Martial Arts and Men's Ministry

[Brian King]

ynnad wrote

Just received my BB in Taekwondo and passed my first level instructor test (there are three in our curriculum). I am a pastor and am looking for ways to start teaching. We have a school and offer aftercare at our church, so I'm going to start a class for our aftercare program.

I have also been thinking about a Martial Arts Men's Night for our church. It would just be a time for the guys of our church to get together and learn a little self defense, get to kick some things and each other, fellowship of course, and maybe introduce some friends to our group. Is this something anyone else has seen? Do you think there would be interest?

　
Congratulations on your BB Pastor.
I think that a martial program tied into your church’s aftercare programs will be a great thing for the children and families while allowing you to grow both as a pastor and as a martial artist.

There are few places that men can go to grow. Few places that men can go to honestly explore pride/ego, fears and their weaknesses while being strengthened physically mentally and most importantly spiritually. Men’s ministries offer a great opportunity to be both be a mentor and to mentor to other men. A martial program can provide a useful beneficial means to spiritually strengthen a church and its worship in my opinion.

There are some issues that I think you will have to address and have straight in you head before you start. There is a certain amount of anti Christian bias in our populations and amongst martial artists this is also true. This should not be much of a problem in your men’s ministry but you will face some of this bigotry and ignorance as you research and share your program with others outside of your church. With-in your church may be some that have issues with self-defense and physical violence specifically. There will be some in your church that worry about the religious influences from outside of Christian beliefs and Christian philosophies and teachings that are found in many Asian martial arts.

With out knowing your church there is really no way of predicting initial interest, but can safely say that there is almost always a need.

Good luck with your teaching
Congratulations again on achieving your BB
Warmest Regards
Brian King

 

[jks9199]

I train as one of two females in a male class, the other female being my daughter, I teach an all male class. I have been doing MA for donkeys years now with various groups and never has this ever arisen. I have worked in an all male environment many times, my shift partners are male and again never has the subject even been mentioned about females.
It makes it sound as if you think females are dangerous and no male thats not related to a woman should be in a room with them, it also sounds similiar to something you would find in certain middle eastern countries.
I'm sorry but there's something very wrong when men and women have to take precautions against 'allegations'.

The US is a rather prudish country, if you haven't picked up on that. On top of that, over the last several years, people have gotten a lot touchier and more concerned, too. I worked at a place where supervisors were not permitted to address matters of clothing with members of the opposite sex; as a male supervisor, if I had a female subordinate show up wearing an outfit that would be more appropriate on a performer at a strip club than in an office -- I had to call for a female supervisor, even if it would take several hours for one to arrive from another work site!

 

[Carol]

There's prudish, then there is realistic.

No man allowed inside the house until hubby gets home implies that the woman either doesn't work outside the home or works on more limited hours than hubby does.

So hubby is either the primary, or the sole breadwinner for the family AND he either jockeys around his work hours or burns a vacation day when HVAC guys have to do their preventive maintenance, or the cable guy wires up the downstairs room, or the landlord changes the battery in the smoke detector?

I have a hard time buying that. Typically, when folks have a partner that stays at home full-time or part-time they hope the partner can manage routine home stuff while they focus on their job.

KungFu Penguin's description of his "friend" reads more like a man bragging about how much control they have over the woman in their life.

 

[thardey]

Yeah, it's pretty bad here, as far as sexual "allegations" go.

From an MA perspective, it's not so bad as it sounds in this thread. But from the religious perspective, even the hint of an "allegation" can force a pastor to resign from his church, sometimes without being able to continue working in the ministry for the rest of his life, since that "allegation" alone can dog his reputation.

It's an easy target for women who may want to hurt somone, and there is very little defense, other than to keep your alibis open, and avoid being alone with women.

Especially since pastors are supposed to be trusted, caring, and supportive, its part of the job to be a counselor. A man spending a lot of time behind closed doors with a woman who's been hurt, who is sharing very personal feelings and details about her life. It's a formula for a personal bond that may be inappropriate for a spiritual leader in that position.

