Martial myths

[geezer]

...On the other hand, I must say that the link to the story about Aikido's founder, Uyeshiba being able to dodge bullets and use his ki to send the shooters flying into the air was disturbing to me ...Because it was presented as factual.

When impossible, magical acts are presented as facts, I find myself having diminished respect for the people spreading such tales. I hope not all Aikido authorities engage in promoting these kinds of stories as the literal truth!

 

[oftheherd1]

That would be quite a feat, considering the actual anatomy. The heart is too far above the xiphoid for me to buy into this. The xiphoid would have to be broken off from it's normal location and moved vertically behind the sternum. Blunt trauma from sternal compression I can believe. Impact induced R on T phenomenon I can believe. But unless you show me actual pictures from the post, I'm not buying this. Now, a liver lac from the xiphoid is entirely believable and certainly potentially fatal.

I didn't attend the post and can only go with what I was told by the one who did, who was going with what he was told by the pathologist.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn't attend the post and can only go with what I was told by the one who did, who was going with what he was told by the pathologist.

Probably some detail lost in translation and memory.

 

[oftheherd1]

Probably some detail lost in translation and memory.

If you are referring to me, I don't think so. Although as I said, I didn't attend that autopsy, I spoke to the person who did. It has stuck with me simply because as has been pointed out by Dirty Dog, it was very unusual. I don't recall every autopsy I have attended, and probably I haven't attended more than around 30 or so. But some do stand out. Even I didn't attend it, it would of course stand out for its unusualness.

So thanks for the out, but I don't think I need one in this case.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you are referring to me, I don't think so. Although as I said, I didn't attend that autopsy, I spoke to the person who did. It has stuck with me simply because as has been pointed out by Dirty Dog, it was very unusual. I don't recall every autopsy I have attended, and probably I haven't attended more than around 30 or so. But some do stand out. Even I didn't attend it, it would of course stand out for its unusualness.

So thanks for the out, but I don't think I need one in this case.

I was speaking of the person who saw the autopsy, though it's possible there wasn't anything lost. Memories are just highly fickle things, with the possible exception (I haven't seen any studies on this) of when we are in an area of expertise.

 

[Martial D]

Imagine playing the telephone game over 20 generations. A story of one person besting two can and often does end up by looking like one 20 foot tall person besting an army. Information loses integrity when passed down orally.

Ever heard of Paul Bunyon?

 

[punisher73]

if the story is he could dodge bullets, that obviously quite untrue, after that it depends who was shooting at him with what gun,

It would depend on the time of the incident and what kind of gun the japanese were using. If it was old enough, there would be the spark/puff before the bullet was actually fired, which would give you time to move slightly off line before the projectile left the barrel. Also, at the firing range the person "shooting" could be giving off signals such as tightening of the grip and seeing the knuckles whiten, or narrowing of the eyes etc. It would be a high level of skill even then, but it wouldn't be actually "dodging the bullet".

 

[punisher73]

Theoretically, this could happen while running, according to a neighbor. I've run a few thousand miles in my life without it occurring. That's probably similar odds for Uechi-ryu's Sanchin Kitae. If someone has a compromised heart, maybe the odds get worse. The impact needed for this to be a realistic risk is probably more like being tackled head-on.

Every year, there is usually a couple kids who tragically die by getting hit at the right/wrong time in the chest by a line drive and it interupts the heart. No way, that you could actually time it though IMO.

 

[punisher73]

I've got a story about myself that I will give to show how some stories may happen.

I was a school liaison officer for a bit and was responding to a gang fight in the parking lot at dismissal. There is a long set of stairs to get to the parking lot. I ran down there and as I was running deployed my baton since one had pulled a knife. I got lucky and when they saw me, they all scattered and took off to leave and no students were hurt. Anyway a day or two later, my wife used to substitute teach there and was in a class and they were telling her about the incident. The students didn't know we were married and claimed up and down that they SAW ME running and jumping down a whole flight of stairs and while in the air, I pulled out and deployed my baton.

What I think happened, is they saw me running and then looked away to the fight and then when they looked back to me, I had gotten to the bottom of the stairs with the baton in my hand. Their mind filled in the blanks of the missing time frame and they honestly believed that they saw me do that incredible feat. Truth be told, I never corrected them figuring if that was my reputation, it would cut down on other problems. LOL

 

[Seizan]

My brother-in-law Ricky tells this tale about me, which he swears is absolutely true despite my being present when he told it. I tried my best to correct his version. I'm sure it's probably greatly embellished by now, so long after the actual event...

I was teaching a tonfa form to the neighbor’s boy when I was home in 1994 visiting with my sister and her husband. One technique calls for a leap into the air with a 360-degree spin, landing in a defensive position with one tonfa raised to protect the head, and the other aligned to protect the back leg.

I was standing on a slight rise or hillock on the back lawn, and landed (with incorrect placement but safely) in the depressed area in front of the rise and closer to the house. Ricky was watching out the kitchen window. Of course, he had never even seen tonfa before, had no idea they were quite similar to what is used for police batons now, and totally misinterpreted what he saw…

His tale is that I spun the tonfa so fast, I was lifted into the air like a helicopter at least 6 or 7 feet, did a flip, and landed (“light as a feather”) with weapons raised and ready.

