Marshal shoots passenger Miami airport

[Mark L]

You don't have time for an ethical, moral and legal debate, complete with dissenting points of view, in the 2.4 seconds between when you point the gun at the potential bomber and tell him to lay face down on the ground, and he shoves his hand in to his backpack. You also don't have time to convene a committee.

Actually, 2.4 seconds is a long time. I think any moderately intelligent individual can readily process the situational information in that time and arrive at a reasoned response. Based on the available data, that is exactly what the marshall did. You are of course correct in excluding debate and committees, I wonder what effect the stress of the encounter & adrenalin dump might have on the processing.

It looks like the feeding frenzy has begun. Reports on the radio this morning are questioning whether the guy said anything about having a bomb, and some of his freinds and family are claiming no knowledge of him being diagnosed with mental illness. I do hope the truth comes out, without media bias or political overtones.

 

[MJS]

It looks like the feeding frenzy has begun. Reports on the radio this morning are questioning whether the guy said anything about having a bomb, and some of his freinds and family are claiming no knowledge of him being diagnosed with mental illness. I do hope the truth comes out, without media bias or political overtones.

Of course. I'm sure it has something to do with the NEWS talking to people who claim that they didnt hear him say anything about a bomb. Thats what amazes me....they base an opinion off of limited info.

Friends and family saying he's not mentally ill, but his wife runs down the plane saying he's bi polar?

I too hope that the truth comes out, because this is taking the usual turn...LEO does his job and is wrong, no matter what the outcome.

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

It looks like the feeding frenzy has begun. Reports on the radio this morning are questioning whether the guy said anything about having a bomb, and some of his freinds and family are claiming no knowledge of him being diagnosed with mental illness. I do hope the truth comes out, without media bias or political overtones.

Yes, I saw this and I'm going to refrain from debating further until we have more info (as much as we can outside of the situation and at the mercy of the press, anyway).

sgtmac, when I read your question "what do you do?" I was caught up in the point you were trying to make and didn't take the question literally. I would have fired aiming for center of mass.

If we want to blame mental illness, then we are forced to say he died as a result of his mental illness. Whatever drove him to commit this action is what is responsible for his death.

The only problem I have with this statement, really, is that it makes people stop thinking. Using the illness as a blame bucket will always concern me.

 

[arnisador]

This appears to be an unmitigated tragedy. I am familiar with Bipolar Disorder and I have nothing but sympathy for the family of the man killed as well as the Marshall who acted in the only way possible under the circumstances.

Agreed. I sympathize with the family of the man killed and also with the marshall who was put in this no-win situation and followed the only reasonable course of action. He must have known there probably wasn't a bomb, too...but he also knew he couldn't take that risk on behalf of all present. This is a one big lose-lose situation.

 

[arnisador]

This is just a matter of elemental stupidity on the part of this gentleman (or if we want to write it off as mental illness, so be it).

That's a really inappropriate comment. It bothers me to think that a LEO would conflate mental illness and stupidity. Unless you're questioning the accuracy of the news reports indicating that he was seriously mentally ill, I think some degree of sympathy is in order.

The fact that this may have been a result of mental illness in no way causes the fault to suddenly shift to someone else.

I agree with this and the rest of what you wrote. In the heat of the moment there is no way to know the person's condition and intention, and knowing that he was mentally ill probably couldn't have changed things as he might still have had a bomb. There seems to be wide agreement that the marshall's actions were proper, perhaps inevitable.

But just as the blame doesn't shift to the marshall, the tragedy doesn't leave because the marshall acted as he should have. What is more tragic--I think of instances in literature and film--than knowing that two people who mean no harm to anyone are going to collide in a way that will cause lives to be changed forever? Here we have a marshall who will surely second-guess himself despite reassurances, a dead man returning from a missionary trip abroad, and a widow, let alone terrified passengers on the plane I imagine. This is, as stated before, an unmitigated tragedy.

