MartialTalk and the COVID-19 Pandemic

[JowGaWolf]

I was speaking of the US but I had forgotten how bad Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy was in Europe in the 80's & 90's. Something like 5 million cattle were slaughtered to prevent the spread confirmed in about 1/4 million head.

The only reason the U.S. hasn't seen something like that in a while is due to all of the regulation that people complain about. Farmer and Ranchers understand the dangers of a disease out break and how it affects. Georgia had one in it's poultry industry when Bird Flu hit. There are still guides and FDA information on how to go about culling the herd that are still available.

Preventive measure work better than reactive measures. Catch it early as possible isolate, kill part of the herd if it will save the rest.

yes excessive cleanliness is very bad for you, got to keep your immune system up and running

Live with a pet, flush a toilet, go hiking, do some gardening without gloves if you are that worried about not getting enough germs. Many Americans wear shoes inside the house so there's that. From public restrooms to germs on the street, and dirty grocery floors. It all gets tracked back to your car and then into your house.

You act like there's a shortage of germs.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm pretty sure people who had measles parties had very little understanding of the virus. Similar to how people in the U.S. were having Covid-19 parties.

I do not follow the news in every corner of the world but I am certain there have been no openly promoted Covid-19 parties in my area like there were with the measles. I think the measles were more understood than you give it credit for.
As far as Covid parties on a large scale I have to call bs on that one. Have some idiots somewhere done it? Of that I am certain. We can be pretty stupid creatures.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here is something else cattlemen & women do Not do related to your point. We are very, very, very careful not to needlessly or overly use medications to prevent resistance

This is no shock. This is the same thing that medical doctors speak of when treating illness in people. The reason for not over medicating has nothing to do with keeping the animal healthy, It's done so that the medicine that is available doesn't become less effective. All living organisms have an ability to build resistance to a certain level. Bacteria are better at it than larger organisms because their evolution is faster. Millions of generations are born long before we have 2 human generations born. It's the same reason why they don't want people to throw medicine in the toilet.

It exposes bacteria to the medicines at a level that allows the bacteria to build a resistance. Similar to how doctors say "Take all the medicine, even when you feel better" They say this so that the medication kills it off. Stop too soon and the bacteria builds a resistance. hence the term "Super bugs" or "Super germs."

IF something is causing this virus to mutate I would more believe it is the current overuse of sanitizers by humans.

Mutation can be caused by a few things. Pollution, Air quality, temperature, chemicals. But natural mutation also occurs through reproduction as a way to adapt.
Not all mutations are bad, most mutations aid in adaptation. Skin color, body hair, height, muscular development, metabolisms have all experienced some kind of mutation that allows humans to be better suited for different environments. This type of mutation happens over many generations and it aids in survival. Viruses will do the same thing. The main biological programing for a virus is about reproducing. The vaccines that are currently being worked on don't kill the virus. Instead they prevent it from reproducing /replicating in your body.

Bats and pigs did not use hand sanitizer so why is it that the virus mutated and jumped from animals to humans. If hand sanitizers were the cause the the animals would have had to use the hand sanitizers since they are the host and carriers of the virus. In addition, it doesn't affect animals the same way it affects humans.

 

[dvcochran]

The only reason the U.S. hasn't seen something like that in a while is due to all of the regulation that people complain about. Farmer and Ranchers understand the dangers of a disease out break and how it affects. Georgia had one in it's poultry industry when Bird Flu hit. There are still guides and FDA information on how to go about culling the herd that are still available.

Preventive measure work better than reactive measures. Catch it early as possible isolate, kill part of the herd if it will save the rest.


Live with a pet, flush a toilet, go hiking, do some gardening without gloves if you are that worried about not getting enough germs. Many Americans wear shoes inside the house so there's that. From public restrooms to germs on the street, and dirty grocery floors. It all gets tracked back to your car and then into your house.

You act like there's a shortage of germs.

Nope, it is mother nature being mother nature. I am not naive enough to think something like regulations (which are usually post epidemic) are going to prevent something like the avian flu, swine flu, measles, or Covid-19 (mild by comparison) to occur.
And that comes from someone who is enough of a conspiracy theorist to believe much of our health issues could be prevented if there wasn't so much money in them; and in death itself for that matter.

 

[dvcochran]

Go and pull up the all the laws and regulations of your country and you can see for yourself.