Plus, whether for men or women, there's always ones who are petty, selfish, and out to cause trouble. All it takes is one who wants to damage the church or the pastor for some reason to claim that the pastor was innapropriate, and that's the end of it!

It's just easier to avoid that situation, and CYA.

Women can councel women, and Men councel men. Couples have a third party witness, so no big deal.

As for the Men's Martial Arts, I think its probably a great idea the way you describe. If the purpose is bonding and outlet for healthy activities, then go for it!

If the purpose is for teaching self-defense, then I would say do that without making an issue of gender one way or the other. A kick is a kick is a kick, after all.

 

[Tez3]

A men only class wouldn't be acceptable here however. A class has to be available to everyone, it can't be restricted to white male straight men of one religion. To be honest I don't know why men would want a male only class other than to make it a ganglike club. Boys only places tend to be quite anti female I've found.

 

[girlbug2]

Yes we are a very prudish country by world standards, and very litigious. I do hope we don't export that over to you. That being said, it's the reality we have to live with over here.

In my former Kenpo days I trained with the sensei in a strip mall studio that had a glass window front from ceiling to floor. I was able to take private lessons with him alone because the whole time we were in full public view. He once confided to me a few of the scarier situations that gave him pause to think about being alone with students in a prior location which was not so public. He made it a policy never to teach children private lessons without one of the parents present. On one occasion he asked me to assist him teaching a private lesson to a young lady who was not underage, but he was getting a vibe that she liked him a little more than as a student to teacher and he wanted to avoid all appearance of wrongdoing (he is married).

In my current Krav Maga training I have had "private" lessons with the male instructor, but actually I was sharing with another woman and we split the cost. I have not asked about his policy on this issue, but when it comes up someday, I will be interested how he explains it. He is also married.

So you see this isn't so much a sexist "control the woman" thing, as it does affect male instructors and what they should and shouldn't do with regards to their students. Men are just as accountable to their wives as wives are to their husbands.

 

[ynnad]

A men only class wouldn't be acceptable here however. A class has to be available to everyone, it can't be restricted to white male straight men of one religion. To be honest I don't know why men would want a male only class other than to make it a ganglike club. Boys only places tend to be quite anti female I've found.

I think you are really misunderstanding the context.

First, I am not trying to merely start a martial arts class. I'm trying to utilize martial arts as a way of drawing some guys together to build relationships among a demographic that doesn't get a lot of this. Second, I think it is very appropriate to have a men's only martial arts class. There are women only self defense and exercise programs. If there weren't many women wouldn't participate. It has nothing to do with trying to form a cult-like context, but everything to do with being comfortable and not wanting to be embarrassed and make yourself vulnerable to a bunch of men. The same is true for men, many will be out of shape and a little awkward. if they know there are going to be women there, they won't participate.

Second, the class would be open to any male who would like to participate in the group's purposes. I'm not sure why you want to inflame the conversation with your "white male straight men of one religion" comment, but it has no basis and reveals more about your sensitivities than it does what my original post is about.

Third, I question your statement that boy only places tend to be anti female. I assume you are a woman so I'm not sure how much experience you have with boy only contexts.

Anyway, thanks for keeping the posting lively.

 

[ynnad]

ynnad wrote

　
Congratulations on your BB Pastor.
I think that a martial program tied into your church’s aftercare programs will be a great thing for the children and families while allowing you to grow both as a pastor and as a martial artist.

Thanks. Any way I can connect the areas of my life that matter most is a good thing. My four kids also participate withe me. We did a little demonstration for the kid's Sunday school class this week. We take a virtue approach to education and this month is discipline. She asked us to come in and talk a little about martial arts as it relates to discipline. It was a lot of fun.

There are few places that men can go to grow. Few places that men can go to honestly explore pride/ego, fears and their weaknesses while being strengthened physically mentally and most importantly spiritually. Men’s ministries offer a great opportunity to be both be a mentor and to mentor to other men. A martial program can provide a useful beneficial means to spiritually strengthen a church and its worship in my opinion.

I agree. I think most Christian men think they are to reject any notion of masculinity as unChristian. I think they secretly watch UFC at home.

