Martial Arts, genetics and talent vs. work ethic

[Gerry Seymour]

Athleticism is part of martial arts training though. Same as technique.

Agreed. People have a "natural" (perhaps "habitual") level of athleticism. The higher that is, the more easily they will learn MA, and the further they can get without great technique. Hard work can raise you above that natural level, but it's easier if you start part way up that ladder.

 

[Danny T]

Most people don't enjoy grappling until they start seeing results.

It is like a diet.

Maybe...About half who come in with us want grappling the half want striking.
I teach our CSW classes and find it's more about making sure the beginners are really enjoying themselves, work on some fundamentals, core strength and flexibility with proper exercises and drilling while gaining some understanding of what to do and what not to do before really grinding them. When rolling beginners roll only with other beginners or much higher level grapplers who have excellent control. Then we begin the grind and yes so does the suck. In our BJJ classes the suck begins almost from the start... Our CSW classes are almost twice as large as our BJJ

When it comes to diet. I don't think one should go on a diet.
What you eat 'is' your diet and is a part of your lifestyle. If one wants to change their diet to something one is aware of, eat in moderation, keep it well balanced and don't overeat you won't need to go on a diet.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. People have a "natural" (perhaps "habitual") level of athleticism. The higher that is, the more easily they will learn MA, and the further they can get without great technique. Hard work can raise you above that natural level, but it's easier if you start part way up that ladder.

You realise athleticism is also a byproduct of hard work though?

 

[drop bear]

Maybe...About half who come in with us want grappling the half want striking.
I teach our CSW classes and find it's more about making sure the beginners are really enjoying themselves, work on some fundamentals, core strength and flexibility with proper exercises and drilling while gaining some understanding of what to do and what not to do before really grinding them. When rolling beginners roll only with other
beginners or much higher level grapplers who have excellent control. Then we begin the grind and yes so does the suck. In our BJJ classes the suck begins almost from the start... Our CSW classes are almost twice as large as our BJJ

When it comes to diet. I don't think one should go on a diet.
What you eat 'is' your diet and is a part of your lifestyle. If one wants to change their diet to something one is aware of, eat in moderation, keep it well balanced and don't overeat you won't need to go on a diet.

More people are going to go for the easy option if given a choice. That is a natural human reaction. I just like people to know that there won't always be fun times in training if they are working towards something.

You can call a diet whatever you want. But if you are eating less of the foods you like it is going to hurt. There is no getting around it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You realise athleticism is also a byproduct of hard work though?

Yes. The way I see it, people start with a baseline. Work can raise them above that baseline - the harder (and better) the work, the higher above it they move. A naturally (genetically) gifted athlete starts with a high baseline, so their hard work gets them much higher than someone who works the same amount, and starts with a lower baseline.

 

[Steve]

Yes. The way I see it, people start with a baseline. Work can raise them above that baseline - the harder (and better) the work, the higher above it they move. A naturally (genetically) gifted athlete starts with a high baseline, so their hard work gets them much higher than someone who works the same amount, and starts with a lower baseline.

A little late to the conversation.

I think this is a great point. There's a functional band, that's a product of genetics, hard work, time, and age. Sometimes, people can overcome one of these, by focusing on the other three, but even that's very rare. What I mean is, someone who is not genetically gifted can, through hard work, a lot of dedicated time training, and starting very young, overcome their lack of natural talent. similarly, someone who is genetically blessed can overcome starting at a later age by logging training hours and working really hard.

 

[Buka]

OK, but that aside, what about the other part of my post. Do people who lack talent weed themselves out over time?

I think a good deal of them do. Probably in any endeavor.

 

[Steve]

I think a good deal of them do. Probably in any endeavor.

Agreed in that people generally gravitate to things for which they have aptitude.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed in that people generally gravitate to things for which they have aptitude.

A more concise way of saying what I tried to say earlier.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed in that people generally gravitate to things for which they have aptitude.

Does anyone come to a jits class and not get manhandled?

It is a whole martial art where everyone just sucked at it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does anyone come to a jits class and not get manhandled?

It is a whole martial art where everyone just sucked at it.