You really, really need to crack a history book on several nations and you will learn just how great the freedoms in the US really are. It is foolish to say 'there is no real freedom'. This is how things like morals, ethics, and just plain common sense get lost. I/we are free to do anything we want. But most of use are smart enough with enough morals and ethics not to go out and kill someone, even if we wanted to do so. It is like saying I can stop breathing if I wish. I can until I pass out and then my body naturally takes over. Our rules and regulations are much the same; they do not stop a person from doing anything if they so choose. But they are trail markers to show us the better way to go.
That is some strange thinking you have.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I do not follow the news in every corner of the world but I am certain there have been no openly promoted Covid-19 parties

This is a good thing if no Covid-19 parties were held in your area.

As far as Covid parties on a large scale I have to call bs on that one. Have some idiots somewhere done it? Of that I am certain. We can be pretty stupid creatures.

This wasn't done on a large scale. It was a few pockets of the U.S. sort of like how some people are anti-vaccine. It's not a large scale thing, just in pockets. Which is good as well. The few that took place were back when people thought COVID-19 was just like the flu. The theory was to catch it like the flu and to build an immunity to it. Thinking that it will be like the flu in that you would be less likely to catch it again that year.

It quickly faded once the body counts started. Then it was young people aren't affected by it mess. The entire spread of information is FUBAR. The scientist initially thought the virus is a respiratory one, but now they think it may be a blood disease, which probably better explains things like organ failure and why "they say people with Blood type O" don't catch it easily. If blood types affect the ability to infect then it starts to point to blood. But I'm not placing any bets on that yet. Scientists are still in the discovery phase.

The reality about Scientist is that it's true that they are Right., but they do a lot of failing (scientific method) before they come up with a correct answer. I think of scientific discoveries and answers as as series of screw ups that lead you to the right answer. Right now we are still in that "series of screw ups"

My approach to Covid-19 has been simple. I watched it cross the globe and I watch what works for the people in the countries that had it before the U.S. had it. The only things I've trusted in terms of science is how viruses enter the body. That much is well known and proven. Anything else science has to say about Covid-19, I consider it to still be in the discovery phase, which is why we often hear scientist still say "There's much that we don't know about the virus."

Airborne viruses enter through the nose, mouth, and eyes. I'm assuming they can enter the through the ear as well, but may have a difficult time due to the ear wax. So with that known reality, masks make sense to me, washing hands make sense to me as I often touch my face and rub my eyes. All of that other "discovery" stuff that scientist say, I look at as a temporary understanding that is most likely to change.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You really, really need to crack a history book on several nations and you will learn just how great the freedoms in the US really are. It is foolish to say 'there is no real freedom'.

A society with absolute freedom has no laws. Laws determine what your freedoms are and what they aren't. in 2016 there were "2.3 million people were incarcerated in the United States"

Where is their freedom? I'll use MT as an example. Are we free to talk about politics and sexual intercourse in this forum? Rules say no. MT takes away your freedom. We willingly give that freedom up when we come to MT because MT determines where freedom of speech begins and ends. Can I run around my neighborhood nude? Well what if I'm on my own property? nope? I should be able to if I have absolute freedom. If I own cabin in the woods with no neighbors then I could do it. So why do I have freedom there and not in my neighborhood? Rules, laws, and regulations restrict freedoms, especially when it's in the best interest in the health of society.

This is the definition of freedom.
free·dom - the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

A lot of thing that you think are free are only free within the boundaries a law that either prevents or restrains. Things like driving a car isn't freedom there are laws and regulations that determine if you can drive a car. Even if you can drive a car, it doesn't mean you are fee to operate a motorcyle.
Speech is not free. It's regulated.

Georgia law on speech "They are also guaranteed by the Georgia Constitution in Article 1, section 1, paragraph 5: "No law shall be passed to curtail or restrain the freedom of speech or of the press. -Every person may speak, write, and publish sentiments on all subjects but shall be responsible for the abuse of that liberty.""

Did you catch that last part? "but shall be responsible for the abuse of that liberty." How can I abuse something that is considered a freedom? Is it really "freedom of speech if I can be locked up for the words that come out of my mouth or for the words that I type or print?"

But most of use are smart enough with enough morals and ethics not to go out and kill someone, even if we wanted to do so.

Most of us is not ALL OF US.
In 2019, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 16,425
In 2018, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 16,214
In 2017, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 17,284

One can only assume that all the people who murder someone in 2017 also murdered someone in 2018. The assumption that I'm more likely to make is that many of those murders in 2018 were from people who didn't murder someone in 2017. These could be people who fit your assumption "Most of us are smart enough with enough morals and ethics in 2017 then didn't fit it in 2018.

It is like saying I can stop breathing if I wish. I can until I pass out and then my body naturally takes over.

