Mindless rambling about where FMA's are going

[Tgace]

I’m kind of formulating this idea on the fly here so bear with me...Guro Paul Martin, who sometimes posts here, is an old friend of mine and we get into some long philosophical discussions about the martial arts. A couple of days ago we got off onto a tangent about why some martial arts in the USA draw large numbers of students and can support franchise dojos (read TaeKwanDo) with weeklong multi-class sessions. While others draw handfuls of students (I have yet to see FMA schools that "pack em in" on a daily basis).

Some of the points we touched on are...

The power of the children’s class. It seems that a major student draw in the US is parents looking to get their kids "some discipline" and exercise and the militaristic, organized, lined up class structure of a classic "Karate school" fit the bill better than the looser, small group structure that many FMA groups work with.

The fact that FMA, due in large part to its seminar-based propagation in the US, has become more of an "add-on" martial art, than a school structure based in its own principals. At least in my experience, I have seen many classic MA schools with "also featuring" adds including Arnis, Kendo, cardio-kickboxing etc. etc. much more often than I have seen any FMA dedicated dojos.

The "Warrior" / self-improvement angle...Classical MA and military type styles (TKD is still a component for promotions in the Korean military) have the religious, meditative, spiritual reputations that draw people looking for that "inner development" martial arts mastery type stuff that has been associated with the "warrior lifestyle" crowd. In my experience, FMA seems to have a closer affiliation with "down and dirty" fighting than it does to Aikido or the Karate styles with practitioners looking to hone inner discipline, and the "warrior spirit" yadda yadda....

As I said this is kind of free flowing idea here, in no way am I pointing out strength or weakness in any martial art style, or saying that chains of FMA schools would be a goal to aim for. What I guess I’m getting at is what do we all see as the FMA's place in the martial arts community? Where should it be going?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by Tgace
1)....why some martial arts in the USA draw large numbers of students and can support franchise dojos (read TaeKwanDo) with weeklong multi-class sessions. While others draw handfuls of students (I have yet to see FMA schools that "pack em in" on a daily basis).

2) The power of the children’s class. It seems that a major student draw in the US is parents looking to get their kids "some discipline" and exercise and the militaristic, organized, lined up class structure of a classic "Karate school" fit the bill better than the looser, small group structure that many FMA groups work with.

3) The fact that FMA, due in large part to its seminar-based propagation in the US, has become more of an "add-on" martial art, than a school structure based in its own principals. At least in my experience, I have seen many classic MA schools with "also featuring" adds including Arnis, Kendo, cardio-kickboxing etc. etc. much more often than I have seen any FMA dedicated dojos.

4) The "Warrior" / self-improvement angle...Classical MA and military type styles (TKD is still a component for promotions in the Korean military) have the religious, meditative, spiritual reputations that draw people looking for that "inner development" martial arts mastery type stuff that has been associated with the "warrior lifestyle" crowd. In my experience, FMA seems to have a closer affiliation with "down and dirty" fighting than it does to Aikido or the Karate styles with practitioners looking to hone inner discipline, and the "warrior spirit" yadda yadda....

5) What I guess I’m getting at is what do we all see as the FMA's place in the martial arts community? Where should it be going?

I added numbers to address and edited some text.

1) This you semi answered with number 2) the power of kids classes and the perception that parents might have about their kiddos learning a weapon based martial art system. In order to keep the doors open you must have students, in order to have students you must cater to their perceived needs, not what you want. If you don't meet their needs than you close the doors.

2) Kids classes keep the doors open on many schools here in the states. Adults (parents) have a hard enough time thinking they need (want) weapons based training, how much less do they want little Johnny swinging a stick around the house smashing lamps, TV's, etc. etc. or cracking a brother or sister over the head.

3) While yes the FMA is largely a seminar based instruction institution here in the states it is for that reason that it is an add on art. People want to learn self defense and if the instructor is a high ranked instructor in another system and he sells it as a effective tool/system to learn self defense than he would be nuts to allow a system such as the FMA's into his school that would differ from his main system. So it's taught on the side line without much emphasis which gives the students the idea that it isn't as good or important as the main system. Otherwise wouldn't the instructor be teaching it instead.

