Mindless rambling about where FMA's are going

[Rocky]

Time Wrote:

4. You don’t know what you’re talking about. There is no Kenpo or Bando in my curriculum. Of course you don’t have the ability to make an educated comment on this point seeing that you haven’t been my student since about 1988.

Why not Tim?? Screw these Bozzo's you are doing a dis-service to Modern Arnis, Remy created the art with the mentality that it will always adapt and grow. Contrary to what the ill-informed beleave.

6. My Modern Arnis is very complete, more so than most. If I want to know more about the roots on the system I need to do research on what Modern Arnis is composed of. After starting my training in Balintawak (which Remy himself opened the door for me with Manong Buot) I see why Remy did certain things. One needs to know about the past to plan for the future. This is the heart of what drives me and my organization

Your Modern Arnis being more complete than most will always make you a target, welcome to my world!! I think now too you may understand why I always wanted you to train in Balintawak and Crossada DeMano, you are one of the very few who will and can see the connections. Again this will make you a target. We don't always see eye to eye but we see a lot more than others.

9. Remy did cross train, but when I got this material, it had already been incorporated by him into the system. As far as I am concerned, it is modern arnis.

Here!! Here!!


Bloodworth Wrote:

Many of the clubs and organizations in the PI were confrontational and rivals. That is how Anciong's Balintawak got started, due to a disagreement among the leaders of Doce Pares

Correction here Anciong broke off because he was taught different, and he wanted to move back to Cebu 9 Read my web site if you want to check out some of Balintawaks history) Anciong and the Canette'd were very good friends, In fact I have been invite to train with Cacoy because of my Balintawak Linage. The confrontation was between the modified or grouped versions and some of the un grouped off shoots. But Anciong student as with GM Buots usually welcomed at Doce Pares

As for what Rocky said about Professor abandoning some people, just remember that Professor was the main attraction and unless you were helping him cover some of his obligations he was not about to share the seminar and camp pie while he was still active. That was his business and he was protecting it. If people were looking for part of the action he would not support it, rather he would squelch any interest. He was protecting his turf and he was good at it. The only problem with this was that it left no room for life after Remy.

Sorry I can't agree with you here I think it was something else. Remy helped me get a pretty fair seminar following going as he did with others. I think it was more like he thought that maybe by teaching to many of his people the more traditional approach some would leave Modern Arnis, which I think he was wrong, I practice about 6 different Eskrima methods. But I still do Modern Arnis even though I have my own method "Cuentada De mano"
In fact I have said it before Remys biggest flaw came from being to generous, and giving to much to to many to fast , he wanted everyone happy and God can't even do that!

Rocky

rockypasiwk.com

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Renegade
I would like to respond to Mr. Kashino’s post:
...
4. You don’t know what you’re talking about. There is no Kenpo or Bando in my curriculum. Of course you don’t have the ability to make an educated comment on this point seeing that you haven’t been my student since about 1988.

5. Yes, it is coincidence that the names are similar. Once again there are NO BORROWED Kenpo techniques...

7. No you’re not. You’ve been this way as long as I’ve known you. You always seem to be looking for a fight. Personally I feel that all your posts about me are personal attacks Lamont, I mean Tim.

Tim, Jeff already addressed many of the things that were in my post. However it is nice to see you answer for yourself. Truthfully, I had though about posing those questions to you privately. Perhaps I should have, but would I have received a response? Probably not.

4 & 5: OK, I'll buy off on the coincidential similarity in the terms that you use for your techniques, and I understand your reasons for delving into Balintawak.

Yes, it is true that I trained with you for a very short time in 1988. You and I know why I left, and there is no reason to air that here. Furthermore, I've grown beyond all of that sophomoric crap. It's in the past, and it will stay there.

7: Well Tim, Yes I a am sorry to sound argumentative. Frankly Tim, you haven't seen me with any regularity since 1988. I didn't train with you long enough for you to know me in any greater degree than that of an vague aquantance. If you choose to judge me by my past affiliations, that's your narrow minded perogative and you're welcome to it.

There's no need for you to feel so threatened by me, I'm not calling you a fraud, plagarizer or charlatan. I'm asking you questions out of genuine interest. It's very childish of you to respond like that.

I am not hostile toward you or any of your crew. If I were, I know where to find you and I could come looking for a fight anytime I wanted to. It's that simple. If anybody is hostile, it's you. There's no need to be so damn defensive. I may not be your friend, but I'm not your enemy either. If a "nobody" like me can get under your skin so easily, then you've got some internal issues to deal with. Grow up and act like the leader you claim to be, Tim.

