Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[Buka]

Martial Arts shouldn't take years to learn. I'm from the government and I'm here to help. The check is in the mail. It's only a cold sore. Don't go swimming after you eat. The world is full of wise young men.

Just call me Aesop. Or A-hole, that will work, too.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yeah.

Honestly, when people spend all their time thinking about fighting and how they need to prepare themselves for the possibility of being attacked, my paranoia sniffer starts to ping.

Sure, the need for self defense is a genuine possibility, and skills to handle that ought to be part and parcel of martial training.

However, it definitely does not need to be obsessively on your mind all the time, and can certainly take a distant third or fourth or fifth place on the list of reasons why one likes to train.

Cans and cans of food and no can opener. I've seen it.

 

[hoshin1600]

As an atheist and a rationalist

ok your a rationalist..ill give you some rational.

I get irritated when innocent people get duped by some of the traditional nonsense.

how about when the un-experienced get duped into a philosophical narrative by modern nonsense????

I see no reason to put a martial art on a pedestal.

i see no reason to put Krav or Jeet Kun Do or anything else on a pedestal even if it is modern or appears simple.

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts

this phenomenon is not unique to asian martial arts. its part of the human condition. its the way the human brain works.
https://blog.bufferapp.com/lessons-...actice-from-moz...art-picasso-and-kobe-bryant

"How long does it take to become elite at your craft?......That’s what John Hayes, a cognitive psychology professor at Carnegie Mellon University, wanted to know.
Hayes started his research by examining successful composers....Hayes mapped out the timeline of each composer’s career and calculated how long they had been working before they created their popular works. What he discovered was that virtually every single “masterwork” was written after year ten of the composer’s career. (Out of 500 pieces there were only three exceptions, which were written in years eight and nine.)"

Study after study shows that it takes about 10 years to become fully competent at any skill or craft.

how long does it take to be competent at Muay Thai????
Muay Thai Kru: What is means to be Kru

"There are five instructor levels within the World Thai Boxing Association (starting with the most senior):"

1. Ajarn – 25+ years of active teaching
2. Senior Instructor – 20+ years of active teaching
3. Kru – Full Instructor – 12 years of active teaching
4. Kru – Associate Instructor – 6 years of active teaching
5. Kru – Apprentice Instructor (Student Level III) – 3 years of active teaching

So to become an instructor (meaning your competent at the craft) takes 12 years.

there are four stages to competence.
"The Four Stages of Learning provides a model for learning. It suggests that individuals are initially unaware of how little they know, "
Four stages of competence - Wikipedia

Perhaps you are at the beginning stage?




Combat competence is primarily a function of the brain. the mistake made by many people is that they compare combative sport to actual combat. because of the way the brain functions the reptilian part of the brain (the Limbic system) is not engaged while doing sport martial arts. to know and remember martial art skills in the prefrontal cortex and to have that show up during actual combat is not the same thing.
"the limbic system can independently respond to the world, like when we react to threatening situations. This occurs at the subconscious level, when the amygdala—the fear and anxiety response center—compares data from the world with the hippocampus, which is the memory database of experiences. If the incoming information corresponds to a threat that has been tagged as negative or dangerous, the amygdala immediately commands the body into action."
What Combat Leaders Need to Know About Neuroscience - The Military Leader


it takes more time to "hard wire" your martial art learned responses so that they are usable during an actual threat. the Limbic system will want to override all normal brain function and it takes a lot of practice and experience to get the prefrontal cortex involved.

When the limbic system is heavily engaged, as it is during the high threat stress of combat, it will quite literally steal fuel from the prefrontal cortex, thus handicapping a leader’s ability to combat the situation with cognition.