You can do this in the U.S. it's a freedom But if you choose to do it while flying a plane then the co-pilot can report you, which may result in your removal. Again, due to your negligence cause by you willingly holding your breath until you pass out. Again laws and regulation, will determine where you can do something. You can do it all you want in your home.

Montpelier man tells police crash that injured three caused when he held his breath, passed out
driver was cited for assault (4th degree), reckless driving and three counts of reckless endangering. Source: Police: Driver holding breath in tunnel faints, causes crash

There are laws and regulations that dictate time and place that one can do such a thing.

Pools ban prolonged breath holding after young man's death
Learning to hold your breath is an essential skill when learning to swim. However, certain types of breath holding can be deadly. The YMCA prohibits breath holding activities such as static apnea – a practice where a person holds his or her breath in a motionless position. Static apnea is a particular concern because the swimmer’s lack of movement provides no feedback to the lifeguard as to whether or not the swimmer is ok. YMCA lifeguards are trained to react to any person who remains motionless under water for more than 10 seconds. Prolonged breath holding is not permitted at the Y at any time, with or without supervision.

Mecklenburg County, as a whole, enforces the same ban at all public pools
source: Pools ban prolonged breath holding after young man's death | wcnc.com

 

[JowGaWolf]

You really, really need to crack a history book on several nations and you will learn just how great the freedoms in the US really are.

The U.S. allows you to do more things with fewer restrictions than what other countries have. Having restrictions is not the same has having freedom. The fact that the laws determine if you have freedom or not kind of counters the idea that "we have true freedom." As a someone in a jail cell about their freedom. As a society we it fit to jail another and to remove their freedoms. Is that really true freedom? What if you are innocent of a crime and you spend time in jail? What about that freedom.

 

[jobo]

The only reason the U.S. hasn't seen something like that in a while is due to all of the regulation that people complain about. Farmer and Ranchers understand the dangers of a disease out break and how it affects. Georgia had one in it's poultry industry when Bird Flu hit. There are still guides and FDA information on how to go about culling the herd that are still available.

Preventive measure work better than reactive measures. Catch it early as possible isolate, kill part of the herd if it will save the rest.


Live with a pet, flush a toilet, go hiking, do some gardening without gloves if you are that worried about not getting enough germs. Many Americans wear shoes inside the house so there's that. From public restrooms to germs on the street, and dirty grocery floors. It all gets tracked back to your car and then into your house.

You act like there's a shortage of germs.

well these people are generally healthier than cleanliness freaks

the problem isnt theres not enough germs in the world rather there not enough germs on your hand being transferred to your body, now fetal matter needs some consideration, you can definitely over do that, but everything else you encounter on an average day does you more good than harm

so the problem with obsessive hand sanitiser is two fold, 1 it puts your immune system to sleep so when you actually do need it it doesn't work properly and second it will soon breed resistant covid meaning it wont work if you actually need to sanatise your hands after someone sneeze on you

 

[jobo]

The U.S. allows you to do more things with fewer restrictions than what other countries have. Having restrictions is not the same has having freedom. The fact that the laws determine if you have freedom or not kind of counters the idea that "we have true freedom." As a someone in a jail cell about their freedom. As a society we it fit to jail another and to remove their freedoms. Is that really true freedom? What if you are innocent of a crime and you spend time in jail? What about that freedom.

under English common law systems everything that isnt specifically banned is allowed, which differs from the continental system of everything that isnt specifically allowed is banned. most of the states being an english common law jurisdiction

you do indeed have absolute freedom in america in that if you dont like the laws you can leave, breaking the laws rather than leaving, may well see your freedom to leave curtailed some what, but thats coz you did it in the wrong order

but your correct in that freedoms are being steadily and progressively eroded, why then are you in favour of speeding up that reduction in freedoms, particularly when this will have almost no positive outcomes as far as covid is concerned

and if you reply saying it will, il ask you to prove it, which ive asked before and all i got in response was a load of waffle

 

[dvcochran]

The U.S. allows you to do more things with fewer restrictions than what other countries have. Having restrictions is not the same has having freedom. The fact that the laws determine if you have freedom or not kind of counters the idea that "we have true freedom." As a someone in a jail cell about their freedom. As a society we it fit to jail another and to remove their freedoms. Is that really true freedom? What if you are innocent of a crime and you spend time in jail? What about that freedom.