I'm off to Sicily.

Chiao,

Tim Kashino

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rocky
In fact I have said it before Remys biggest flaw came from being to generous, and giving to much to to many to fast , he wanted everyone happy and God can't even do that!

rockypasiwk.com [/B]

Well said, Rock.

Tim Kashino

 

[loki09789]

Rocky,

Thanks for the invite, but right now I am really interested in reconnecting with Bobby Taboada's grouped version of Balitawak. Not a slam against anyone else but just a personal preference. It felt like a good fit and I want to continue with it. Besides that, with the wedding coming, I have to pick my battles... I mean seminar/travel expenditures carefully right now. If 'mom/wifey's not happy...' and all that.

Tom posted something about the thai boxer vs trapping hands and I think it need clarifying. I hope he doesn't mind. I was there with him in Bosnia and trained with the Chief Warrant Officer too. I remember the session he was talking about.

The Chief was a VERY good Thai boxer and the schedule of the night was free sparring hands only. Tom decided to see what would happen if he did nothing but block check counter/trapping hands as a response. Basically, he was experimenting with the strictest pattern application he could make happen. The Chief was outrageously fast, even for a relaxed sparring session like this one and Tom was working really hard to make anything work, but it was entirely intentional.

I taught Tom trapping hands and I know he knows it as a drill, concept movement as well as an application when its time to bang. This was an experimental attempt, just to see what would happen.

It DID work to bridge the gap when there was a clinch. It DID work to create time and distance for him to set something else up and it DID work to disrupt the Chief because he was use to a different movement style. It did not work by itself against the Chief's speed. This session helped both of us to understand how a beginner might see and internalize trapping hands. Therefore we have to reconsider some of the language and pedagogical techniques that we use to teach it to them. It helped us to get back to that beginner's emotional and mental state to be better instructors.

I think the ultimate point of the comment was to say that free sparring and forcing students to apply techniques outside of a set drill or pattern is essential for self defense training.

Rocky's love of the ungrouped Balitawak is testimony to the fightablity of such training. Your always 'on' because it's similar to the randomness of a fight. This works for experienced artists and those who inherently are 'tough' minded. It will not work as the mainstay for a beginners training though if part of an instructor's goal is to help students who live in this relatively cushie world to tap into that tough mindedness because they are blessed with such a high quality of life and generally don't have to tap into that inner strength which is essential to survive a fight/self defense.


Tom can bang with the best of them. I have the pride of a friend and instructor/training partner when I hear how he really smoked the you know what out of the instructors during the baton and defensive tactics portions of the training at the police academy. That willingness to sacrifice comfort and leave the safety zone behind for the sake of knowledge and skill, as well as to serve his community is what contributed to his making the SWAT team as well as leaving a damn respectable reputation as a soldier and MP at our old unit. I never got asked to go commissioned officer by the commander time and time again. Tom, I'm jealous!

Paul R. Martin

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Tim, Jeff already addressed many of the things that were in my post. However it is nice to see you answer for yourself. Truthfully, I had though about posing those questions to you privately. Perhaps I should have, but would I have received a response? Probably not.

4 & 5: OK, I'll buy off on the coincidential similarity in the terms that you use for your techniques, and I understand your reasons for delving into Balintawak.

Yes, it is true that I trained with you for a very short time in 1988. You and I know why I left, and there is no reason to air that here. Furthermore, I've grown beyond all of that sophomoric crap. It's in the past, and it will stay there.

7: Well Tim, Yes I a am sorry to sound argumentative. Frankly Tim, you haven't seen me with any regularity since 1988. I didn't train with you long enough for you to know me in any greater degree than that of an vague aquantance. If you choose to judge me by my past affiliations, that's your narrow minded perogative and you're welcome to it.

There's no need for you to feel so threatened by me, I'm not calling you a fraud, plagarizer or charlatan. I'm asking you questions out of genuine interest. It's very childish of you to respond like that.

I am not hostile toward you or any of your crew. If I were, I know where to find you and I could come looking for a fight anytime I wanted to. It's that simple. If anybody is hostile, it's you. There's no need to be so damn defensive. I may not be your friend, but I'm not your enemy either. If a "nobody" like me can get under your skin so easily, then you've got some internal issues to deal with. Grow up and act like the leader you claim to be, Tim.

I'm off to Sicily.

