Martial myths

[oftheherd1]

I think the ones about people dying after getting punched or kicked in the chest are real.

If you mean the Dem Mak, dying after some number of days, depending of the story heard, maybe not. But I have mentioned before a KATUSA I knew of who was kicked in the sternum with sufficient strength that it drove the xiphoid process into his heart, killing him.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you mean the Dem Mak, dying after some number of days, depending of the story heard, maybe not. But I have mentioned before a KATUSA I knew of who was kicked in the sternum with sufficient strength that it drove the xiphoid process into his heart, killing him.

That would be quite a feat, considering the actual anatomy. The heart is too far above the xiphoid for me to buy into this. The xiphoid would have to be broken off from it's normal location and moved vertically behind the sternum. Blunt trauma from sternal compression I can believe. Impact induced R on T phenomenon I can believe. But unless you show me actual pictures from the post, I'm not buying this. Now, a liver lac from the xiphoid is entirely believable and certainly potentially fatal.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Being able to dodge buller are you crazy i shot and your dead
I dont blieve in everyhting that said about them

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you mean the Dem Mak, dying after some number of days, depending of the story heard, maybe not. But I have mentioned before a KATUSA I knew of who was kicked in the sternum with sufficient strength that it drove the xiphoid process into his heart, killing him.

Not the Democratic Mak. Just a really hard punch or kick in the right area. I'm more likely to believe those legends.

 

[Seizan]

Hi Folks,

Look this up...

Commotio cordis (Latin, "agitation of the heart") is an often lethal disruption of heart rhythm that occurs as a result of a blow to the area directly over the heart (the precordial region), at a critical time during the cycle of a heart beat causing cardiac arrest.

This was discussed extensively on a UechiRyu forum in the past. It is common in modern UechiRyu schools to deliver strong punches to the chest and upper body during Sanchin Kitae, to demonstrate body conditioning. While (to my knowledge) deaths have not been reported because of commotio cordis in UechiRyu classes, it is a bit frightening to think that this has been documented in several sporting activities where a person (especially a younger participant) can be struck in the chest. Beside MA, we are talking baseball, football, basketball, etc.

My dojo does not practice chest-striking for students of any age during Sanchin Kitae.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hi Folks,

Look this up...

Commotio cordis (Latin, "agitation of the heart") is an often lethal disruption of heart rhythm that occurs as a result of a blow to the area directly over the heart (the precordial region), at a critical time during the cycle of a heart beat causing cardiac arrest.

This was discussed extensively on a UechiRyu forum in the past. It is common in modern UechiRyu schools to deliver strong punches to the chest and upper body during Sanchin Kitae, to demonstrate body conditioning. While (to my knowledge) deaths have not been reported because of commotio cordis in UechiRyu classes, it is a bit frightening to think that this has been documented in several sporting activities where a person (especially a younger participant) can be struck in the chest. Beside MA, we are talking baseball, football, basketball, etc.

My dojo does not practice chest-striking for any of the students at any age.

Theoretically, this could happen while running, according to a neighbor. I've run a few thousand miles in my life without it occurring. That's probably similar odds for Uechi-ryu's Sanchin Kitae. If someone has a compromised heart, maybe the odds get worse. The impact needed for this to be a realistic risk is probably more like being tackled head-on.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hi Folks,

Look this up...

Commotio cordis (Latin, "agitation of the heart") is an often lethal disruption of heart rhythm that occurs as a result of a blow to the area directly over the heart (the precordial region), at a critical time during the cycle of a heart beat causing cardiac arrest.

This was discussed extensively on a UechiRyu forum in the past. It is common in modern UechiRyu schools to deliver strong punches to the chest and upper body during Sanchin Kitae, to demonstrate body conditioning. While (to my knowledge) deaths have not been reported because of commotio cordis in UechiRyu classes, it is a bit frightening to think that this has been documented in several sporting activities where a person (especially a younger participant) can be struck in the chest. Beside MA, we are talking baseball, football, basketball, etc.

My dojo does not practice chest-striking for students of any age during Sanchin Kitae.

Right. That's the R on T phenomenon I mentioned. The odds of striking the perfect place at the perfect time are extremely slim. You'd be more likely to win the lottery.

 

[Seizan]

Right. That's the R on T phenomenon I mentioned. The odds of striking the perfect place at the perfect time are extremely slim. You'd be more likely to win the lottery.