I ran into this at a school I use to teach for, the students would come in for the 1st hour of my class and then be all wide eyed and googly to run off to their next class of a system that they trained in every day of the week (I taught 1 night a month for a 2 hour weapon class and traveled 60 miles to get there to do it). However the longer students took my class the more they then stayed and blew off the other class, they saw the value of it.

4) Here I disagree somewhat. I don't think the spiritual aspect plays much in the MA here in the USA, maybe in other parts of the world but not here. In fact there isn't much meditating going on here, since it might have religious connotations and the school owner wants to cater to the potential student.

I think there is a fear of weapons that people have and people don't want to deal with it. I had a owner of a security company come to my class after he had just gotten beat up on the job and put in the hospital, however I was to radical for him because I was showing the students the 12 angles of attack feeding drill and the angles 1 and 2 were to extreme for him. He didn't even want to have those strikes in his muscle memory for fear of getting sued. He couldn't do it. Same thing with a law enforcement officer (former student), at least though he saw the value of it and continued to train. But it was hard for him at first to block his head when he wanted to go for that thigh strike.

5) I think it needs to continue going where it is at now. Some great instructors have produced some great students who are in turn passing on the art in small classes or groups. Some vetern martial artists are now looking to arnis and other FMAs to cross train in. The FMA has had some impact on some major movies Bourne Idenity and The Hunted and I think since the quality of the fight scenes was pretty goood that they (FMAs) will be used again.

Mark

 

[Tgace]

To keep the topic going...IMHO i think that the seminar based introduction of FMA into the states kinda fated it to be a "sideline" martial art. Who takes these seminars? Why martial artists of other styles of course. They took it back and used it as another sales point for their school. Like you said it would be nuts in a business sense to let it be otherwise.

So in your opinion will the FMA conquer fron within (in an infiltration sense) or is it fated to blend into other arts and slowly loose its own identity?

 

[Mark Lynn]

I think so however it might not be like we want it to.

Some people go to a couple of seminars and get some sort of rank and then take it back to their schools and try and pass them selves off as FMA teachers.

Some people take some seminars then apply the techniques to their arts and incorperate them (as the Borg assimilates others ) and then try and pass it off as their own. Or it might be they take the principles and apply them to their art and it is their own then.

Some people go to a bunch of seminars (since that is the only way to learn that's available to them at the time) and then really try and learn the material that was presented and in turn teach the material to students/other people.

Some people were/are lucky enough to train under an instructor that had a direct link to a FMA master/instructor and then they (a select few) will pass it on.

In the end I think it will become like any other martial art systems if the art and the instructor(s) are good then it will survie intact. If not then some of it will survive in one form or another.

Mark

 

[dearnis.com]

I think the real problem is that FMAs take folks way, way outside their comfort zones. And most folks cant take this.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by Tgace
To keep the topic going...IMHO i think that the seminar based introduction of FMA into the states kinda fated it to be a "sideline" martial art. Who takes these seminars? Why martial artists of other styles of course. They took it back and used it as another sales point for their school. Like you said it would be nuts in a business sense to let it be otherwise.

I disagree that it makes good business sense to use the FMA as another sales point for thier school. Only a few schools that I have seen do this. Sometimes the schools will teach a FMA type class in order to reach out and try and tap another market.

But like the class that I taught it kind of made a point as to how the main arts at the school (a Korean system, and a more modern self defense system) lacked in the weapons based area. Therefore I in a sense competed with the school.

In fact another instructor over heard (or was talking to another karate instructor) at GM Ernesto's seminar that I sponsored about how he couldn't bring in someone like Ernesto or have a program like that in his school because it would compete with his karate program. (The one instructor told me this after the seminar). In fact this instructor who made the comment use to sponsor GM Remy in for seminars.

The schools that I have seen that teach a FMA type class are sometimes Kenpo schools, or like the JKD concept schools that teach it as part of their curriculmn. But I haven't seen many that teach the FMA class as part of a karate / TKD / Kung Fu type school.