Chiao,

Tim Kashino

Hmmm....lets see...you load up a bunch of questions that are riddled with criticizms and insults. Then Hartman answers, so you follow up with more insults, coupled with "why are you being so defensive/hostile" remarks. And if he chose to ignore you, you would try to ridicule him for letting others answer for him and for him not responding to you. How ridicules. Your pretending to be logical and objective, however, everyone can see through your baited questions and remarks that you have some obscure agenda with Datu Hartman.

"Truthfully, I had though about posing those questions to you privately. Perhaps I should have, but would I have received a response? Probably not." :vu:

When I read between the lines of your posts, it sounds like: I'm mad at my dad!

It's stupid and nonsensicle, I know. However, that is still what it sounds like.

Whatever. Be safe in Sicily [and I do mean that]. Also, see if your GI insurance will cover the counciling you'll need to overcome your "lost daddy" syndrome (you know, so your posts will sound less like "sophmoric crap").

Yours,

PAUL

:apv:

 

[Rocky]

Paul Wrote:

Thanks for the invite, but right now I am really interested in reconnecting with Bobby Taboada's grouped version of Balitawak. Not a slam against anyone else but just a personal preference. It felt like a good fit and I want to continue with it. Besides that, with the wedding coming, I have to pick my battles... I mean seminar/travel expenditures carefully right now. If 'mom/wifey's not happy...' and all that.

Well the door is always open!

Training with GM Taboada is a great ideal, he is a very nice man, we got off on the wrong foot a few years ago it was a he said they said thing. But all in all I have played with a few of his guys, and thought they were very good, which is a reflection on him. For the record my Cuentada De Mano is very simular to the grouped version " Much easier to teach that way" the reason I never claimed it to be Balintawak, is because it has so many other influence from my father and others. Gm Buot helped me coin the Phrase Cuentada ( Strategy) De mano (the hand) the first word is in GM Buot dialect and the second is GM Presas's.

Rocky's love of the ungrouped Balitawak is testimony to the fightablity of such training. Your always 'on' because it's similar to the randomness of a fight. This works for experienced artists and those who inherently are 'tough' minded. It will not work as the mainstay for a beginners training though if part of an instructor's goal is to help students who live in this relatively cushie world to tap into that tough mindedness because they are blessed with such a high quality of life and generally don't have to tap into that inner strength which is essential to survive a fight/self defense

See my above post you are right in that the un grouped version is much harder to teach.

Thanks

Rocky

 

[Rich Parsons]

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Rich Parsons
-MT Moderator-


:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Tgace

1. And to elaborate on #4...if each club takes their own path in developing their art at what point will it become something other than MA?
2. Was MA-80 developed because you saw that your interpretation of MA was taking on such a different characteristic from MA that you needed to re-classify?
3. Should there be some form of standardization within MA?
4. Is it even possible?

T,

1. Hoo boy, good question. I can't really answer that one honestly. I would think as along as the material went along with RP's material you could still call it Modern Arnis. If you went half and half with something like Kalis Illustrisimo, then you would have to change it then. My opinion.

2. Moreso that it was the way that I present it and the elements I think should be stressed. A very good example is that Kelly Worden sees far more importance in the anyos than I do. He stresses the heck out of them and I don't stress them anywhere near as much and to get Kelly and I to agree on anything in present time would be a modern washday miracle.

3. I think for the most part the only things that could be standardized in Modern Arnis would be the basic structure of the forms. Everything else is pretty wide open for interpretation.

4. For the forms, yes...possibly.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[loki09789]

The basic idea I am getting from the posting on this thread, before the finger pointing contest started deteriorating the quality of discussion, is this.

1. If you are ranked by RP you can legitimately claim to teach MA as well as your students, but RP ranked based on a subjective approach and could act for his personal benefit/preservation because of bad mojo in PI that he didn't want to repeat.

2. RP didn't lay down a curriculum, but he nodded off on some of your curriculums out there and you want to continue to do your own things that RP had already approved.

3. Competition is healthy in MA because it keeps everyone on their best performance and forces them to rise to a challenge. Therefore it's okay to have various curricula, organizations... and stuff.

4. No one is really interested in unifying MA under one single organization, system leader... because it is about variation and adaptability.

Here's my question:

Would it be possible to ever get the powers that be together to draft a single statement about mutual respect and cooperation that each of you would include in your Mission statements, contracts... what ever you call your charter that explains the basis and intent of your group... to demonstrate a recognition of fraternal but independent development in MA.

I remember that there were people up in arms about the USA declaring all National parks and Monuments officially United Nations monuments as well. They wanted to say it was a neglect of our soverenity as a nation, but it was really just a diplomatic gesture that sent the message that we are different but part of a greater whole.

I think this type of thing could be accomplished with that single agreed upon statement.