There are some issues that I think you will have to address and have straight in you head before you start. There is a certain amount of anti Christian bias in our populations and amongst martial artists this is also true. This should not be much of a problem in your men’s ministry but you will face some of this bigotry and ignorance as you research and share your program with others outside of your church. With-in your church may be some that have issues with self-defense and physical violence specifically. There will be some in your church that worry about the religious influences from outside of Christian beliefs and Christian philosophies and teachings that are found in many Asian martial arts.

Yes, I've thought through these matters personally and think I have some decent feedback to give in these matters.

Good luck with your teaching
Congratulations again on achieving your BB
Warmest Regards
Brian King

Thank you for your encouragement.

Danny

 

[ynnad]

As for the Men's Martial Arts, I think its probably a great idea the way you describe. If the purpose is bonding and outlet for healthy activities, then go for it!

If the purpose is for teaching self-defense, then I would say do that without making an issue of gender one way or the other. A kick is a kick is a kick, after all.

This is really the context. The purpose of the class is the former. If I were to offer a self defense class as a community service held in our church, it would certainly be open to anyone.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Tez3]

When I say it's not acceptable here I mean it's against the Sex Discrimination Act to have something, class or not for one sex only unless you can demonstrate for medical or legal reason such as being in a prison etc. Here if you don't allow women in you could be taken to court.

I think you may not have read my posts very carefully.

 

[Carol]

The law in the U.S. is complicated. In most states (if not all), it is legal for a person to open a private fitness business for one gender only.

Where it gets complicated is when something like this is taking place as part of a ministry, and separate activities are being offered to the separate-and-not-equal activities are being offered to the different genders.

The woman have an exercise class as part of their ministry, the men have Tae Kwon Do where they can start training for their black belt. It is easy to see the potential inequity.

As far as what kind of legal risk that presents, that's really a better question for an attorney specializing in non-profit issues. Certain types of discrimination can result in a church losing its tax-exempt status.

 

[Carol]

edit - please delete

 

[ynnad]

The law in the U.S. is complicated. In most states (if not all), it is legal for a person to open a private fitness business for one gender only.

Where it gets complicated is when something like this is taking place as part of a ministry, and separate activities are being offered to the separate-and-not-equal activities are being offered to the different genders.

The woman have an exercise class as part of their ministry, the men have Tae Kwon Do where they can start training for their black belt. It is easy to see the potential inequity.

As far as what kind of legal risk that presents, that's really a better question for an attorney specializing in non-profit issues. Certain types of discrimination can result in a church losing its tax-exempt status.

Actually, it being an activity as part of a church ministry is what makes it less complicated. Being in ministry and following case law for religious non-prophets for a while now, I can tell you the legal system is very friendly to churches. The system doesn't get involved, and when they do, they tend to lose. And the fact that no money is changing hands makes this all a moot point. As far as inequity because one is an exercise program and one is a martial art is laughable. Heck, someone could start an all red-headed first-born male church if they wanted to.

 

[Tez3]

Actually, it being an activity as part of a church ministry is what makes it less complicated. Being in ministry and following case law for religious non-prophets for a while now, I can tell you the legal system is very friendly to churches. The system doesn't get involved, and when they do, they tend to lose. And the fact that no money is changing hands makes this all a moot point. As far as inequity because one is an exercise program and one is a martial art is laughable. Heck, someone could start an all red-headed first-born male church if they wanted to.

I'm sorry, I know its a church etc but 'non -prophets'?

There's no exemptions for churches in law here and there's no tax benefits either. No church is above the law, the Catholic church is having trouble as it is with it's men only priests rule, probably a case in point when you have anything that is men only. The Church of England and the Church of Scotland has women vicars. We don't tend to have churches that 'minister' in the same way as American churches seem to, it's not a British thing really. You certainly couldn't start a red headed first born male church here, it would be against the law and frankly we aren't hugely interested in happy clappy churches, English people prefer their religion quiet lol.

 

[ynnad]

I'm sorry, I know its a church etc but 'non -prophets'?

