MMA levels the playing field

[Steve]

The interesting thing is that boxing still has the best fighters, by some definition. Conor McGregor made substantially more than 20x his usual take in MMA by fighting (and losing) to Mayweather by doing a boxing match, and it looks like the average title match for a boxer pays >10x what an average MMA title match pays. Obviously, if those MMA guys could fight at that level they'd be boxing, but since they can't fight that well they have to find a less profitable venue for their skills.

I think you'd need to see Floyd Mayweather in an MMA fight to gauge that for sure. Would be fun to watch.

But regarding the money, MMA as a sport definitely needs to figure out how to fairly support and compensate their athletes. The way that athletes are chewed up in the sport of MMA is pretty terrible. There was a promotion a few years back, the International Fight League... didn't survive more than a few years, but it was a novel idea. They were fighter-centered. If I remember correctly, there was profit sharing with the fighters, everyone got a base salary, insurance, and the nine-yards. They were employed by the promotion, not independent contractors, which afforded the fighters a lot of benefits and security that UFC fighters don't have.

Anyway, the finances of MMA are a different topic entirely, but I'd say don't correlate directly to the relative skill of the athletes.

 

[MetalBoar]

I think you'd need to see Floyd Mayweather in an MMA fight to gauge that for sure. Would be fun to watch.

But regarding the money, MMA as a sport definitely needs to figure out how to fairly support and compensate their athletes. The way that athletes are chewed up in the sport of MMA is pretty terrible. There was a promotion a few years back, the International Fight League... didn't survive more than a few years, but it was a novel idea. They were fighter-centered. If I remember correctly, there was profit sharing with the fighters, everyone got a base salary, insurance, and the nine-yards. They were employed by the promotion, not independent contractors, which afforded the fighters a lot of benefits and security that UFC fighters don't have.

Hey there Steve! Thanks for the kind and thoughtful reply to my to my sort of snarky, slightly intellectually dishonest post!

I also think it would be interesting to see Mayweather fight in the MMA, and I suspect if he didn't do some real work to prepare for it he'd be in trouble against any of the top fighters. I think that boxing is a really effective striking art, but if you don't have exposure to kicks and take downs you've got a serious disadvantage to overcome. While I feel like I often tend to appear to side with the TMA crowd in these discussions, my actual expectation is that (for now) an average MMA gym can produce skilled fighters and is (significantly?) more likely to do so than an average TMA school. (I have more to say on that topic but this is already a longer post than most people want to read)

Anyway, the finances of MMA are a different topic entirely, but I'd say don't correlate directly to the relative skill of the athletes.

You pointed out the intellectually dishonest part of my post, in that I agree with you that money is not an inherent measure of efficacy or value. I think it's only slightly dishonest, because a) I do think that while compensation is not a perfect measure of efficacy, I also think that most top UFC fighters would be very happy to make what top boxers do and that they don't because they are unable to develop their boxing skills to that level and b) a lot of the discussion I see in these threads is whether the ruleset matters and the MMA crowd downplays its relevance. If ruleset isn't relevant, why aren't they boxing for more money? I admit that I've overly simplified that part of the discussion, but I don't think the point is completely invalid.

 

[drop bear]

Hey there Steve! Thanks for the kind and thoughtful reply to my to my sort of snarky, slightly intellectually dishonest post!

I also think it would be interesting to see Mayweather fight in the MMA, and I suspect if he didn't do some real work to prepare for it he'd be in trouble against any of the top fighters. I think that boxing is a really effective striking art, but if you don't have exposure to kicks and take downs you've got a serious disadvantage to overcome. While I feel like I often tend to appear to side with the TMA crowd in these discussions, my actual expectation is that (for now) an average MMA gym can produce skilled fighters and is (significantly?) more likely to do so than an average TMA school. (I have more to say on that topic but this is already a longer post than most people want to read)



You pointed out the intellectually dishonest part of my post, in that I agree with you that money is not an inherent measure of efficacy or value. I think it's only slightly dishonest, because a) I do think that while compensation is not a perfect measure of efficacy, I also think that most top UFC fighters would be very happy to make what top boxers do and that they don't because they are unable to develop their boxing skills to that level and b) a lot of the discussion I see in these threads is whether the ruleset matters and the MMA crowd downplays its relevance. If ruleset isn't relevant, why aren't they boxing for more money? I admit that I've overly simplified that part of the discussion, but I don't think the point is completely invalid.

I get you. So the best strikers will strike. The best grapplers will grapple. And MMA sort of gets what is left over.

 

[MetalBoar]

I get you. So the best strikers will strike. The best grapplers will grapple. And MMA sort of gets what is left over.

I assume the grapplers, that don't do MMA, grapple strictly because they like it, seeing as there doesn't seem to be any money to speak of in BJJ (or other grappling) competition.

 

[JowGaWolf]

beat a dead dusty equine.

