Martial myths

[Finlay]

What do you make of the old stories if masters?
I mean the far out ones, for example:

- the old karate master (forgot his name) who apparently could crush bamboo with his grip

- Morihei Ueshiba, being able to dodge bullets

- Yin Fu being able to crush men's wrists with his thumb and fore finger grip

- Cheng Ting hua being able to circle walk so fast that his hair would fly our behind him.

- Mushashi defeating over 100 men in a single fight

OK not the best examples and there are probably many more stories specific to different styles. However I am.sure you get where I am going.

Are they:

- true, in which case is there anyone alive that could repeat these things

- stories based on a mistaken observation. By this I mean someone saw something that they didn't completely understand and sort of filled in the gaps

- stories born out of one freak incident that became legends

- something that was just made up to make a teacher sound amazing

- any other ideas

Overall. When you hear amazing stories of masters of the past, what do you male of them

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some are exaggerations. Some are outright myths. Some were probably deceptions (I know of one living martial artist who did blindfolded knife defense in Madison Square Gardens many years ago - and roughly how he did it, which had little to do with martial skill). Some may be misinterpretations of what was observed. Some may even be true, though I'll bet it's damnably few.

 

[Danny T]

Exaggerations roughly based on some truth.
Same in every culture and histories.
Look at how today's social media exaggerates stories and others just pass it on as truths. Some are flat out false.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the ones about people dying after getting punched or kicked in the chest are real.

 

[hoshin1600]

The Ueshiba stories about dodging bullets in my opinion is both true but also misunderstood by the public and maybe by Ueshiba himself.
Ueshiba was involved in combat between Japan and China. He told of his experience under fire of seeing white lights, (which to him he thought preceded the bullet) they moved slowly though the air and he felt he could avoid these "white lights" thus not be hit by bullets. To address the public exaggeration he was not dodging bullets from someone standing down range shooting at him, he was in a combat situation where rounds were going all over but in his general direction.
The part I feel is real is that he was seeing the actual round traveling but due to what we now know about high stress and adrenaline, we understand acute vision and time perception(slowing down) are common. He obviously didn't understand the human bodies reaction to combat either and thought it was something special.

 

[jobo]

Exaggerations roughly based on some truth.
Same in every culture and histories.
Look at how today's social media exaggerates stories and others just pass it on as truths. Some are flat out false.

in 500 years, somepne will be asking are the chuck Norris story's supposed to be true!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the ones about people dying after getting punched or kicked in the chest are real.

Surely at least some are. The issue is that it's also nearly certain that a portion of those (a few, half, most? - who knows?) are mere coincidence (my best friend died of a burst aorta just after a demonstration - doctor said the activity had nothing to do with it) or an undetected frailty (weak heart, probably stressed more by the altercation than the physical blow). We will never know, but we do know the propensity for people to assign cause based upon coincidence. And once something like that has happened, the rumor mill cranks up and it gets exaggerated.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

in 500 years, somepne will be asking are the chuck Norris story's supposed to be true!

Yeah, but at least they'll still be able to ask Chuck.

 

[Finlay]

The Ueshiba stories about dodging bullets in my opinion is both true but also misunderstood by the public and maybe by Ueshiba himself.
Ueshiba was involved in combat between Japan and China. He told of his experience under fire of seeing white lights, (which to him he thought preceded the bullet) they moved slowly though the air and he felt he could avoid these "white lights" thus not be hit by bullets. To address the public exaggeration he was not dodging bullets from someone standing down range shooting at him, he was in a combat situation where rounds were going all over but in his general direction.
The part I feel is real is that he was seeing the actual round traveling but due to what we now know about high stress and adrenaline, we understand acute vision and time perception(slowing down) are common. He obviously didn't understand the human bodies reaction to combat either and thought it was something special.

I believe the story I read Ueshiba was in fact on a range with a person shooting directly at him.

The is reported by Gozo Shioda whow was there at the time.

I'll try to find the reference and post a link

 

[jobo]

I believe the story I read Ueshiba was in fact on a range with a person shooting directly at him.

The is reported by Gozo Shioda whow was there at the time.

I'll try to find the reference and post a link

if the story is he could dodge bullets, that obviously quite untrue, after that it depends who was shooting at him with what gun,

 

[hoshin1600]

I believe the story I read Ueshiba was in fact on a range with a person shooting directly at him.

The is reported by Gozo Shioda whow was there at the time.

I'll try to find the reference and post a link

the example i gave was paraphrased from his words in one of his books.

 

[Finlay]

if the story is he could dodge bullets, that obviously quite untrue, after that it depends who was shooting at him with what gun,

Very good point

Here is the story as written but Shioda

Seems who was shooting did in fact make a difference

The Aikido FAQ: Avoiding the concentrated fire of revolvers

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe the story I read Ueshiba was in fact on a range with a person shooting directly at him.

The is reported by Gozo Shioda whow was there at the time.

I'll try to find the reference and post a link

If that is the case, I don't believe a word of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if the story is he could dodge bullets, that obviously quite untrue, after that it depends who was shooting at him with what gun,

The story is supposed to be that he could sense where the shots would go - not so much dodging the bullet as dodging the aim point. Similarly impossible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the example i gave was paraphrased from his words in one of his books.

I think Tohei included that same story in his, if I'm remembering the source correctly.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What do you make of the old stories if masters?

I don't try to make anything of them. They are old stories, and often entertaining, and that's all I think of them.

 

[Danny T]

in 500 years, somepne will be asking are the chuck Norris story's supposed to be true!

Chuck who?

LOL...I've had people in the present asking if the stories are real.

 

[jobo]

The story is supposed to be that he could sense where the shots would go - not so much dodging the bullet as dodging the aim point. Similarly impossible.

depend when this is supposed to be, with a turn of the last century revolver, you could stand there all day and not get hit, its much the same with our local drugs gangs, when they have one of their intermittent shoot outs, the safest person is the one they are aiming at

 

[Gerry Seymour]

depend when this is supposed to be, with a turn of the last century revolver, you could stand there all day and not get hit, its much the same with our local drugs gangs, when they have one of their intermittent shoot outs, the safest person is the one they are aiming at

Surely true for some, but there were some revolvers known for accuracy - though what was renowned then probably wasn't as good as reasonable production firearms today.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

Are they:

- true, in which case is there anyone alive that could repeat these things

- stories based on a mistaken observation. By this I mean someone saw something that they didn't completely understand and sort of filled in the gaps

- stories born out of one freak incident that became legends

- something that was just made up to make a teacher sound amazing

- any other ideas

...

Yes.