 

[7starmantis]

That's a really inappropriate comment. It bothers me to think that a LEO would conflate mental illness and stupidity. Unless you're questioning the accuracy of the news reports indicating that he was seriously mentally ill, I think some degree of sympathy is in order.

Sympathy is in order, but its so often that sympathy turns to neglectful blaming and then the fault begins to turn on someone who is completely innocent of blame. Regardless of mental illness....to the air marshal it must have seemed quite a stupid thing to do. Its a tragedy, but responsibility must lie with him...no one else. Otherwise we should start questioning the wife as to why she allowed him off the medicine and into that type of situation.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

It looks like the feeding frenzy has begun. Reports on the radio this morning are questioning whether the guy said anything about having a bomb, and some of his freinds and family are claiming no knowledge of him being diagnosed with mental illness. I do hope the truth comes out, without media bias or political overtones.

Yeah, these things always look different after the dust settles. I'll be curious to see what the final analysis is. It's easy for me to believe that some peopel didn't know about his illness, and that some passengers missed the whole ruckus and didn't know what was happening...we'll see what's what in a week or two, probably, when some national paper or newsweekly does an in-depth story on it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I dont think any stoned person would be shouting and getting irate. Everything would be cool, man.

:ultracool

7sm

Not unless they ran out of snack food. :erg:

 

[arnisador]

Two articles that discuss the marshals' actions:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ec09,1,6576951.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

And in the immediate aftermath, federal officials said it appeared the marshals had followed established procedures and done exactly what they were supposed to do in bringing down a man who said he had a bomb.

But given the circumstances of the case — the man authorities killed turned out to be an unarmed mental patient with no explosives — security experts in and out of government are beginning what probably will be a long and careful examination of difficult questions: Can the system be refined to protect travelers while building in greater safeguards? Or does the price of safeguarding air travel include the possibility that innocent Americans will die?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2326&ncid=2326&e=5&u=/csm/20051209/ts_csm/amarshals_1

Few security experts question the actions of the air marshals who fired on Rigoberto Alpizar after he behaved erratically and reportedly said he had a bomb in his backpack. Within the context of their training, they say, the marshals acted appropriately.

But many question the training itself - as well as the way the federal government has handled the Federal Air Marshals Service (FAMS) since 9/11, when the small security agency with fewer than three dozen marshals was ramped up to several thousand in a matter of months.

The theme of most discussions seems to be support for the two marshals who did as they were trained, but questions about that training. The first article also cites the marshals' general distrust of the quality of TSA's screening procedures.

 

[Kreth]

"Innocent Americans" do not yell, "I've got a bomb!" I love the way the media spins this stuff. You can almost see it a la the old 50s newsreels showing the newspaper headlines:
"Will innocent Americans Die?"

 

[samurai69]

The theme of most discussions seems to be support for the two marshals who did as they were trained, but questions about that training. The first article also cites the marshals' general distrust of the quality of TSA's screening procedures.

The israelis have had air marshals for a number of years with out this sort of incident happening, i would certainly ask some questions regarding training, employee screening procedures too,

 

[MJS]

The theme of most discussions seems to be support for the two marshals who did as they were trained, but questions about that training. The first article also cites the marshals' general distrust of the quality of TSA's screening procedures.

IMHO, they're only questioning the training, because this is the first time, so they say, that something like this has happened. If Air Marshals fired shots on a plane on a regular basis, then I'm sure they'd look at this as just another day, but because the pattern of inactivity was broken, the question marks begin to float above their heads.