Wow, just wow. That is far beyond being liberal in your thinking and downright scary that you do not see the gross disconnection.
So you are saying there should be no jails? No recourse when someone wrongs you, steals from you, kills your child, and on and on. No police or court systems? No recourse if someone cheats you in your business? Any of these offenses should be left to you alone to deal with?
I at a loss as to how to reason with you kind of thinking.

 

[dvcochran]

This is a good thing if no Covid-19 parties were held in your area.

This wasn't done on a large scale. It was a few pockets of the U.S. sort of like how some people are anti-vaccine. It's not a large scale thing, just in pockets. Which is good as well. The few that took place were back when people thought COVID-19 was just like the flu. The theory was to catch it like the flu and to build an immunity to it. Thinking that it will be like the flu in that you would be less likely to catch it again that year.

It quickly faded once the body counts started. Then it was young people aren't affected by it mess. The entire spread of information is FUBAR. The scientist initially thought the virus is a respiratory one, but now they think it may be a blood disease, which probably better explains things like organ failure and why "they say people with Blood type O" don't catch it easily. If blood types affect the ability to infect then it starts to point to blood. But I'm not placing any bets on that yet. Scientists are still in the discovery phase.

The reality about Scientist is that it's true that they are Right., but they do a lot of failing (scientific method) before they come up with a correct answer. I think of scientific discoveries and answers as as series of screw ups that lead you to the right answer. Right now we are still in that "series of screw ups"

My approach to Covid-19 has been simple. I watched it cross the globe and I watch what works for the people in the countries that had it before the U.S. had it. The only things I've trusted in terms of science is how viruses enter the body. That much is well known and proven. Anything else science has to say about Covid-19, I consider it to still be in the discovery phase, which is why we often hear scientist still say "There's much that we don't know about the virus."

Airborne viruses enter through the nose, mouth, and eyes. I'm assuming they can enter the through the ear as well, but may have a difficult time due to the ear wax. So with that known reality, masks make sense to me, washing hands make sense to me as I often touch my face and rub my eyes. All of that other "discovery" stuff that scientist say, I look at as a temporary understanding that is most likely to change.

So how does this jive with your freedom rhetoric? You are counting on someone else (scientist) to determine how you act and what you should/should not do. How is this not affecting your 'freedoms' in the definitions you spouted earlier?
Just ridiculous thinking.

 

[Bruce7]

The People that are dying in South Dakota with their last breaths say I don't have covid, it is a hoax.

 

[Steve]

The People that are dying in South Dakota with their last breaths say I don't have covid, it is a hoax.

I "liked" your post, but to be clear, I hate the message, but appreciate you sharing it.

 

[jobo]

its just occurred me, they are claiming the covid vaccine gives you a 95% chance of surviving covid exposure, where as not having the vaccine gives you a 99% chance of surviving,

something wrong here, when the vaccine is less effective than our own immune systems

 

[Steve]

its just occurred me, they are claiming the covid vaccine gives you a 95% chance of surviving covid exposure, where as not having the vaccine gives you a 99% chance of surviving,

something wrong here, when the vaccine is less effective than our own immune systems

You misunderstand the 95% figure. Look it up again and read it more carefully.

 

[jobo]

You misunderstand the 95% figure. Look it up again and read it more carefully.

no, im pretty sure im correct

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

no, im pretty sure im correct

It's 95% protection against getting the disease. So 95% chance of not getting COVID even if you're around the disease. meanwhile the 99% claim (which isn't accurate per Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center) is whether or not you will die with COVID. In the US you've got about a 98% chance of survival if you have the disease. So with the vaccine, assuming the numbers are all correct, you've got a 5% chance of getting the disease after exposure, and then a 2% of dying if you have the disease, which means that you've actually got a .1% chance of dying after being exposed to the virus, if you have the vaccine.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As far as I know there's no actual % chance of getting COVID after being exposed. If there was, you could compare it to the above .1% chance of dying w/ vaccine & exposure in the US, to the % chance of dying w/exposure and no vaccine in the US, to see how important it is.

 

[jobo]

It's 95% protection against getting the disease. So 95% chance of not getting COVID even if you're around the disease. meanwhile the 99% claim (which isn't accurate per Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center) is whether or not you will die with COVID. In the US you've got about a 98% chance of survival if you have the disease. So with the vaccine, assuming the numbers are all correct, you've got a 5% chance of getting the disease after exposure, and then a 2% of dying if you have the disease, which means that you've actually got a .1% chance of dying after being exposed to the virus, if you

but getting the virus isnt the problem, its dieing of it that is, so with the vaccine i have a 1% chance of dieing, with out the vacine i have a 1% chance of dieing or using your figures a 2% chance,,, so not really worth the bother