IvanTheBrick
Orange Belt
True, but if therapists perceive you be abused, they are meant to tell the authorities. And I don't know what the word brick has anything to do with the convo at this point...
Martial arts creates Violence? Say Yes or No
- Thread starter pulsescarborough
- Start date
How do you know they haven't? At 16+ social services don't have anything to do with you, you are considered 'adult'.
You brought it up.......
IvanTheBrick
Orange Belt
My therapy was when I was 13. Thus it was not abused. There is a fine line between discipline and abuse. Perhaps you just don't see it which is understandable, but it really depends on your upbringing.
It certainly does. Let me ask you this what would you think if you saw an adult smacking a small child across the face hard?
How many people think belting a small child across the face is acceptable?
Hanshi
Blue Belt
IvanTheBrick
Orange Belt
Depends on what you mean by a small child rly. Me and my sibling weren't slapped below the age of 6
Makes no difference. If you belt an adult hard across the face you are committing an assault, it's not different if it's a child.
Who would belt a 6/7 year old child across the face? A 10/11 year old?
IvanTheBrick
Orange Belt
Again, how many times do I have to repeat this? It's called discipline and no one said anything about belting, I said slapping. Secondly slapping an adult is different to slapping your child since you have a responsibility to discipline him as long as it does not go too far. Slapping is far away from too far. I don't know how many iterations this argument will play through; it's like talking to a brick wall. I give up.
Can I clarify a thing or two based on this (and previous comments you've made in this thread) please?
Is a gentle slap across the face more acceptable than a hard slap when used for discipline / making a point / getting them to listen and follow instructions?
Is any form of physical contact (causing pain or performed with threat of causing pain) acceptable for the reasons I cited in the previous paragraph or would any such action (including something like "if you don't do xyz I'm going to cause pain" - so a threat of physicality) fall into the realm of abuse/assault?
Why would anyone slap a child across the face full stop?
Why is causing pain to children acceptable to some? Never mind the law, is it morally acceptable to cause pain to a child on the pretext of 'teaching' them? We, at least in civilised countries, stopped the physical punishment of adults many years ago yet many still think it's acceptable to physically chastise a child why do you think that is.
Let me ask you a question, is it acceptable to you to hit a child full on across the face? Is it fine by you that a small child ( albeit one over 6) is hit hard across the face as a punishment? because you seem to be avoiding that question.
Nobody asked me that question, so by definition I have done nothing to avoid it. I didn't contribute to that part of the discussion.
So, in light of the fact you have now directed that question at me, for the first time, I shall happily answer with no avoidance.
No. Acceptable is something that it is not, irrespective of age.
A tap (literally not hard enough to mark) on the wrist to grab attention and prevent further injury, that's acceptable to me - irrespective of age.
As for:
I was born and raised in the UK. Whether that's a civilised country is a different debate.
So, any chance of not avoiding the question I asked you?
Wrong answer. I asked everyone.
I answered, you didn't like my opinion, which is fine but don't say I didn't answer.
Actually, you didn't answer.
Here it is again:
I'm most interested in the second part (I've even made it bold), and it's not necessarily in the context of use of force against a child - it's against any person, in any situation.
I'll even reword it.
Is any physical contact against another person (of any age) causing, or threatening to cause, pain acceptable as a means to discipline / make a point / get them to listen to instructions ever acceptable?
Good grief, shall I get the crayon out for you, really, you can't extrapolate my answer to that from the actual plainly written words which spell out that no I don't find it acceptable to lay hands on anyone for the purposes of disciplining/making them listen/make a point/make them listen. If the only way you can make your point or discipline someone is by 'laying hands' on them then it's a pretty bad state of affairs. It's not just a case of not being acceptable, it's a case of if you get to the point when you have to do that to someone you will have lost all respect people had for you and they will not listen, you will make them resent you, they will not follow your orders. Why would anyone think that is a good way to work?