There's no exemptions for churches in law here and there's no tax benefits either. No church is above the law, the Catholic church is having trouble as it is with it's men only priests rule, probably a case in point when you have anything that is men only. The Church of England and the Church of Scotland has women vicars. We don't tend to have churches that 'minister' in the same way as American churches seem to, it's not a British thing really. You certainly couldn't start a red headed first born male church here, it would be against the law and frankly we aren't hugely interested in happy clappy churches, English people prefer their religion quiet lol.

Actually, churches are classified as charities and do not pay taxes in the UK. And actually, yes, in the UK you can start whatever private club you want. But, actually, I'm not sure why you are taking the thread down this road. Please refer back to my original post. Thanks.

 

[Carol]

Actually, it being an activity as part of a church ministry is what makes it less complicated. Being in ministry and following case law for religious non-prophets for a while now, I can tell you the legal system is very friendly to churches. The system doesn't get involved, and when they do, they tend to lose. And the fact that no money is changing hands makes this all a moot point. As far as inequity because one is an exercise program and one is a martial art is laughable. Heck, someone could start an all red-headed first-born male church if they wanted to.

You know more than I do in that area I recall that there are a lot of liberties issued to churches...my concern was more about civil proceedings (a complaint from the inside).

Sounds laughable (and probably is), but having seen one house of worship get torn apart with lawsuits in the recent past over what seemed to me like minor stuff...I'd hate to see anyone else's spiritual home go through the same thing.

I hope you can keep us posted with how the project is going.

 

[Tez3]

Actually, churches are classified as charities and do not pay taxes in the UK. And actually, yes, in the UK you can start whatever private club you want. But, actually, I'm not sure why you are taking the thread down this road. Please refer back to my original post. Thanks.

It depends on the Charity Commisioners whether its a charity, being a church has nothing to do with it and no you can't start any club you want.

I'm not taking this thread anywhere, I was answering kungfu pengiun's post actually. The remarks weren't directed at you until you directed a rather sour post at me.

 

[thardey]

If I'm understanding the premise, we're not talking a club, a school, or membership, or dues, or anything of that nature.

It's very common for churches here to have women's fellowship groups, and men's fellowship groups, within the church.

Often we see "Men's prayer breakfasts" -- it's not that women aren't allowed, but that the focus is on men's issues. Same with "Women's Potluck" -- it's not that men would get kicked out, but it would be very akward.

For instance, a few years ago there was a movement called "Promise Keepers" that was focused on building integrity in the lives of men. It got a lot of bad press because people thought that women "weren't allowed." That was far from true, I saw several women at the event I checked out. It was just that the subject of the speaking was about things like porn, expectations of men in church, and in society, dealing with anger, the job description of being a father, etc, all from the male veiwpoint. There just wasn't a lot of incentive for women to come.

I've found that people gather into groups a lot easier if they gather around a common activity, and "the Bible" alone isn't enough. In our church, the women's groups have had the best attendance at cookie exchanges, lunch meetings, and hiking, and the men tend to show up for the paintball and airsoft games.

If I did something similar (which I've considered, when we get a little bigger) I would have a men's-focused Bible study, which uses martial arts as a draw.

I doubt that this type of activity would include things like testing, ranking, and a progression to Black Belt. If it did, then the focus changes to being a MA school, and then it should be open to all. But, like Ynnad said, that's not the focus. In my system, a 1st degree Black Belt isn't enough to open your own school anyway, but you can teach classes.

 

[ynnad]

I doubt that this type of activity would include things like testing, ranking, and a progression to Black Belt. If it did, then the focus changes to being a MA school, and then it should be open to all. But, like Ynnad said, that's not the focus. In my system, a 1st degree Black Belt isn't enough to open your own school anyway, but you can teach classes.

This is correct. Actually, most of what we'll be doing in regards to self-defense, I'm actually getting other places than my traditional taekwondo training. It would be great if this generated some interest in the school where I attend, but that would just be serendipitous and not the purpose of the group.

 

[Carol]

This is correct. Actually, most of what we'll be doing in regards to self-defense, I'm actually getting other places than my traditional taekwondo training. It would be great if this generated some interest in the school where I attend, but that would just be serendipitous and not the purpose of the group.

Thanks, that is much clearer. Makes more sense. :asian: