Martial Arts for Law Enforcement...

[jks9199]

So... why don't cops train? What are the things preventing or interfering with individual training? Do some agencies discourage outside training, and if so, why might they? What keeps an agency from having regular, on-going practice and training?

 

[JowGaWolf]

The issue is budget & manning. Most dept. don't have the budget & time.

I'll see what I can do to create a program if you are willing to share some of the challenges that police officers have. Like things you hate to deal with or things you are uncomfortable dealing with. For example, things that police officer may not be the best team to handle. Or things where the police may better serve as backup support.

I originally responded with a book long post but deleted it all. I can't make any promises because I'm already stretched really thin. But I have a website where something like this will fit within my Community Support Program. If I were to sell police training, that's how I would sell it as. I would sell it as a community support program for law enforcement. I wouldn't want to sell it training on how to arrest someone. People talk about bridging the gap between police and the community which to me is crazy. I think that's the wrong way to think. Policing should be a part of the community and not something that is done to the community.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

Thanks for the question. I would refer you to post #8 (the video) & #18. in this thread. Also time. Most cops are drained mentally after work and work strange hours. It's like the military of fire/EMS, it should come from the dept. LE is strange. We ask the world but the training after the academy & FTEP is low.

I train my agency bi-yearly and an outside agency. My Capt. authorized it or they would not get training. my Capt, is cool like that. Many small dept. not get anything. No money. I also give private lessons for one or to local LEO's on my own time (free) or they would not get it. I started my channel to help them as a basic reference. I train MMA & BJJ on my own time but that is on my dollar not my dept.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Many politicians and citizens theorize that it cheaper to pay for the occasional law suit than to pay for additional training and the occasional law suit. People who actually value the lives of their law enforcement officers and the citizens they serve place a higher dollar value on lives, while politicians just look at numbers and sound bytes.

Which is why now is the best time. Where politicians can clearly see the cost of going with the "cheaper" occasional law suit. Nothing is more expensive than repairing one's image. That much they understand loud and clearly without having numbers. I used have to deal with city council members from time to get budgets approved. I never had a budget rejected even when my supervisor weren't excited about it. I know what makes them tick. Most politicians want to know 2 things. Is it going to boost their image or is it going to backfire on them. Cost isn't as much of an issue so long as program works and you can make some numbers and pretty charts to show that it works.

They like the sound of "I did this" or "During my time, I approved of community program A.. which resulted in"

 

[JowGaWolf]

thanks...
you are right. it is often cheaper to pay out of court than fight the case in court. Most agencies, counties, city's, etc. have a magic number that they are willing to pay to keep the case out of court.

Those days are gone. The majority of citizens no longer accept that. Citizens are realizing their rights. Sites like Facebook, youtube, and phone cameras have changed that forever.
As more people have cameras there will be more video of police misconduct. Police department are losing the ability to keep things on the low by keeping it out of courts. If I'm abused by a police officer and someone captures it on video, then I already know that not only can I get more than that "magic number" you speak of, I also know I can push for criminal charges against the officer so long as I didn't commit a crime. I also know I can push my experience to the public and I can affect how the local citizens feel about their police department.

Today's environment is hot. NASCAR BANS THE confederate flag, Mississippi voted to remove the confederate flag from the state flag, statues are being torn down. More people than ever are accepting that the current law enforcement is broken and that the training needs to be changed. Even police are speak up and letting others know about the system and what they see as wrong. What ever protection that police departments had in the past are about to change. Even Qualified Immunity is on the chopping block. More video cameras recording more police abuses = major operational changes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So... why don't cops train? What are the things preventing or interfering with individual training? Do some agencies discourage outside training, and if so, why might they? What keeps an agency from having regular, on-going practice and training?