I have had two jobs that required being able to lead people, I have been trained extensively in how to lead and at no point is the use of physical force advocated as a successful tactic to lead. Far from it. One of those jobs required an ability ( taught/ingrained/or both) to de-escalate situations, something that isn't going to happen if you lay hands on them first. If they put hands on your then it's a different situation but that's not disciplining them/making them listen/making your point.
As a child I was never smacked, my parents after my mother's experience of torture and violence could not bring themselves to ever justify even a slight tap as way of 'discipline' ( or anything actually), we did however learn not to touch things, to behave etc without being smacked. My children, now in their 40s and 30s were also not smacked, they are well adjusted, well rounded human beings successful in their careers and private lives with no criminal records or anti social tendencies so I can say hand on heart my way works. Not smacking doesn't mean no discipline, it doesn't mean children run wild ( why do people who smack assume those children who aren't smacked run amok or have no manners?) it means you work to teach your children instead on flipping a hand out to smack.
Consensual violence is a whole different thing and something I happen to enjoy.
Thank you for answering (even accounting for the slipping in of a thinly veiled insult with the "crayon" comment, but hey, I've had worse).
I never said your way doesn't work, if you read my previous comments carefully you should see that I said not smacking in conjunction with lack of discipline (i.e. being a pathetic whiner) doesn't work. I believe I also said that smacking for the wrong reasons (i.e. in retaliation) doesn't work either.
I got sparingly smacked as a child, very rarely twice for the same thing and never for fun or to relieve frustration.
I'm 40ish, I have no criminal record, I'm married (with two children I never fail to get complimented on for their behaviour) to the girl I got together with when I was 18, I run my own business that is moderately successful...
Am I a poster child for demonstrating that smacking never works and only serves to damage the lives of the 'victim'?
I never said your way doesn't work, if you read my previous comments carefully you should see that I said not smacking in conjunction with lack of discipline (i.e. being a pathetic whiner) doesn't work. I believe I also said that smacking for the wrong reasons (i.e. in retaliation) doesn't work either.
I got sparingly smacked as a child, very rarely twice for the same thing and never for fun or to relieve frustration.
I'm 40ish, I have no criminal record, I'm married (with two children I never fail to get complimented on for their behaviour) to the girl I got together with when I was 18, I run my own business that is moderately successful...
Am I a poster child for demonstrating that smacking never works and only serves to damage the lives of the 'victim'?
I actually haven't said it damages children as such but really there is no logic to smacking children to get them to learn or to discipline them, it is a pointless exercise which actually demeans us as human beings. Why do we need to hurt children to make them learn, why do we need to hurt children to 'discipline' them? If we wish to evolve into a peaceful species, perhaps a lofty ideal but one worth pursuing, we need to look at how we raise our children and frankly causing them pain as an aid to learning should be stopped.
You mention the crayon comment yet you constantly seek to undermine everything I say, not just on this thread, with funny little comments designed I assume to try and put me in my place considering your views on females ( oh I haven't forgotten your rant about women ) .... so no apologies for the crayon comment ( not thinly veiled btw but in your face) at all especially when you tell me 'if I read it carefully' etc etc etc. Oh I did, I can assure you.
You are a fan of hyperbole it seems and talk of things in extremis using words like 'victim' 'abuse' etc. You also put words into my mouth which is a foolish thing to do, you will embarrass yourself again.
Let's not, I don't want to see another horrible rant about women thank you very much. We are martial artists here, some are instructors some new students but all with a common love of martial arts. There is never a need to rant about either political subjects or perceived slights against a specific group. As mentioned on another thread there is a sister group if people want to go ballistic on politics.
_Simon_
Senior Master
Hehe ah yeah just joking, was more a tongue-in-cheek commentary on noticing a few threads tending to go in that direction hehe, totally joking and trying to lighten the thread a bit
. I also would love the forum to be a place of welcoming and enjoyment of discussion about martial arts for the experienced and newcomers, and not intimidating for them either, all good 
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