Mixed Martial Arts and knife work?

[Taiji Rebel]

I

Is there any street rule against hiting somebody in the face (in selfdefence situation) with hook, jab, uppercut etc.? Like a boxer?
Is there any street rule against kicking somebody (in selfdefence situation) with highkick, lowkick, middlekick, tornado kick, qm kick etc.? Like sport kickboxer boxer, sport thai boxer, sport katarekas etc?
Is there any street rule against taking somebodys down (in selfdefence situation) with shoots, throws, slams? Like wrestlers, judokas, jujiteiros, sambists, etc?
Is there any street rule against choking somebodys out (in selfdefence situation)? Like judokas, jujiteiros, sambists?
Or maybe there is a rule against using elbows and knees?
Or being fit, strong and athletic? Or have a good timig?

There is no referee "in da streetz"? Good, I can maul the robber as long as I want and nobody will stop me

There are no referees and no rules. You are 100% free to improvise with the techniques in any way you please. Yet, it is still baffling to see people are confusing learning a martial art/sport with studying self-defense and personal protection systems. Never mind - take a look at this article instead:

Post | Black Belt Magazine

blackbeltmag.com

 

[Flying Crane]

I

There are no referees and no rules. You are 100% free to improvise with the techniques in any way you please. Yet, it is still baffling to see people are confusing learning a martial art/sport with studying self-defense and personal protection systems. Never mind - take a look at this article instead:

Post | Black Belt Magazine

blackbeltmag.com

I don’t think anybody is confused about the difference between training a martial sport and training self defense. It does seem to me that you are confused about the overlap between the two. Martial sports have a whole lot that is useful and could be applied successfully in self defense. Not everything, of course, but plenty. I don’t understand why you don’t seem able, or are unwilling, to see that. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I don’t think anybody is confused about the difference between training a martial sport and training self defense. It does seem to me that you are confused about the overlap between the two. Martial sports have a whole lot that is useful and could be applied successfully in self defense. Not everything, of course, but plenty. I don’t understand why you don’t seem able, or are unwilling, to see that. The two are not mutually exclusive

There is overlap, this has never been denied. Yet, it is 100% possible to understand and be prepared for self-defense situations without ever learning or practising a martial art. There are two different mindsets in play that is all. Returning to original question for a moment. Alongside boxing I also studied knife defenses. In Tomiki Aikido we used to use tanto in randori. One of our old instructors lost an eye using a wooden tanto. Martial arts clubs are safer environments in which to experiment but they will never truly reflect the reality and adrenal responses you will face on the street.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is overlap, this has never been denied.

Ok, the way you post here suggests otherwise. Thank you for the clarification.

Yet, it is 100% possible to understand and be prepared for self-defense situations without ever learning or practising a martial art.

No argument from me on that point. One does not need to train a sophisticated martial method, or any martial method, to be able to defend oneself or to be a good fighter.

There are two different mindsets in play that is all. Returning to original question for a moment. Alongside boxing I also studied knife defenses. In Tomiki Aikido we used to use tanto in randori. One of our old instructors lost an eye using a wooden tanto.

Ok…

Martial arts clubs are safer environments in which to experiment but they will never truly reflect the reality and adrenal responses you will face on the street.

True, but nothing will actually reflect that reality, except that actual reality. Training by its very nature and definition is a step or two back from that reality because one must train safely. Training rough and “realistic” (however that may be defined) can be done while still training safely. None of that is the same thing as being in a real fight, knives or no knives.

But I still hold that martial sports can certainly give someone the skills to successfully defend themselves, even if that is not really the goal of the training. The skills can still apply.

 

[Rich Parsons]

There is a program called adopt a cop. That helps train police on what is basically civilian BJJ. They basically let cops join the local BJJ school.

Research shows 48% less injuries to police officers training in Jiu-Jitsu within an "Adopt a Cop" program - BJJ World

Police departments across the USA implementing Jiu-Jitsu training through the “Adopt a Cop” program With the light of attention now focused on police departments following public outcry over police violence, more and more agencies are recognizing that their cops require more training in how to...

bjj-world.com

And it is massively successful from a saftey stand point.

Which for someone like myself who has done industry specific defence training is not at all suprising. (But kind of nice to see this stuff confirmed.)

And a reflection on the short comings of the methodology of those sorts of specific programs.

And it boils down to the people training do not develop the depth of knowledge about the subject without the refereed contested nature of combat sports.

I have had this program / policy for a long while (Decades) If they (the police) show up unless they are there for the Art, and they have called and talked about it, they usually want an answer to a question.
I use that time they are there to answer and help if I can.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Carrying a knife comes with a certain amount of responsibility. If you have to defend yourself do you automatically draw the knife and escalate?
Hopefully not. But what if you don’t? What if things go bad, you’re on the ground and more opponents jump in? Or what if your first opponent escalates in some way?