All good questions. How many police departments are there in the U.S? Each doing their own thing? controlled by people of different theories on how things should work. All of those questions that you brought up would have to be factored in. If the police department's "hands are tied" by number counters then that has to be brought to light as well. Just from working with city officials, I know how some will champion programs that give officials the biggest chance for the spotlight while other's get chopped up. That's city management issue and it may be an issue that needs to be addressed as a working component of policing.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

I think you took my statement out of context. The "Magic number" statement was not meant to be derogatory. Just based on what I've seen in my 23 years on the job. As for cameras, I've had a body camera for years. It as helped me on MANY occasions when accused of something I didn't due. "Abused by cops"? Like any line of work you will get some bad apples but I think your safe.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most cops are drained mentally after work

This would be a functional issue. If police are that drained after work, then that's an issue that should be addressed as well. Will they be hard days, yes. Everyone has difficult and crappy days. But everyone needs to the opportunity "to empty the bucket" if this doesn't happen then things build up and performance suffers. This brings us to the concept that may police shouldn't be handling every disturbance. Maybe create a separate department that helps lighten the load so that police officers can be used in more urgent matters. What can be done to reduce the drain? Are there calls that police answer and when they get on the scene think "why am I called for this crap?" Instead of having officers do everything. Start determining what officers should actually be dealing with.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

Love the idea and some dept. have "special units" that work with EMS/social workers and handle cases such as "metal issues" etc. I was also an EMT certified/trained officer for about 8 years and have extra training in that subject. I let my certification expire because I was paying for yearly C.E. out of my own pocket. The Dept. Loved that I was an EMT but didn't have the money to pay for it. The issue is still money. Many cities/jurisdictions, etc. can't find the money for everything else. It always goes back to time training and time working.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think you took my statement out of context. The "Magic number" statement was not meant to be derogatory. Just based on what I've seen in my 23 years on the job. As for cameras, I've had a body camera for years. It as helped me on MANY occasions when accused of something I didn't due. "Abused by cops"? Like any line of work you will get some bad apples but I think your safe.

I didn't take it out of context. I just don't like the "magic number" because I know what you are talking about. It's that number that departments and organizations are willing to pay instead of properly addressing the issue. Is the same thing that private businesses have. It's an accounting solution. Accounting solution rarely address and actual problem or why it happens. Accounting solutions address the financial cost and determines what's the lows dollar cost. The problems with that is that there are more than just financial costs. But accounting doesn't see it that way. So it was nothing you stated. It's just something I know all to well. I guess that's what I get for majoring in business, economics, and having to see a friend go through that "magic number." People don't realize that there's more to the "magic number" than just the financial part of it. There are things that both people have to agree to that are non-monetary and in many cases are exploitative. All of them are not bad, in some cases a person just wants a monetary remedy to pay for injuries. If that's what the person wants then fine. However, if the organization convinced the person that's what they wanted or scared the person into taking it, then that's I get a strong dislike for that "magic number"

I'm not going to say I won't ever be abused, that's just not very self-defense of me. But I'm not worried that everyday I'm going to be a target of a bad Cop. One officer is fine, I don't sweat that much, just hate going to court for speeding tickets and paying the fine. But I accept it if I'm in the wrong. My biggest fear is when multiple police arrive because at that point crazy stuff happens even if the person is innocent of whatever the police think the person has done. Like when the police showed up at my house and tried to look in, stating that there was an adult male who ran into the house after peeing on the side of a building at 1am in the morning. That was my WTF moment. That turned out well for me, They arrested the woman who made the claim for filing a false police report. I was just happy that the good cops should up and that I had a witness that could vouch that I was in the house for the entire day. I'm not worried about the good cops. I know many of them. Just like I don't worry about good people. It's the bad ones that make me uncomfortable, especially those with authority. I can't just punch a cop to defend myself. Like in the video of the guy getting slammed. I can't just do my martial arts stuff to get out of the hold. I can't defend myself the way that I would normally do so, and that's what makes it a scary situation for me.