Time for work
Mark

 

[stickarts]

The arnis segment in our school has always been no more than 10% of the enrollment in our other programs. The group has been small but very dedicated. The group arnis class barely pays for itself (although private lessons do well). I do it mainly because i love the arnis. The arnis could not even come close to paying the bills and keeping me in business! However, it does not compete or conflict with my other programs either.
It is a small, but very worthwhile addition to the school.

 

[bloodwood]

I think another reason is that when people think of the Martial Arts they don't think of the Philippines. They associate it with China, Japan and Korea as the main stream for these arts. When people see what we have to offer they are usually interested in learning. Many schools are looking to add weapons based styles to their curriculum but only as an add on. For now we just have to take what we can get with the knowledge that we really do have what they want.

bloodwood

 

[loki09789]

I have to agree with the idea that Japanese, Chinese, Korean Martial arts have overshadowed other areas for martial arts.

American/Western wrestling, yes I mean WWF style has it's roots in Catch fighting which is a very brutal and effective style. But the impression of Catch and WWF styles is that it is too corny or low class. Boxing and fencing have a direct relationship and there are some very good street variations within boxing that include some of the corto range FMA styles. But fencing is associated with an elitist mentallity and is VERY expensive to participate in.

Tom Bolden had an interesting idea that FMA on Western Boxing because of boxer sailors/soldiers using the very upright Marquis de Queensbury style getting beat by the more fluid, slippery Filipino during smokers in the PI.

Filipino martial arts is a late comer to the Martial arts market in the US compared to the 'big three' countries of influence. Also, I think that the selling points of FMA of adaptiveness, flexibility of response, less rooted in 'traditional' practice mentallity and the conceptual approach was competing with Bruce Lee and JKD. They share a lot of characteristics on those lines. It is no wonder that one of the base systems in most JKD programs is FMA.

Paul Martin

 

[loki09789]

I think the religious, spiritual idea of 'traditional arts' isn't always as obvious as meditation or converting to buddhism.

The chinese arts generally are influenced by Confusionism (rank and order/hierarchy, respect lines...), Taoism (Tai Chi Chuan, Pagua...), or Buddhism (Shaolin related systems). The Japanese arts are influenced by Buddhism, Zen and Bushido. Korean arts generally are Confucionistically influenced too with it's para military class structure. These philosophies emphasis harmony, respect, and order on a large scale. That aspect is what I think draws people in. The idea that there is a structured, ordered environment that they can see in every bow, belt and lineage.

FMA comes from a clannish, tribal root in a country that is a melting pot of cultures and identities. This means that the curriculum, customs and origins of FMAs vary much more so than in the 'traditional arts.' A student who moves from one area to another can find more similarities if they change from Shotokan to Isshinryu than if they change from Modern Arnis to Pakita Tersia, or KunTao or Cinco Terros systems. The class custom and formats of each of these schools will be very different in the eyes of beginning students.

I think that students have a harder time getting started in FMA than in traditional arts because it is a concept art, where trad arts are more technique and obvious to beginners.

I know this is my second post and long, sorry. Tom said that we had talked about this alot so I have comments on the cuff for this one.

Paul Martin

 

[Tgace]

Modern Arnis, being foremost a weapon based system, dosent present itself has having a comprehensive emptyhand component, making it less of a draw for absolute newcomers to the MA. If I were a newbie looking to take a class in "self-defense" I believe I would be more attracted to a style that had more punching/kicking/grappling and emptyhand sparring a la TKD, Karate etc.

FMA seems to be more accepted by experienced martial artists who can appreciate the conceptual approach and dont require somebody telling them how to do every movement and technique in a regimented step-by-step format. Sort of a graduate program in the martial arts if you get my drift.

That being said, I think thats why FMA has the tendancy to blend into some arts like Kenpo and JKD that have similar movement styles and dont really have a strictly "traditional" weapons system of their own. (Yes I know that Kenpo has some traditional Chinese weapons associated with their systems, but I have seen few schools that really teach them like Karate does with Bo, Sai, Kama, etc.)