To be honest, if I ever was able to clear a knife or other weapon then engagement never happened.
.
Otherwise I was too busy addressing the immediate threat / weapon issue.
* Note * One opinion or personal experience with multiple data points so mileage will vary.

If you haven’t practiced accessing your knife in a ground scramble, do you really want a real-deal self defense scenario to be the first time you do?
The amount of space you have is different. Where your elbows go will be different. Your angles of opportunity will be different. How you use your vision will be different. Your draw will be different, most times much different.

Yes, I have used trainer folders and worked out and trained in street cloths for such training / action / testing.
Also Note: If one is doing this off to the side at an event, let the host and other instructor(s) know as when the blade (Fake) snaps into place everyone stops who hears it and looks for it. ( Also my personal experience - Mileage will vary )

IF a person trains in knife work, ground fighting with an edged weapon should be included as part of it.

I agree.

 

[Holmejr]

Carrying a knife comes with a certain amount of responsibility. If you have to defend yourself do you automatically draw the knife and escalate?
Hopefully not. But what if you don’t? What if things go bad, you’re on the ground and more opponents jump in? Or what if your first opponent escalates in some way?

If you haven’t practiced accessing your knife in a ground scramble, do you really want a real-deal self defense scenario to be the first time you do?
The amount of space you have is different. Where your elbows go will be different. Your angles of opportunity will be different. How you use your vision will be different. Your draw will be different, most times much different.

IF a person trains in knife work, ground fighting with an edged weapon should be included as part of it.

I train in FMA and typically do not carry a knife. By chance, has anyone here ever tried defending themselves from a knife while holding a knife?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

True, but nothing will actually reflect that reality, except that actual reality. Training by its very nature and definition is a step or two back from that reality because one must train safely. Training rough and “realistic” (however that may be defined) can be done while still training safely. None of that is the same thing as being in a real fight, knives or no knives.

There have been adrenal-based courses offered in the past - they were very popular in the early 1990s. RMCAT was one in the US. Geoff Thompson ran courses in the UK. They were taught and staffed by people with real-life experiences of violence in daily life. RMCAT dealt with weapon-based scenarios, including the use of firearms. Not sure if these kinds of courses are still on offer, but they were around in the 1990s - and some were around even earlier.

These kinds of courses help acclimatize people to the pressures of adrenalin by using various drills and stress-based scenarios.

 

[Flying Crane]

There have been adrenal-based courses offered in the past - they were very popular in the early 1990s. RMCAT was one in the US. Geoff Thompson ran courses in the UK. They were taught and staffed by people with real-life experiences of violence in daily life. RMCAT dealt with weapon-based scenarios, including the use of firearms. Not sure if these kinds of courses are still on offer, but they were around in the 1990s - and some were around even earlier.

These kinds of courses help acclimatize people to the pressures of adrenalin by using various drills and stress-based scenarios.

I am not familiar with these but ok, I’ll take your word for it. And yet these also are not a real fight; they are training and by their very nature are a step or two removed from real violence.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I train in FMA and typically do not carry a knife. By chance, has anyone here ever tried defending themselves from a knife while holding a knife?

No, because if I was able top deploy they stopped engagement .

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I am not familiar with these but ok, I’ll take your word for it. And yet these also are not a real fight; they are training and by their very nature are a step or two removed from real violence.

Yes, this correct. The military use many drills which place their recruits in highly stressful conditions. The aim is to get as close to replicating combat as humanly possible without killing one another. Police-units throughout the world use similar methodology to best train their recruits and officers to deal with operational situations. Back in the late 80s and early 90s when reality-based training started to become popular, some martial arts instructors and students were quick to understand there is more to self-defense than learning a few strikes and counters in the safety of a dojo. If your aim is to really learn about self-protection then it is imperative to seek out instructors who have experienced and survived countless violent situations. Unfortunately, the majority of martial artists instructors and students I've encountered over the years have no such experiences.

 

[drop bear]

I am not familiar with these but ok, I’ll take your word for it. And yet these also are not a real fight; they are training and by their very nature are a step or two removed from real violence.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Geoff's work came out a long time ago now. His thoughts were not appreciated by all those who practice martial arts. The reality of violence is not at all like the media portrays, people can be maimed/disabled or end up in the morgue - it is traumatic and damages anyone who is involved. The true practice of self-defense is making sure you never get into these kind of situations in the first place.

 

[Buka]

I train in FMA and typically do not carry a knife. By chance, has anyone here ever tried defending themselves from a knife while holding a knife?

Do you mean in training? Or in real world defense?