Not the same thing in my mind. Let’s use soccer/football as an example. Very few people are really any good at it the first time they kick the ball. But sucking comes in degrees. People who have trouble kicking (miss the ball a lot) tend to quit. People who can kick it, and maybe manage to dribble a few steps right away are far more likely to stick around long enough to get good.

Same thing for most folks in jits.

 

[drop bear]

Not the same thing in my mind. Let’s use soccer/football as an example. Very few people are really any good at it the first time they kick the ball. But sucking comes in degrees. People who have trouble kicking (miss the ball a lot) tend to quit. People who can kick it, and maybe manage to dribble a few steps right away are far more likely to stick around long enough to get good.

Same thing for most folks in jits.

Lets use jits as an example. People come to jits and get flogged. Big guys, small guys athletic. It pretty much doesn't matter. Nobody comes in and is good at it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To reach the very top of the heap in just about any endeavor (Olympic gold medalist, UFC champion, etc) you need just about everything going for you - natural ability, insane work ethic, starting young, first-rate coaching, and a bit of luck. Most of us will never come anywhere close to that.

The good news is that you can still get very, very good at something and get lots of practical benefit from it without being one of the best in the entire world. The vast majority of martial artists will never reach even 50% of what they are genetically capable of, so there's not much point in worrying about how much your natural ability might be holding you back. You can always get better. You just have to look at how much a given amount of progress is worth to you in terms of time and energy and decide how much you want to invest in your training versus using in some other area of your life.

I am myself on the low end of the bell curve in terms of natural ability for the martial arts. I started out uncoordinated, out of shape, inflexible, non-aggressive, and shy of physical contact. After 37 years of training, I'm an above average martial artist and instructor. I've seen lots of people come in to training along the way who were way more talented than I am. They started out better and progressed faster. Most of them dropped out along the way. I kept going and kept progressing. If I put more daily time and work into my training, I would progress faster. I don't think I have the capacity to become a world champion at this point, even if I trained as hard as I could, but that's okay. There's lots to achieve without going that far.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lets use jits as an example. People come to jits and get flogged. Big guys, small guys athletic. It pretty much doesn't matter. Nobody comes in and is good at it.

Yes, but they are getting flogged by people who are better than them, mostly by experience. That's the same as soccer. My first day, I was probably the second worst person on the field. The worst didn't play a second season. That's fairly common, and I see the same in MA - I assume jits isn't the exception to that rule. People can usually tell whether they suck because they don't know how yet, or they simply suck because it's them. People often like getting good as much as they like being good. If they expect to continue to suck, they get neither of those.

 

[mrt2]

To reach the very top of the heap in just about any endeavor (Olympic gold medalist, UFC champion, etc) you need just about everything going for you - natural ability, insane work ethic, starting young, first-rate coaching, and a bit of luck. Most of us will never come anywhere close to that.

The good news is that you can still get very, very good at something and get lots of practical benefit from it without being one of the best in the entire world. The vast majority of martial artists will never reach even 50% of what they are genetically capable of, so there's not much point in worrying about how much your natural ability might be holding you back. You can always get better. You just have to look at how much a given amount of progress is worth to you in terms of time and energy and decide how much you want to invest in your training versus using in some other area of your life.

I am myself on the low end of the bell curve in terms of natural ability for the martial arts. I started out uncoordinated, out of shape, inflexible, non-aggressive, and shy of physical contact. After 37 years of training, I'm an above average martial artist and instructor. I've seen lots of people come in to training along the way who were way more talented than I am. They started out better and progressed faster. Most of them dropped out along the way. I kept going and kept progressing. If I put more daily time and work into my training, I would progress faster. I don't think I have the capacity to become a world champion at this point, even if I trained as hard as I could, but that's okay. There's lots to achieve without going that far.

This is a good point. I guess when I started this thread, I was thinking about a handful of people I knew from my previous practice that started off as rock stars and continued on an upward trajectory. A guy who literally started the same day as me in 1979 is now a 7th degree black belt, and obviously a master. And, he was winning tournaments almost from day one. There is a guy who had natural talent and did the most with it.