I normally don't rub cops the wrong way but normally don't rub people the wrong way either. But I always keep it in the back of my mind.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Martial arts and LEO's actually have a long history together. Many Japanese and Okinawan karate experts have been in law enforcement. From Sokon Matsumura, being a security agent for the Okinawan King in the mid 1800's, to the late Nagamine Shoshin, a high ranking police official and Grand Master of Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu karate. Tak Kubota (whom I think is still alive at around 90 yrs) pioneered the use of the tonfa based tactical baton with the LAPD in the late 1960's. Many of the come-a-long and control techniques he taught I believe have been forgotten or discarded for being "too effective." I doubt many LEO's today realize the full potential of this weapon, even though they may carry it every day.

By being proficient in MA, a LEO has many tools to choose from that can subdue an individual, without having to resort to brute force. Many Japanese police officers are trained in Jiu-Jutsu, an art which encourages compliance. Also, by having the skills and confidence in unarmed combat, one is less likely to resort to projectile weapons, as well as having to depend on multiple officers to jump in and swarm the suspect (not that these are bad things if needed, but better if not needed as often.) Then, there is the mental and spiritual aspects of MA study that enhance one's ability to remain calm in stress situations and choose the proper tactical response.

I think there should definitely be ongoing MA training, but, I guess with all the classes in family counseling, race relations, gender tolerance, etc., there is not enough time to teach LEO's how to protect themselves and the public they serve. The optics of such training would no doubt bring accusations of "storm trooper" tactics. Politically, I think such MA training will never come. Sad.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

I think we are on the same page. Bad cops should be fired and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No room in my business for that. People need to feel safe. I also agree about the "magic Number". If it was wrong, the city SHOULD PAY IN FULL. If it is right, fight, it in court. Like you, I hate that math is more important.

My dept. paid out to a person once because of something I did to defend myself. it made me feel like I did something wrong. I was helping arrest a guy with multiple warrants, drug dealer ("real drugs" not marijuana) driving a stolen car and had beat the hell out of his girl-friend (if I recall) and was known for having a gun. he was generally a bad dude. said he was going to kill cops...

He released three big pit-bulls on me and I was forced to shoot one. No time for pepper-spray, no time for taser, my gun was already out because the bad-guy was known to have a gun so in a split-second, I chose to safe my butt. My camera got the whole thing and I was later cleared. Dude still got prosecuted for his crimes. You don't know me so You don't know how much I love animals. It bothered me to shoot a dog who was only doing what he was doing because some jerk trained him that way.

I feel the tax-payers should expect the best from cops and politicians. As for stress, I agree everyone in today's world has it. Cops are not special. As a Vet & cop, I can only tell you it is different. I do feel cops should not need to pay for there own training on personal time. I do because martial arts is special to me. I pay for my own training and teach on my own time. I do feel cops should get the training they need to do the job the agency/tax-payer expects of all public servants.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I let my certification expire because I was paying for yearly C.E. out of my own pocket. The Dept. Loved that I was an EMT but didn't have the money to pay for it.

There's grant money out there that the department can win so that your certification is covered as a community benefit. I wouldn't even have put that under police operational budgets or in government budgets at all. I would want money that the government politicians can't count. There are many private grants that could support such certifications, but this is something that the city, county, or state grant writing should be seeking. It may be one those things where the police needs their own grant writers.

There's more money out there than you realize. But it's not your job to know this, as this would be more of an administrative function that would determine what would be funded through a federal operational budget, and what would need to be funded through a Private grant. This is where a lot of my frustrations come in. Why do I know this and people responsible for funding the department don't know or don't care.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

Hi isshinryuronin,
You are TOTALLY right. I like tell my trainees in FTEP that is 23 years i'm never tasered anyone. I know it is because my Hapkido, MMA, & BJJ training gives me confidence to use "verbal judo" most of the time. M.A. also teaches respect, love and humility. Everything a cop needs to police. I started a a teen and it showed me to treat everyone with respect regardless of station. I can't tell you how many times I've avoided needing to use force because the offender knew my reputation for being fare and respectful. This is why I feel every cops should train.