Paul Martin

 

[Cruentus]

I think this type of thing could be accomplished with that single agreed upon statement.

It's been said/thought of in different ways before.

In my opinion, this would take a miricle.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by loki09789
Here's my question:

1. Would it be possible to ever get the powers that be together to draft a single statement about mutual respect and cooperation that each of you would include in your Mission statements, contracts... what ever you call your charter that explains the basis and intent of your group... to demonstrate a recognition of fraternal but independent development in MA.

2. I remember that there were people up in arms about the USA declaring all National parks and Monuments officially United Nations monuments as well. They wanted to say it was a neglect of our soverenity as a nation, but it was really just a diplomatic gesture that sent the message that we are different but part of a greater whole.

3. I think this type of thing could be accomplished with that single agreed upon statement.

Paul Martin

Paul,
1. All of us? I don't think so but let me publicly state I'd be the first to support it.
2. ...part of the greater whole. Nicely stated. Each Modern Arnis organization leader trained under the same source.
3. If nothing else it might tonne down the public comments a bit.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Rocky]

I know this thread has been quite for a while but I just wanted to add a few more comments about where Modern Arnis is going and to respond to a few of Paul Martins comments.


Paul I think you are right in some of your comments about various things in Modern Arnis, however Modern Arnis is always going to change and be added to and taken away sometimes for the good some times for the bad. But this is just the way all matial arts are, the Founder or Grandmaster may have added and changed things, over ther years and once he is gone others will continue. 500 years ago the oldest of martial arts didn't have hand gun disarms, there was no need for them now almost all arts have some degree of it, some good some bad.

A quick story, when I was 6 I started training in Tang Soo Doo, Moo Duk Kwan. We were notrious for very fast and extreamly strong kicks. We also never had blackbelts, black symbolized death so our belts were Midnight Blue, we also never had kiddie blackbelts, Dan memebers were 18. We would show up (here in Michigan) at many of the open tourniments and many of the Tae Kwon Do guys use to wait and see how many of us showed up, before they would decide to fight, cause they new we had every kick they had but we were much harder kickers. It was something that made you proud to be in TSD. I had to wait years to get my 1st Dan because of my age I got it when I was 16 and at that time I was one of the youngest ever. But now!!! My old instructor who I out grew many moons ago ( he is very much a sylist and one dementional) but a fantastic TSD Man in fact the first to bring it to the U.S. anyways now he has kiddie blackbelts, an they even wear blackbelts something he beat into our heads when I was a kid that was WRONG! and last time I saw one of his classes it was basically a TKD class, I gusess it sells better. And as far as TKD and TSD when I was a kid part of the reason I got promoted at my age is my boxing skills from being on the Kronk Jr team, allowed me to dominate many of my adult counter parts, which didn't look good in class, see back then TKD and TSD where very limited in hand tech. but guess what most of the TKD and TSD guys now have decent hands , they incorperate a lot of boxing skills, some did it on their own some it came down from the top of there organizations, however it happened it was not a part of their regiment years ago, it is know and they still call it TKD or TSD. So I guess Modern Arnis will end up the same.

And Paul, if you think about it the same thing pretty much happended to Balintawak. In the end it all boils down to what you put into it and what you want out of it. And I am sure you will find things that you will add to your Balintawak and teach it to your students, but morethan likely you will still call it Balintawak, and why shouldn't you!

Take care
Rocky

 

[loki09789]

Amen Rocky,

That is my personal feel too. Evolution is the way to go. Too many Martial arts programs really like dust on their manuals and practice for building those intangible qualities of integrity, character, confidence... because that is easier to sell... I mean justify to a market... I mean parent, than fighting skill and realistic preparation for a fight. I truly believe that those intangible qualities are VERY important and are still taught in 'fighting' schools, but to see only that dimension of Martial arts is to forget the MARTIAL aspect of the art.

As far as MA, I agree that evolution and change are the key to growth. My comments were really just a summary of my observations of what was being tossed around on this thread. I have no problem with technical evolution. I do feel disappointed when I see the tone, lack of professionalism/respect during some of 'discussions' of differing view points. My point about the universal statement was just an idea on how to draw a respect line about agreeing to disagree in a mature and professional way instead of reducing the 'discussion' into a character slam. Attack the issues not the man sort of thing.

The best part of a boxing match for me isn't the two fit athletes, blasting each other with hits and punishment. It's the hug and hand shake at the end. In anything less than a life or death battle, we can argue and fight all day... just remember that we have to help each other to the hospital when it's done.

Paul Martin