Mike

 

[kelly keltner]

I'm gonna kinda wade into this one from the perspective of the reports of some passangers hearing if the man who got shot said he had a bomb or not. My thoughts are this if you have 30 witnesses you are going to have 30 different statements as to what went down. The statments are problably going to have more in common than not. In a crowded plane I would not expect someone who is sitting in row 23 to be able to tell me word for word what was being said in an altercation in row one. So it is natural to assume that we are going to have reports that differ somewhat regarding if the suspect used the word bomb. So let's not be too quick to judge until a lot more of the facts come out.
Kinda on a side note I saw one of the passengers being interviewed on FOX news and he was saying that he had his head down while this was going on and was talking to his brother on his cell phone. He said an officer came up an karate chopped him in the neck causing him to drop his phone. A word to the wise, when in a possible explosive device situation do not use cell phones or walkie talkies. They might transmit on a frequency that could set the device off and law enforcement may not have the time to stop and explain that properly. Hence, causing a karate, Judo, or pork chop to parts of your body to potentially keep everybodies body in one piece instead of a bunch of tiny pieces eliminating the need for more bodybags than are neccesary.

kk

 

[punisher73]

That's a really inappropriate comment. It bothers me to think that a LEO would conflate mental illness and stupidity

He did do something stupid (stupid=not intelligent), if you can show me how this was an intelligent deciscion on his part I'd be happy to hear it. Smart people do stupid things sometimes.

I work in LE and have known many people to be bipolar both in and out of the job (only his wife has said he was bipolar, the rest of the family has said he has no mental illness). I can't even count the times I've been in the court rooms and hear the defendants claiming that all their crimes (no matter what they are and I'm only in court if it's a felony) are because they are bipolar. I guess some of us in LE get a little jaded when we see alot of mental illness from people and know it as such and someone just being a jerk and acting out and blaming it on bipolar.

The israelis have had air marshals for a number of years with out this sort of incident happening, i would certainly ask some questions regarding training, employee screening procedures too,

That's because the people in Israel have soldiers with automatic weapons on the street corners ready to shoot someone that is a threat and the people there know that to yell "bomb", or act like you have one is a fast ticket to the grave.

 

[shesulsa]

You know, having backed off a bit and mulled more things over, there really are SO many possibilities here. He might have said "I have a bomb" or "It's not like I have a bomb." or "I have to have a bong hit" and in that cabin where people's thoughts are on luggage, transfers, hot words, it could have sounded like "I have a bomb." I'm sure some people think that's reaching, but I really don't think so.

The bipolar thing, yeah, I see how LEOs can be jaded at this point, but ya know, my entire point behind the devil's advocate thing is that you just can't allow that kind of thing to make you stop thinking. When you don't have time to think and you have no other alternative then you must fall back on your training which is what this officer did.

The family denying bipolar, well, that really doesn't mean anything. They honestly might not know - maybe he was diagnosed in adulthood during his marriage and it's not something he wanted known. They could be in denial. We don't know what kind of family dynamics are going on there nor have they confirmed yet (I believe) whether he was or not.

We'll see, I guess.

 

[7starmantis]

I dont think I would say it was a lack of thinking on the marshals behalf. His training encourages thinking, and thats exactly what he did. The problem is in a lethal situation less lethal force just isn't the answer. You have to match force. It sucks, it means people die, and its harsh, but its the way the world is. In the case of an explosive devise (which is what the marshal believed) you must end the threat completely. You can take no chances of failing. He was thinking, thinking about the lives of all the innocent people around as well.

7sm

 

[Tgace]

So does being bipolar mean that the chances that this guy had a bomb was higher or lower? The fact seems to be presented so as to say "the guys bipolar he doesnt REALLY have a bomb". I dont think that that is a point that should slow down an officer at all in a situation like this. If anything it may even be argued that the officer was even more concerned because of that fact.

 

[shesulsa]

NO NO NO - his being bipolar doesn't necessarily decrease his risk in having a bomb.

 

[Tgace]

Dont get me wrong Geo. I see where you are coming from and I didnt mean to imply that you said that. Im just talking about some of the media spin Im beginning to see. While not outright stated the whole "someone said hes bipolar so the Marshal shouldnt have shot" seems to be rumbling around....

 

[tshadowchaser]

Sorry to say but if the man said he had a bomb and reached for anything the marshal did the thing he is trained to do Save LIVES by eliminating the threat. Im glad the man was a good at his job it could have been a threat if if the other person was bipolar
As far as those that say the marshal should not have shot "how the hell was he supposed to know if the threat was real or not" he acted to protect lives