True -- a slim chance, but a chance. In the Bruce Lee movie "Return of the Dragon" scene where Bruce fights Chuck Norris, he delivers a series of rapid-fire but rather light punches to Chuck's chest. Those punches weren't meant to hurt, or stun, or amaze... Several kungfu teachers told me that this exponentially increases the likelihood of striking the heart area at exactly the right time. They were meant to deliver a blow at the right time to stop the heart.

It doesn't have to be a heavy blow. If you read the material you can find on Google (look for articles on this from the Mayo Clinic, JAMA, and other more reputable sources) you will find that this occurs most frequently in the younger age group (pre-teens and teens when the torso's muscle layer, sternum, and other protective bone structures are still rather thin) but there are documented occurrences in adults. Even delayed occurrences in which the recipient seems fine, but drops dead 20 or 30 minutes after being struck. Often those strikes were light or moderate in intensity, not heavy, nearly-bone-breaking blows.

Many MA teachers and practitioners disbelieve this simply because chest punches and such strikes have been part of their training and teaching for so long, it would be a major inconvenience to have to eliminate or forbid the technique in their dojo, and so far, no one in their dojo has died from being struck in the chest.

So far...

 

[Seizan]

Death at a tournament caused by commotio cordis:

I'm not entirely sure the practitioner died, as I saw his arm and hand moving toward the end of the clip. Possibly the person who filmed this mentioned that the competitor died after this. It is at least concerning that he collapsed after what seemed to be a rather light blow to the chest, though.

About commotio cordis:

Evolution of our knowledge of sudden death due to commotio cordis. - PubMed - NCBI

More:

http://www.semes.org/revista/vol23_6/11_ing.pdf

Scan down to fig. 2 where you will see the black dots indicating the danger impact zones where vibrations might affect the heart rhytm.

Not to be taken lightly.

Here's the whole thread/discussion (one of a few, I think):

Uechi-Ryu.com • View topic - Commotio-cordis

 

[RTKDCMB]

if the story is he could dodge bullets, that obviously quite untrue, after that it depends who was shooting at him with what gun,

I can dodge bullets; if someone throws them by hand.

 

[Elbowgrease]

I like some of the legends. And I've seen some strange things in the gym. Otherworldly. I know my Sifu could knock a point on my sternum that would leave me crying, and could do it consistently enough to have used it in a fight once. But that's a different thing, and just one thing. Legends are sort of like movies, in my opinion. Can be fun, but what's that got to do with the price of rice? What are you going to do with it?

All that being said, I do like movies, myths, and legends.

 

[JR 137]

Hi Folks,

Look this up...

Commotio cordis (Latin, "agitation of the heart") is an often lethal disruption of heart rhythm that occurs as a result of a blow to the area directly over the heart (the precordial region), at a critical time during the cycle of a heart beat causing cardiac arrest.

This was discussed extensively on a UechiRyu forum in the past. It is common in modern UechiRyu schools to deliver strong punches to the chest and upper body during Sanchin Kitae, to demonstrate body conditioning. While (to my knowledge) deaths have not been reported because of commotio cordis in UechiRyu classes, it is a bit frightening to think that this has been documented in several sporting activities where a person (especially a younger participant) can be struck in the chest. Beside MA, we are talking baseball, football, basketball, etc.

My dojo does not practice chest-striking for students of any age during Sanchin Kitae.

I read a study somewhere a while back that said more people die golfing than during any other sport.

They attributed it to a, relatively speaking of course, high incidence of golfers getting hit in the chest with an errant golf ball, causing cardiac arrest.

That and the speculation that there’s more old golfers than pretty much any other sport. But there was a big concern over people getting hit in the chest. Perhaps the size and velocity of the ball is a factor IMO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I read a study somewhere a while back that said more people die golfing than during any other sport.

They attributed it to a, relatively speaking of course, high incidence of golfers getting hit in the chest with an errant golf ball, causing cardiac arrest.

That and the speculation that there’s more old golfers than pretty much any other sport. But there was a big concern over people getting hit in the chest. Perhaps the size and velocity of the ball is a factor IMO.

I've played a fair amount of golf, and I've only ever seen anyone get hit once, and that was after a bounce or two, so about as hard as someone tossing it to you from 20 feet away. I'd guess the deaths on the course are more because (as Jobo pointed out in another thread) there are some out-of-shape, aging folks who play it - moreso than any other sport I can think of. Get those guys out in the sun, walking a bit, and upset over their shots...