Actually, I jumped about a foot or less off the ground; just enough to clear a 360 turn in the air, and landed in the depression facing the house – it may have appeared to Ricky that I was airborne. Frankly, it’s a wonder I didn’t twist an ankle or stumble when I landed. I expected to land on the same spot. Landing forward of my start point and on a lower level lower (about a foot) felt awkward and dangerous. I cautioned the boy to practice on as level a surface as possible.

I explained this all to him, and even tried to duplicate the erroneous feat. He was just more sure that I was either being modest, or hiding my "true Ninja abilities" (I don't practice Ninjutsu, it's karate, for crying out loud!).

I’m not sure about the practicality of the technique, other than to “wow” an audience. I don’t even practice tonfa anymore. I was 23 years (and pounds) younger then.

 

[Langenschwert]

The strike to the heart is detailed in "Ringeck's" manual as a way to soften someone up for grappling. It's certainly effective at times... a friend of mine who did Muay Thai saw a pro match that was finished with it, but whether it was the fight ender or merely started the ball rolling I don't recall. I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one regardless.

 

[Steve]

I've played a fair amount of golf, and I've only ever seen anyone get hit once, and that was after a bounce or two, so about as hard as someone tossing it to you from 20 feet away. I'd guess the deaths on the course are more because (as Jobo pointed out in another thread) there are some out-of-shape, aging folks who play it - moreso than any other sport I can think of. Get those guys out in the sun, walking a bit, and upset over their shots...

Playing a round of golf with my dad (82 years old) . We were out on the course with a guy who must have been 100. He was so old, he was allowed to drive his cart onto the green. He’d get out literally next to his ball, hit it, then get back in the cart. I bet he dies on the golf course. Hell, my dad might, too.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Playing a round of golf with my dad (82 years old) . We were out on the course with a guy who must have been 100. He was so old, he was allowed to drive his cart onto the green. He’d get out literally next to his ball, hit it, then get back in the cart. I bet he dies on the golf course. Hell, my dad might, too.

There are worse ways to die than playing a game you love, that's for certain.
Never "got" the appeal of golf, myself, but different strokes...

 

[Paul_D]

When impossible, magical acts are presented as facts, I find myself having diminished respect for the people spreading such tales.

That must be tricky living in a country where only 13% of the population have no religion?

 

[jobo]

It would depend on the time of the incident and what kind of gun the japanese were using. If it was old enough, there would be the spark/puff before the bullet was actually fired, which would give you time to move slightly off line before the projectile left the barrel. Also, at the firing range the person "shooting" could be giving off signals such as tightening of the grip and seeing the knuckles whiten, or narrowing of the eyes etc. It would be a high level of skill even then, but it wouldn't be actually "dodging the bullet".

as a strategy that would depend on them shooting accurately in the first place, other wise you may just move in to the path of a bullet that would otherwise have missed you

 

[Paul_D]

as a strategy that would depend on them shooting accurately in the first place, other wise you may just move in to the path of a bullet that would otherwise have missed you

You would assume that if you were going to attempt such a demonstration, using an accurate marksman would be pretty high on your checklist.

 

[jobo]

You would assume that if you were going to attempt such a demonstration, using an accurate marksman would be pretty high on your checklist.

it depends how accurate the guns are and every body can miss,

 

[Finlay]

Actually when they got a master marksman to take part in the demo it was called off by Ueshiba himself, at the last minute so the story goes

also i read somewhere that most infantry soldiers miss on purpose the first few times they are required to shoot at a person. in the demonstration case, no matter what other factors are at play you are asking a man to try to kill someone for no reason other than demonstration

 

[dvcochran]

depend when this is supposed to be, with a turn of the last century revolver, you could stand there all day and not get hit, its much the same with our local drugs gangs, when they have one of their intermittent shoot outs, the safest person is the one they are aiming at

I don't want to be the guy trying to prove this practical application. It is much more about situational awareness and avoidance.
The only first hand experience I have with one of the old stories was in 1982. My GM came to the US in 1974. He was performing a demonstration at a public venue during a summer social event. Using another person to tell the story, there was someone on a horse, presumably for example. He did not kill the horse. He did knock the horse down with a kick to the neck bring the rider to the ground. He got in a lot of trouble and spent a night in jail over the encounter. I was told membership went up significantly.

 

[jobo]

I don't want to be the guy trying to prove this practical application. It is much more about situational awareness and avoidance.
The only first hand experience I have with one of the old stories was in 1982. My GM came to the US in 1974. He was performing a demonstration at a public venue during a summer social event. Using another person to tell the story, there was someone on a horse, presumably for example. He did not kill the horse. He did knock the horse down with a kick to the neck bring the rider to the ground. He got in a lot of trouble and spent a night in jail over the encounter. I was told membership went up significantly.

people, well some people are capable of doing quite incredible things, that most of us would consider going impossible, i think knocking a horse over/ out probably counts as possible, if extremely difficult, but you do have to consider the laws of physics/ biology when deciding if some of these " myths" have any credibility at all or if they were just performed by someone with exceptional ability or were just a never to be repeated fluke, grossly exaggerated or just completely made up