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Tgace
Modern Arnis, being foremost a weapon based system, dosent present itself has having a comprehensive emptyhand component, making it less of a draw for absolute newcomers to the MA.

That depends on who your teacher is. I've been taught that Modern Arnis has more emptyhand techniques than people think. When I teach at a seminar, most of the people who attend practice another system first and choose to crosstrain into MA. I'm not going teach then how to punch and kick. I teach them the elements that they don't aready have, the weapons. In my school I teach everyone from scratch. Punching, kicking, lock and throws. My school is a Modern Arnis school first!

 

[loki09789]

My background was in other arts before FMA and MA so I didn't come up from scratch. Also, my FMA/MA curriculum was blended with Kenpo.

In a strictly MA curriculum, where do the empty hand techniques get introduced and how are they taught? Multiple reps, like a boxing/traditional Karate; or is it more a familiarization training and students improve by incorporating them into techniques and give and take drills?

The second is how I was taught and have taught FMA empty hand. I like it because it emphasises movement and application. THe down side is that it may take longer for mechanical mastery of a punch or kick. I generally use a combination that emphasises a students need. I just don't know how it works in a
'Traditionally' MA class.

Paul Martin

 

[Rocky]

Ecellent idea for a post!!

I’m kind of formulating this idea on the fly here so bear with me...Guro Paul Martin, who sometimes posts here, is an old friend of mine and we get into some long philosophical discussions about the martial arts. A couple of days ago we got off onto a tangent about why some martial arts in the USA draw large numbers of students and can support franchise dojos (read TaeKwanDo) with weeklong multi-class sessions. While others draw handfuls of students

I think you pretty much hit it on the head with most of your points give or take a few.


I also think that the person who said that most FMA"s take people out of their comfort zone is very true.


And Tim Wrote:

That depends on who your teacher is. I've been taught that Modern Arnis has more emptyhand techniques than people think. When I teach at a seminar, most of the people who attend practice another system first and choose to crosstrain into MA. I'm not going teach then how to punch and kick. I teach them the elements that they don't aready have, the weapons. In my school I teach everyone from scratch. Punching, kicking, lock and throws. My school is a Modern Arnis school first!

Damn!! Tim you must be getting old cause you know wisdom comes with age!!! You couldn't be more right about this. People who say Modern Arnis is primarily a seminar or add on art are the people who only trained at a seminar, go figure!

Keep in mind the closer an art is to real fighting the harder it is to teach to the masses thats why Catch fighting, a truely American Martial arts along with Native American fighting is so hard to find.

Lets not forget that arts ike Tae Kwon Do have the full force of the Korean government behind it in promoting.


On last thing that I think gives FMA'ers the right to hold their heads high is. Think about this, how often do fma guys go to the more commercial arts to get something from them??? I'l bet dimes to dollars not near as often as they come to us.!!!
From my own experience 9 out of 10 of my students are previously trained. Some of them have more years in the martial arts than I have been alive!!!!! To me that says a lot for the FMA's.


Rocky

 

[loki09789]

I agree with Rocky that there are a lot of artists who look for FMA cross training or leave current arts to come over. But, my question is do you think it is because the other arts are more 'popular' - read common and easier to find in the phone book - and once they get into the arts they hear about FMA, or is it because they have enough foundation that the concept approach isn't so intimidating?

I lean toward the first reason as the bigger of the two. The more popular arts are better exposed to the uninitiated and easier to find. If you look in the back of Martial Arts mags, you can find market consulting firms that teach artists how to set up a school for financial success. These are generally geared toward the TKD, Karate type arts and work very well that way. I don't see FMA arts having the same business training support like that. I think it is part of the future of the art, but it isn't really there right now.

Paul Martin

 

[sercuerdasfigther]

i think fma always was and still is a tribal art. it's bakyard training and that's how it will stay. having talked to artists from other styles, i feel the fma mind set is just to intense for most people. even guys who fight muaythai or nhb couldn't image using a weapon on a person, it's just to direct.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Renegade
That depends on who your teacher is. I've been taught that Modern Arnis has more emptyhand techniques than people think. When I teach at a seminar, most of the people who attend practice another system first and choose to crosstrain into MA. I'm not going teach then how to punch and kick. I teach them the elements that they don't aready have, the weapons. In my school I teach everyone from scratch. Punching, kicking, lock and throws. My school is a Modern Arnis school first!