Like you, I would not consider myself naturally gifted. I was never a great fighter, but my past practice, I did get over my natural aversion to physical contact. As for my current practice, I am only a month in, so it is hard to say. Muscle memory is a wonderful thing. Before I started back to training, I wasn't sure if I would pull a hamstring or groin trying to throw my first kick, fall on my *** due to lack of coordination, kick wildly off target, or find myself unable to train for weeks after my first class. Fortunately, none of those things happened and as I shake the rust off, I can feel some semblance of my former self emerging. That said, there are things I have trouble doing. Jumps, and any moves that involve going to the floor and getting up quickly are things I really will need to work on, and maybe lose a lot of weight to do. And finally, I haven't done any sparring yet, so it remains to be seen how my body reacts to getting hit.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I guess when I started this thread, I was thinking about a handful of people I knew from my previous practice that started off as rock stars and continued on an upward trajectory. A guy who literally started the same day as me in 1979 is now a 7th degree black belt, and obviously a master. And, he was winning tournaments almost from day one. There is a guy who had natural talent and did the most with it.

Yeah, folks like that can be impressive. But for every one natural talent who performs like that, there are a hundred more with equal talent who don't stick with it or put in the effort to make the use of their gifts.

Often that's just a matter of personal priorities. I'm untalented physically, but I am naturally quite gifted in math. Standardized testing put me in the top .1% of the population and my experience with classes in college (calculus, linear algebra, differential equations) supported that. However I didn't have any particular love for the field, so I didn't stick with it. I got A's in my classes, but I couldn't do anything with calculus now unless I spent some serious time getting myself back up to speed. TLDR - I am far more accomplished in a field I naturally suck at (martial arts) than in a field I'm naturally really good at (math).

 

[AngryHobbit]

To reach the very top of the heap in just about any endeavor (Olympic gold medalist, UFC champion, etc) you need just about everything going for you - natural ability, insane work ethic, starting young, first-rate coaching, and a bit of luck. Most of us will never come anywhere close to that.

The good news is that you can still get very, very good at something and get lots of practical benefit from it without being one of the best in the entire world. The vast majority of martial artists will never reach even 50% of what they are genetically capable of, so there's not much point in worrying about how much your natural ability might be holding you back. You can always get better. You just have to look at how much a given amount of progress is worth to you in terms of time and energy and decide how much you want to invest in your training versus using in some other area of your life.

I am myself on the low end of the bell curve in terms of natural ability for the martial arts. I started out uncoordinated, out of shape, inflexible, non-aggressive, and shy of physical contact. After 37 years of training, I'm an above average martial artist and instructor. I've seen lots of people come in to training along the way who were way more talented than I am. They started out better and progressed faster. Most of them dropped out along the way. I kept going and kept progressing. If I put more daily time and work into my training, I would progress faster. I don't think I have the capacity to become a world champion at this point, even if I trained as hard as I could, but that's okay. There's lots to achieve without going that far.

I was just going to say - doesn't it also matter what one's purpose is? To be an Olympic competitor? To be able to kick above his or her own head? Or to be able to surprise a back alley mugger? All different goals, all variously dependent on one's natural athleticism, genetics, and training.

I am five feet even (that's not "short" - it's "gravitationally superior"), with bad hips, bad back, some arthritis in both knees, multiple concussions, and a messed up spine. What I can achieve with training is limited - because some kinds of training are so unbearably painful to me they lose all effectiveness. However, I can compile my own training program, where I can become effective and proficient. I will never be an Olympic competitor - that's ok. I will never be able to kick anyone in the head, because the amount of pain that will cause to me will knock me out - which sort of defeats the purpose of kicking my opponent. But can I get to a point where I am an effective self-defender? By all means. Very reachable despite my limitations. And, possibly, better than other people BECAUSE of my limitations.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but they are getting flogged by people who are better than them, mostly by experience. That's the same as soccer. My first day, I was probably the second worst person on the field. The worst didn't play a second season. That's fairly common, and I see the same in MA - I assume jits isn't the exception to that rule. People can usually tell whether they suck because they don't know how yet, or they simply suck because it's them. People often like getting good as much as they like being good. If they expect to continue to suck, they get neither of those.

I have done martial arts where on the first day everything works.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I have done martial arts where on the first day everything works.

Good for you! Enjoy being an exception from the general rule.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have done martial arts where on the first day everything works.

That’s one I haven’t seen. Unless you’re talking about very low resistance/no resistance drills at the start. But some folks can’t even do those.