I know that many Police units and military units in Korea us Hapkido as a base for training. I am also a fan of Koga-Jitsu (LAPD Robert Koga-diseased :-( ) in law enforcement. I carry a Yawara/Koga-stick and have used it from time to time. I show-case it in one of my videos. Thanks for the input,

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

JowGaWolf you are right about non-gov money. In fact the gov wold likely mess it up. I have a BIG homeless issue in my patrol area. IT IS SOUL SUCKING. I can't tell you how much dog food and people grocery's I paid for out of pocket before discovering some local non-profits that are helpful. I have also gotten help from a local volunteer group based on facebook. I work in a rural patrol area that is next to a city that pushes the homeless into my area

 

[drop bear]

So... why don't cops train? What are the things preventing or interfering with individual training? Do some agencies discourage outside training, and if so, why might they? What keeps an agency from having regular, on-going practice and training?

Let me guess. A company will do everything in its power to have a professional work force and safe work environment unless it costs money or requires effort.

 

[dvcochran]

Those days are gone. The majority of citizens no longer accept that. Citizens are realizing their rights. Sites like Facebook, youtube, and phone cameras have changed that forever.
As more people have cameras there will be more video of police misconduct. Police department are losing the ability to keep things on the low by keeping it out of courts. If I'm abused by a police officer and someone captures it on video, then I already know that not only can I get more than that "magic number" you speak of, I also know I can push for criminal charges against the officer so long as I didn't commit a crime. I also know I can push my experience to the public and I can affect how the local citizens feel about their police department.

Today's environment is hot. NASCAR BANS THE confederate flag, Mississippi voted to remove the confederate flag from the state flag, statues are being torn down. More people than ever are accepting that the current law enforcement is broken and that the training needs to be changed. Even police are speak up and letting others know about the system and what they see as wrong. What ever protection that police departments had in the past are about to change. Even Qualified Immunity is on the chopping block. More video cameras recording more police abuses = major operational changes.

Do you agree that 99.995% of all LEO are good, hard working people trying their best to do their job?

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

I can tell you most cops are "sheepdogs" (not wolves) looking to protect the public and sometimes that requires uncomfortable contacts/investigations that involve taxpayers/regular non-criminal people. It can be difficult getting to the bottom of a call ("terry stop") when emotions are high and everyone on scene is like, "I didn't do anything"! why are to stopping me"!

Sometimes things happen that shouldn't happen based on a split-second decision that the cops needs to make. A cop is only as good as his/her training, experience, and the situation often is moving fast. I can tell you statistically speaking (no emotions or CNN one-sided video) most cops get it right and do the right thing or as close to that as it can get. Please see the supreme court case law graham v connor (1889) on how cops are judged.

I was just looking to start a conversation about L.E. training and the martial arts. That being said, I know the world is charges right now and reform in law enforcement in needed. I'm a trainer and FTO so I see things maybe a little different then some cops. I know nothing should be done during an emotional state and america is emotional right now.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

oops 1989...

 

[Steve]

Do you agree that 99.995% of all LEO are good, hard working people trying their best to do their job?

Do I agree that "most" LEO are good, hard working people doing their best? Sure I do. I've known many personally... but I think it's more like 90% than 99.995%. So, to answer your question directly, do I think it's 1 bad apple in every 20,000 cops? Errr... no. I don't believe that. I think it's more like 1 bad apple in every 10.

And that depends entirely on how you define "good" and "hard working" and "trying their best." Because I find it hard to believe that even most of those "good" cops who are doing their best... I think they know who the "bad apples' are and don't do anything about it out of some twisted adherence to a misguided social contract. I'll also say that it depends on the city or county, because we've seen in some areas that there are systemic problems and the number of bad apples is probably more like 20% or more.