someone who can test our skills to the failure point, it's hard to identify all our technical flaws and bad habits and limitations. When I do takedown sparring with someone who wrestled for a few years in high school, I feel pretty good about my takedowns and takedown defenses. When I do takedown sparring with a good collegiate wrestler, I discover all sorts of subtle mistakes that I've been getting away with against lower-level grapplers. Then I spar with a professional MMA fighter whose grappling is technically inferior to mine but who is 5 times stronger, and get a solid reality check about how much of a physical attribute advantage I can and cannot overcome with my current level of technical skill.

Also punching is grappling. So if your guard is being passed because you just ate a couple of elbows. Then your guard got passed.