Yes this. That's one skill that truly exists here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So if you want to be ninja Mcgee. And do your own thing in MMA you can. If you want to be Rokus and try to wrist lock a pro fighter you can.

But there is no rule that says he has to put up with it and can beat your head like a drum using higher percentage techniques.

Then it is your choice to either use the better system to stay competitive or get better at your system to develop depth.

I bet his karate will get better because of that fight. Now his karate will be more informed. Which to me is awesome. It's valuable experience win or lose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It was my understanding this forum is a place to discuss ideas related to Martial Arts - is not that correct?

But your MA definition may be different from my MA definition.

My definition of MA is:

- fist meet face.



- head meet ground.

 

[drop bear]

I assume the grapplers, that don't do MMA, grapple strictly because they like it, seeing as there doesn't seem to be any money to speak of in BJJ (or other grappling) competition.

Gordon Ryan has done alright out of it.

 

[MetalBoar]

Gordon Ryan has done alright out of it.

Sure, but that's from selling stuff, not from stupendous BJJ tournament purses. If you're that good at sales you could make a fortune selling cars, or crypto, or time shares, he just happened to get rich selling BJJ instructionals.

 

[MetalBoar]

I assume the grapplers, that don't do MMA, grapple strictly because they like it, seeing as there doesn't seem to be any money to speak of in BJJ (or other grappling) competition.

I wanted to clarify this post a little. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing BJJ, or any MA, simply because you like it. I assume most everyone on this forum enjoys their MA or they wouldn't be doing it. I train in MA almost entirely because I enjoy it and find it rewarding; I've definitely never made any money from it. Sure, it also helps me to stay fit and has some other benefits, but I could get all of that in other ways if I didn't like MA.

I hope that the pro fighters, of whatever type, are enjoying their MA at least a little, but I expect that it's largely a pay day for many of them. I know that a number of friends who ended up going to college on athletic scholarships ended up feeling like the sport they used to love had become mostly just a job. I've only known a couple of pro fighters and the more financially successful of them retired the moment he could and never did another MA related thing in his life, where the other is still training hard at new martial arts and loving it in his 50's, including earning a BB in BJJ just a few years ago. So, I guess that's 50/50 from my experience but it's a pretty small sample to go from.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I wanted to clarify this post a little. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing BJJ, or any MA, simply because you like it. I assume most everyone on this forum enjoys their MA or they wouldn't be doing it. I train in MA almost entirely because I enjoy it and find it rewarding; I've definitely never made any money from it. Sure, it also helps me to stay fit and has some other benefits, but I could get all of that in other ways if I didn't like MA.

I hope that the pro fighters, of whatever type, are enjoying their MA at least a little, but I expect that it's largely a pay day for many of them. I know that a number of friends who ended up going to college on athletic scholarships ended up feeling like the sport they used to love had become mostly just a job. I've only known a couple of pro fighters and the more financially successful of them retired the moment he could and never did another MA related thing in his life, where the other is still training hard at new martial arts and loving it in his 50's, including earning a BB in BJJ just a few years ago. So, I guess that's 50/50 from my experience but it's a pretty small sample to go from.

I do MA because it gives me magical powers. You should see me nap, nobody can nap faster than me. Ooh and horse beating, I can do that with the best of em. I hear the only ones better at beating horses are the MMA guys…but that’s because they don’t do patty cakes, they actually pressure test the beating technique again and again and again…

 

[marvin8]

Not sure I catch your drift here

Just saying if your sport is MMA then it will end up with most folk using the same basic techniques and skills.

Can you list "the same basic techniques and skills" that you speak of?

In MMA, martial artists with different backgrounds (e.g., TMA) use a variety of skills in kicking, striking, wrestling and joint locking.

As for preparation for unarmed combat - does any martial art really prepare you for such an event?

Yes, those martial arts that include "unarmed combat"/fighting in their training.

At :41, "I don't mean to disparage people who practice kung fu. Rather to draw attention to what happens when we have a conceptual martial artist, who doesn't actually train to fight for real, against real live humans with real live resistance and a combat sports athlete who does exactly that. In a contest of reality, the reality based martial artist is going to win."

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Hey Marvin8

Are you somebody who practices MMA?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Yes, those martial arts that include "unarmed combat"/fighting in their training

What kind of situations does this unarmed combat/fighting training prepare people for?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Only if you are willing to agree to help beat a dead dusty equine.

Yes this. That's one skill that truly exists here.

You laugh now, but when the zombie horse apocalypse begins, the members of this forum may be all who stand between humanity and the undead herds.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I hope that the pro fighters, of whatever type, are enjoying their MA at least a little, but I expect that it's largely a pay day for many of them.