i would suggest your superficial learning that takes a short amount of time is no more useful for actual fighting as reading a book.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition

your post shows your opinion is that because the training methodology of traditional karate takes longer than a few months, it is somehow a bad thing.
clearly you have no understanding of the culture of the Okinawan and Japanese martial arts. what makes you think it is supposed to be fast??
the training methodology of karate from the Okinawan perspective is SUPPOSED to take time.
i would propose you have no understanding of the karate traditions and culture. one of the top objectives in a martial tradition is continuation. similar to the continuation of a species the evolutionary continuation of a martial tradition is its number one priority. it is not an evolutionary advantage to teach just the superficial, and pass on less than complete understanding of the art. to do so would mean certain death to the art within 2 generations. so certain cultural protocols have been ingrained into the styles and systems. these protocols are so imbeded that most people do not see them for what they are, a method to restrict propagation of the art to those who posses the highest likelyhood of passing the complete art to another generation in its entirety.
the idea of quick learning is completely counter productive to the evolutionary continuation of the art.

some protocols

1. restriction of admission. we dont want undesirable people learning the art
2. restriction of knowledge. in the beginning there was often a test of the students resolve and commitment
3. restriction of acknowledged competence. only selected individuals were given the status as teacher and full competency

that being said i will admit that here in 2017 the arts have had a side effect in the evolutionary progression that is exactly because of the break down of the continuation protocol. American students who do not posses the entire scope of understanding and perhaps curriculum. if someone grants themselves 11th degree grand poobah rank,, what happens is the smaller curriculum get stretched out and passed off as complete. then the next generation does the same thing and slowly the body of knowledge shrinks. this is one reason things may actually take longer then really necessary.
another is that the American students want instant gratification and in an effort to please them (like a child) the instructors would expand the original curriculum so that the American student was constantly learning something he thought was new but was in fact a rehashed lesson or concept that was just presented in a different way.

it seems like a waste of time to me.

fine ... no one is saying your not allowed to have an opinion.
however you are not the martial art police and you are not qualified to make any kind of determination of that sort.

the issue seems to be that you equate a given length of time to the level of competence or in this case incompetence. your assumption that a longer time means the student is getting ripped off somehow is totally a lack of understanding on your part. if someone was looking for self defense in a short amount of time they would buy a gun. in fact if the goal was 100 % about the ability and competency of self defense then you would not study martial arts at all!!!! you would purchase a fire arm and be done with it.

so there is your rationale ... go buy a gun.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

To be a good fighter, you have to have the following tools in your toolbox:

1. 10 different kind of punches - jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, hay-maker, palm strike, ...
2. 20 different kind of kicks - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, side kick, crescent kick, back kick, jump kick, jump spin kick, ...
3. 40 different kind of locks - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spin lock, ankle lock, ...
4. 250 different kind of throws - hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg twist, leg lift, leg break, spring, cut, inner hook, outer hook, scooping kick, shoulder throw, ... (The throwing art by itself will take your life time to master it).
5. N different kind of ground skills - side mount, full mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...

You still have to add the following skills into your tool box:

How to

- counter those tools.
- counter those counters.
- set up the 1st tool.
- use 1 tool to set up the other tool.
- ...

So far, the "weapon" training has not included yet. IMO, even one life time is not enough to fill your toolbox "completely".

 

[Charlemagne]

double post...

 

[Charlemagne]

If you are devoting 2-3 hours a day, as people did in times past, then it won't take a decade to master the art. Joe Lewis got his Black Belt in a year, but he so by training 8 hours a day. Those guys you are referring to who become MT fighters in a relatively short time do so by training multiple hours a day.

Can people who have never picked up a golf club in the past become a scratch golfer by only practicing golf 3-4 hours a week for a couple of years? Of course not. Why would one expect to be an accomplished martial artist by doing the same thing?

The bottom line is that, if you are like the average person, who can only devote a couple of nights a week to training and maybe an hour or two over the weekend, then any martial art that is actually worth learning is going to take a long time for you to do so.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you are devoting 2-3 hours a day, as people did in times past, then it won't take a decade to master the art. Joe Lewis got his Black Belt in a year, but he so by training 8 hours a day. Those guys you are referring to who become MT fighters in a relatively short time do so by training multiple hours a day.

Can people who have never picked up a golf club in the past become a scratch golfer by only practicing golf 3-4 hours a week for a couple of years? Of course not. Why would one expect to be an accomplished martial artist by doing the same thing?

The bottom line is that, if you are like the average person, who can only devote a couple of nights a week to training and maybe an hour or two over the weekend, then any martial art that is actually worth learning is going to take a long time for you to do so.