 

[Dirty Dog]

I read a study somewhere a while back that said more people die golfing than during any other sport.

They attributed it to a, relatively speaking of course, high incidence of golfers getting hit in the chest with an errant golf ball, causing cardiac arrest.

That and the speculation that there’s more old golfers than pretty much any other sport. But there was a big concern over people getting hit in the chest. Perhaps the size and velocity of the ball is a factor IMO.

I'd really really really like to see a citation for this...

 

[jobo]

I can dodge bullets; if someone throws them by hand.

possibly, vet you can't dodge them if i fire them by catapult

I read a study somewhere a while back that said more people die golfing than during any other sport.

They attributed it to a, relatively speaking of course, high incidence of golfers getting hit in the chest with an errant golf ball, causing cardiac arrest.

That and the speculation that there’s more old golfers than pretty much any other sport. But there was a big concern over people getting hit in the chest. Perhaps the size and velocity of the ball is a factor IMO.

i think its more like to be death by being bored to death, or a heart attack as they could get a kart to Cary them round

 

[Seizan]

OK, here's another contribution to the myths...

How many have heard the legend of their founder (or some master in their system lineage) who climbed to the roof of his house during a typhoon and held up some wide-surface object against the raging storm to prove or check his stance?

"...He went up to the roof of his thatched-roofed house and held / a tatami mat / a tightly-meshed bamboo gate / a door against the full power of a typhoon because he wanted to test his strength, or the stability of his stance..."

Now, be truthful -- how many young students actually tried to replicate such a feat during a period of strong winds (hurricane?) or stormy weather after hearing such a tale? This could be one of those "Hold my beer and watch this" sort of things that usually end in some injury or worse...

 

[RTKDCMB]

I read a study somewhere a while back that said more people die golfing than during any other sport.

They attributed it to a, relatively speaking of course, high incidence of golfers getting hit in the chest with an errant golf ball, causing cardiac arrest.

That and the speculation that there’s more old golfers than pretty much any other sport. But there was a big concern over people getting hit in the chest. Perhaps the size and velocity of the ball is a factor IMO.

Not to mention getting struck by lightning (I don't know if anyone actually died from it though).

 

[Dirty Dog]

OK, here's another contribution to the myths...

How many have heard the legend of their founder (or some master in their system lineage) who climbed to the roof of his house during a typhoon and held up some wide-surface object against the raging storm to prove or check his stance?

"...He went up to the roof of his thatched-roofed house and held / a tatami mat / a tightly-meshed bamboo gate / a door against the full power of a typhoon because he wanted to test his strength, or the stability of his stance..."

Now, be truthful -- how many young students actually tried to replicate such a feat during a period of strong winds (hurricane?) or stormy weather after hearing such a tale? This could be one of those "Hold my beer and watch this" sort of things that usually end in some injury or worse...

I never did it on the roof, but as a child in southern California, we used to get appliances boxes (a fridge box was best...) and use them as some sort of hang glider when the Santa Anna Winds came to visit every year. Nobody ever got badly hurt, but pretty much everybody ended up with some road rash. It was still fun.

 

[geezer]

I never did it on the roof, but as a child in southern California, we used to get appliances boxes (a fridge box was best...) and use them as some sort of hang glider when the Santa Anna Winds came to visit every year. Nobody ever got badly hurt, but pretty much everybody ended up with some road rash. It was still fun.

We did that too ...as kids during the monsoon dustorms in Phoenix in the late 60s. We'd grab a jacket or raincoat, get on our bikes and spread out our arms to sail on the wind. I remember one time I tried using a big sheet of cardboard from a bicycle box and wiped out. ...a few years later we were all building really crude hang-gliders. Just simple rogallo wings from kits. I took mine over to Torrey Pines one time, before getting into other pastimes ....like MA.

 

[geezer]

As far as martial myths go, In Ving Chun we have the old origin stories of the Shaolin Five Elders, of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, and so forth.

In my school, we discuss them as a matter of tradition, not as factual truth. I view them as as sort of like Aesop's fables, imparting a lesson or "moral" as well as a sense of tradition and respect for "righteous" behavior. For example the stories of Wing Chun and Ng Mui not only express the common wuxia themes of the righteous kung-fu master standing up against oppression and bullying, but also promote the idea that Wing Chun, if taken to the highest level, would allow even an old woman or a teenage girl to fight and win against stronger opponents.