For the very top ones, perhaps. But to get to that point you have to rise first through the ranks of countless amateur fighters who aren't getting paid anything and then through the slightly less numerous ranks of professional fighters who are barely getting paid enough to cover expenses. Even at the very highest levels of competition, only a very small percentage of fighters make enough to make it all worthwhile from a financial standpoint. Given the amount of effort required to rise through the ranks like that, I'd say that just about anybody who reaches that level has a fair amount of passion for their chosen combat sport. Certainly all the pro fighters that I personally know and have trained with are motivated by a desire to excel at what they do and not by the (generally meager) payday.

(I'm speaking from a USA-ian perspective here. I understand that in Thailand many Muay Thai practitioners start fighting professionally in their early teens as a way to support their family. The economic circumstances are a bit different.)

 

[MetalBoar]

(I'm speaking from a USA-ian perspective here. I understand that in Thailand many Muay Thai practitioners start fighting professionally in their early teens as a way to support their family. The economic circumstances are a bit different.)

Interestingly enough, both the pro fighters I know did it as a way to escape poverty right here in the US. The one who was more successful in his fighting career started boxing young because he lived in a very poor, crime ridden area and wanted to know how to fight out of necessity and then when he found he was really good at it, it was the best (and maybe only) opportunity he had to make money. He quit the moment it made financial sense to do so and never looked back.

The other gentleman's story is more complex, but not entirely dissimilar, he just really enjoys MA of all sorts.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Interestingly enough, both the pro fighters I know did it as a way to escape poverty right here in the US. The one who was more successful in his fighting career started boxing young because he lived in a very poor, crime ridden area and wanted to know how to fight out of necessity and then when he found he was really good at it, it was the best (and maybe only) opportunity he had to make money. He quit the moment it made financial sense to do so and never looked back.

The other gentleman's story is more complex, but not entirely dissimilar, he just really enjoys MA of all sorts.

Yeah, there's probably a reason that a disproportionate number of professional fighters come from impoverished neighborhoods/regions/countries. If there are no other options, then for some people it can be a way out of poverty.

I know a fair number of current and retired pro fighters, but I don't know whether any of them fall into that category. Possibly that has to do with where I live and the gyms that I've trained at.

 

[marvin8]

Not sure I catch your drift here

Just saying if your sport is MMA then it will end up with most folk using the same basic techniques and skills.

As for preparation for unarmed combat - does any martial art really prepare you for such an event?

Can you list "the same basic techniques and skills" that you speak of?

In MMA, martial artists with different backgrounds (e.g., TMA) use a variety of skills in kicking, striking, wrestling and joint locking.


Yes, those martial arts that include "unarmed combat"/fighting in their training.

At :41, "I don't mean to disparage people who practice kung fu. Rather to draw attention to what happens when we have a conceptual martial artist, who doesn't actually train to fight for real, against real live humans with real live resistance and a combat sports athlete who does exactly that. In a contest of reality, the reality based martial artist is going to win."

What kind of situations does this unarmed combat/fighting training prepare people for?

I got your PM, "unarmed combat" (fighting) type situations. The subsequent two videos, I posted, explain that as well.

Now can you answer the question that I had asked first, "Can you list 'the same basic techniques and skills' that you speak of?"

 

[Taiji Rebel]

John Kavanagh is a professional MMA coach and trainer. His book Win, or Learn is an informative read - if you like reading.

Now back when UFC was just a little baby and still learning to walk, it was spoken about a lot in the martial arts media. Martial artists from all different style were finally going to come together and fight in a no-holds barred contest to see which style was the best

People from various styles came to test themselves and their style (techniques) Mr. Gracie won, and suddenly every article was based around BJJ and ground-fighting - it was also around this time when the myth that 90% of street fights go to the ground

Rory Miller, in a recent book, had the following to say about the reality of ground fighting:

In real life, the winner in a ground fight is not the strongest, the meanest, or the most skillful. The winner will be decided by whose friends get there first.

Anyway, now let us get back to the topic of sports fighting

BJJ became the best thing since, the last best thing (i.e the latest fad) and everybody started working on their ground game

Well, not everybody. Some people still thought their art/style/techniques/method was the best. And they were willing to prove it. Lots of those guys were tackled to the ground and then more people started to seek out the masters of the ground game.

Many years later, Conor McGregor thought he could rely on his striking techniques, but he got taken to the ground and defeated on a number of occasions. Still he was a stubborn young boy and refused to learn. His coach though, wrote a book called Win, or Learn and eventually Conor had to concede - it was time to learn the ground game:

Nowadays, if somebody comes to SBG from a striking background and says they don't like grappling, I have to pull them to one side and tell them that's not going to work. It's okay if grappling isn't your favourite part of mixed martial arts, but you can't simply ignore it. Otherwise the sport of MMA just isn't for you. You can't pick and choose the parts of the game that want to focus on if you have aspirations to go far. I won't allow someone to say: 'I hate grappling'. I make them amend that to: 'Although grappling is not my favourite aspect of MMA right now, I'm excited about learning and improving it.' I believe we become what we continuously say we are, so the words we use are important - John Kavanagh