A good example of this is the 12-week program @drop bear 's gym (for clarity: not his, where he trains) does. The time put in would be similar to what an average hobbyist student would put in over nearly 2 years, all compressed. And that compression has some benefits (the fitness commitment for that time has a lot more benefit than if spread out over those 2 years, for instance). So, I'd consider it similar to 2-3 years of hobbyist training. And that's to get to the first fight. It's a great program, from the way I've heard it described, and the folks going through it show a lot of guts. I'd say folks who go through it are probably a different breed, from a commitment standpoint. And it takes them that many hours to go from novice to fighter.

 

[Buka]

All of my instructors have said "It takes about ten years to learn how to fight." So, I'm going with that.

But, alas, if that's indeed true, I'm on a really slow learning curve. Good thing I packed a lunch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

However outside of a competition without judges and rules, there has to be a system that is simple to execute. When someone discovers that I'm game. Krav Maga and Jeet Kune Do seem like the most progressive styles that I have seen.

There's nothing terribly unique about those systems. We normally refer to them here as martial arts, just as we refer to boxing and wrestling as martial arts. Some are simpler than others. Some market themselves on simplicity, and others don't. There's little I've seen in Krav Maga that doesn't exist similarly in arts I've been exposed to. The concept of Jeet Kune Do isn't unique to Jeet Kune Do - many of us (even in TMA) have a similar attitude of not being constrained by a system, finding what works and using that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To be a good fighter, you have to have the following tools in your toolbox:

1. 10 different kind of punches - jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, hay-maker, palm strike, ...
2. 20 different kind of kicks - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, side kick, crescent kick, back kick, jump kick, jump spin kick, ...
3. 40 different kind of locks - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spin lock, ankle lock, ...
4. 250 different kind of throws - hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg twist, leg lift, leg break, spring, cut, inner hook, outer hook, scooping kick, shoulder throw, ... (The throwing art by itself will take your life time to master it).
5. N different kind of ground skills - side mount, full mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...

You still have to add the following skills into your tool box:

How to

- counter those tools.
- counter those counters.
- set up the 1st tool.
- use 1 tool to set up the other tool.
- ...

So far, the "weapon" training has not included yet. IMO, even one life time is not enough to fill your toolbox "completely".

That's far more different kinds of things that I'd ever consider learnable to competence for most of us, much less necessary.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's far more different kinds of things that I'd ever consider learnable to competence for most of us, much less necessary.

I have not even included the "basic training" yet.

 

[jobo]

To be a good fighter, you have to have the following tools in your toolbox:

1. 10 different kind of punches - jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, hay-maker, palm strike, ...
2. 20 different kind of kicks - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, side kick, crescent kick, back kick, jump kick, jump spin kick, ...
3. 40 different kind of locks - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spin lock, ankle lock, ...
4. 250 different kind of throws - hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg twist, leg lift, leg break, spring, cut, inner hook, outer hook, scooping kick, shoulder throw, ... (The throwing art by itself will take your life time to master it).
5. N different kind of ground skills - side mount, full mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...

You still have to add the following skills into your tool box:

How to

- counter those tools.
- counter those counters.
- set up the 1st tool.
- use 1 tool to set up the other tool.
- ...

So far, the "weapon" training has not included yet. IMO, even one life time is not enough to fill your toolbox "completely".

that's somewhat over the top, a few punches a few kicks and a few throws/ locks are all that are needed, with of,course the physical abilities to make them work.

we are back to the dilemma, the op identified, to be a " good" fighter, takes not a great time, and the comparative mastery of,only a few skills,are needed,

to master an entire ma, i's another proposition entirely

 

[paitingman]

For me, TKD and other traditional karate styles are very much small-margin-of-error approaches to fighting.
It is a bag of very high precision tools, that take skills and experience to use properly.
Alternatively you may use simpler tools and take a more robust approach to it (and achieve great results as well)
It's like I think WSL said about Wing Chun : "VT(in my case TKD) is a good horse than few people can ride" something like that.