Yes you may teach punching kicking and throws, but where did those methods in your school curriculum come from? You weren't taught all of that from just Modern Arnis, Tim. Nor did Professor Presas "create" his system from nothing. He trainined in and borrowed from other arts, just like many "innovators" of today.

Give credit where it's due. I remember back in the late 80's you used to make fun of other instructors calling their arnis "kenpo with a stick" not really understanding where they were coming from, and now you have a big connection to kenpo and bando. The belt ranking requirements on your web site even lists a number of kenpo techniques. Is it a coincidence that you happened to use the same name Ed Parker and Al Tracy used for a different technique, or is it that you weren't crative enough to at least change the name for the technique that you "borrowed"? You even commute to Michgan to train in Balitawak. If your Modern Arnis training was so complete then why go to such lenths to diversify in such a way? I apologize for sounding arguementative, but it sounds like you're telling everybidy here that you have something nobody in Modern Arnis has, and that is simply not true. You just have a different approach.

Much of the empty handed modern arnis has roots elsewhere, and vary from school to school. Modern Arnis joint locks reflect GM Wlly Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu influence. Tapi- tapi tastes a lot like Balitawak, but not quite. Even the modern arnis anyos are heavily flavored with Shotokan karate. You can't deny that.


Tim Kashino

 

[Tgace]

Originally posted by sercuerdasfigther
i think fma always was and still is a tribal art. it's bakyard training and that's how it will stay. having talked to artists from other styles, i feel the fma mind set is just to intense for most people. even guys who fight muaythai or nhb couldn't image using a weapon on a person, it's just to direct.

True,but lets be realistic, many FMArtists are no "better prepared" to engage in "real combat" than any other art. Just because you train with sticks, knives, disarms etc dosent mean you are mentally prepared to use them on another person. IMHO arts that do a lot of sparring have the edge in regards to knowing what taking and giving real blows actually feels like. I remember working out with a Thi Boxing Chief Warrant Officer when I was in the service and trying to use block/check/counters against even 1/2 speed jabs and crosses(and kicks,knees,elbows..ouch).....lets just say that all FMA students could gain some insight by incoroprating some freestyle fighting.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Yes you may teach punching kicking and throws, but where did those methods in your school curriculum come from? You weren't taught all of that from just Modern Arnis, Tim.
[...]
Much of the empty handed modern arnis has roots elsewhere, and vary from school to school. Modern Arnis joint locks reflect GM Wlly Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu influence. Tapi- tapi tastes a lot like Balitawak, but not quite. Even the modern arnis anyos are heavily flavored with Shotokan karate. You can't deny that.

Of course not--but all of the SCJJ, anyos, and tapi-tapi came to us via Prof. Presas as part of Modern Arnis.

The Balintawak techniques are educational--they shed light on the development of the system. The Prof. had encouraged Mr. Hartman to study Balintawak in order to better understand Modern Arnis--much as studying Latin will sharpen your Italian!

The biggest influences of Bando and Kenpo on the WMAA's curriculum have been semantic and organizational. It's the idea of naming techniques and principles more than the techniques themselves, which overwhelmingly are the Professor's techniques or natural innovations thereof. These are pedagogical, not technical, issues.

Certainly Modern Arnis drew from a variety of Filipino and Japanese arts (and others). But the throws, hand techniques, etc. are things learned from the Prof.

 

[sercuerdasfigther]

empty handed don't try block/check/counter,try crack/jam/crack you need to inflict pain on the thai boxers limbs or your done.

as far as fma not being prepare to really use there art, i guess that all depends on the person and there teacher.

one last point(out of order,sorry) are empty hand is not meant for squaring off with a person. if they just attack,you react, but if you know a fight must happen just attack. never allow a thai boxer(or anybody else for that matter square off(it's a big advantage for them).