These techniques for me require extreme focus and discipline. If you cannot maintain a Zen-esque composure you will find it difficult to use these precise skills. Years of intense training can bring this out.
Or you can do like some and just dive into an art and learn it's techniques, master them even, and have a blast dedicating yourself to it and not develop this "fighting calm" because you do not need it and the fighting holds little interest to you. This is also a very worthwhile path

 

[jobo]

If you are devoting 2-3 hours a day, as people did in times past, then it won't take a decade to master the art. Joe Lewis got his Black Belt in a year, but he so by training 8 hours a day. Those guys you are referring to who become MT fighters in a relatively short time do so by training multiple hours a day.

Can people who have never picked up a golf club in the past become a scratch golfer by only practicing golf 3-4 hours a week for a couple of years? Of course not. Why would one expect to be an accomplished martial artist by doing the same thing?

The bottom line is that, if you are like the average person, who can only devote a couple of nights a week to training and maybe an hour or two over the weekend, then any martial art that is actually worth learning is going to take a long time for you to do so.

well possibly so, on the golf front, if they ate a good athelete in another ball sports they all ready have much of the abilities they need for golf, they just have to refine them,

 

[paitingman]

For me, TKD and other traditional karate styles are very much small-margin-of-error approaches to fighting.
It is a bag of very high precision tools, that take skills and experience to use properly.
Alternatively you may use simpler tools and take a more robust approach to it (and achieve great results as well)
It's like I think WSL said about Wing Chun : "VT(in my case TKD) is a good horse than few people can ride" something like that.

These techniques for me require extreme focus and discipline. If you cannot maintain a Zen-esque composure you will find it difficult to use these precise skills. Years of intense training can bring this out.
Or you can do like some and just dive into an art and learn it's techniques, master them even, and have a blast dedicating yourself to it and not develop this "fighting calm" because you do not need it and the fighting holds little interest to you. This is also a very worthwhile path

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well possibly so, on the golf front, if they ate a good athelete in another ball sports they all ready have much of the abilities they need for golf, they just have to refine them,

I know what you meant, Jobo, but the unintentional cannibalism reference is pretty funny - reminds me of a scene from the play On the Verge. A cannibal in the play takes on the characteristics of the person he eats.

 

[jobo]

I know what you meant, Jobo, but the unintentional cannibalism reference is pretty funny - reminds me of a scene from the play On the Verge. A cannibal in the play takes on the characteristics of the person he eats.

yes, should have proof read that

 

[drop bear]

That last part is key - I firmly believe most martial arts contain stuff for people like me, so we can continue to train after we reach some reasonable competency with the core techniques. After that point, especially as I age, I need something to chew on and dig deeper into. I think there's a very slight improvement (if any) in my ability to defend myself when I get better at some of these things, but they are fun to learn, and they keep me active in my training. So, the real "fight prep" value of them is that they keep me coming back, so I don't get rusty. Wait, I think I just argued myself into disagreeing. Damnit!

There is definitely that. And there is again this issue of unrealistic feedback in training.

A lot of what works at half pace and power don't work as well at full pace.

The same way a jittser can be caught by a new person who is a spaz. So can a lot of stylists if they have focused on the wrong elements.

I am helping out the boxers train for comps at the moment and they like to spar pretty much flat knacker. And at that pace I can't really see punches coming in time to react to them.

This is a massive shift a fighting methodology.

 

[Flying Crane]

To be a good fighter, you have to have the following tools in your toolbox:

1. 10 different kind of punches - jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, hay-maker, palm strike, ...
2. 20 different kind of kicks - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, side kick, crescent kick, back kick, jump kick, jump spin kick, ...
3. 40 different kind of locks - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spin lock, ankle lock, ...
4. 250 different kind of throws - hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg twist, leg lift, leg break, spring, cut, inner hook, outer hook, scooping kick, shoulder throw, ... (The throwing art by itself will take your life time to master it).
5. N different kind of ground skills - side mount, full mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...

You still have to add the following skills into your tool box:

How to

- counter those tools.
- counter those counters.
- set up the 1st tool.
- use 1 tool to set up the other tool.
- ...

So far, the "weapon" training has not included yet. IMO, even one life time is not enough to fill your toolbox "completely".

You are joking, yes?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are joking, yes?

I'm not joking. If you don't train any of those tools, how do you know how to counter it?