marriage

[Flatlander]

I'm wondering what all you thinkers think about this statement.

"the family that prays together, stays together"

 

[michaeledward]

Approximately 50 % of marriage's in America end in divorce.
Approximately 75 % of American's state they are of the Christian faith.

The statement doesn't seem to hold any truth to it.

Mike

 

[MA-Caver]

Well Mike it depends upon where you live eh?
Married couples that do hold true and faithful to the vows they took upon the altar (or judge/justice o' peace) and understand and have faith in God and in each other have a better chance to last.
I know of couples with large families who have been married for more than 20-30 years... HAPPILY.
And yes, I do know of couples who divorce after the 2nd or 3rd kid for one reason or another and they've been together less than 10 years. I even know those who divorce less than a year of marriage.
Of those divorces, in my experience... they left God out of the equation. Even those of different faiths, if they found a way to compromise and know and respect each other's boundries... they could've managed to stay together... as long as they prayed, believed, relied upon the God of their choice.

But then... that's just my opinion... :asian:

 

[Ender]

Macarver makes some valid points in the a family that shares goals and values will undoubtely increase their chances of staying together. Another point would be the state of values in today's society. It is so much easier to get a divorce today than, for example, our parents generation. There were financial considerations, Divorce court, and the overall disapproval of divorce by society. Today there are "No Fault" divorces and "Irreconcillable Differences" . Who wouldn't have irreconciable differences with anyone? Couple that with people going into a marriage with the outlook that "if I doesn't work out, We'll just get a divorce". Well of course the divorce rate has increased. Add to the mix of "repeat offenders" who are on their 3rd or 4th marriages, then yes, the divorce rate would increase. But I think if you look at long term successful marriages, you'll find a commitment to shared values, and that would include praying together.

 

[michaeledward]

Well Mike it depends upon where you live eh?
Married couples that do hold true and faithful to the vows they took upon the altar (or judge/justice o' peace) and understand and have faith in God and in each other have a better chance to last.
I know of couples with large families who have been married for more than 20-30 years... HAPPILY.
And yes, I do know of couples who divorce after the 2nd or 3rd kid for one reason or another and they've been together less than 10 years. I even know those who divorce less than a year of marriage.
Of those divorces, in my experience... they left God out of the equation. Even those of different faiths, if they found a way to compromise and know and respect each other's boundries... they could've managed to stay together... as long as they prayed, believed, relied upon the God of their choice.

But then... that's just my opinion... :asian:

These are all anecdotes. They do not provide evidence to the point in question.

Does prayer promote successful marriages? I do not know. The vast majority of people in America state that they practice a formalized religion, and yet half of those that choose to marry end up in a failed marriage. The facts argue against the thesis.

I am an athiest. I do not pray. My marriage (so far) is doing better than most, although it is too soon to state which side of that 50 percentile my wife and I will end up on.

The premise (Family that prays together, stays together), like most arguements for formalized religions, is difficult, if not impossible, to prove. I understand that religion brings a great deal of comfort and support to practitioners, but that does not prove any points about civil life.

Do we have any clergy who read this board that can participate in this discussion? I think some first hand references might be insightful (although, not necessarily evidentary).

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well Mike it depends upon where you live eh?
Married couples that do hold true and faithful to the vows they took upon the altar (or judge/justice o' peace) and understand and have faith in God and in each other have a better chance to last.
I know of couples with large families who have been married for more than 20-30 years... HAPPILY.
And yes, I do know of couples who divorce after the 2nd or 3rd kid for one reason or another and they've been together less than 10 years. I even know those who divorce less than a year of marriage.
Of those divorces, in my experience... they left God out of the equation. Even those of different faiths, if they found a way to compromise and know and respect each other's boundries... they could've managed to stay together... as long as they prayed, believed, relied upon the God of their choice.

But then... that's just my opinion... :asian:

MACaver et al,

No disrespect to religion in any form.

I have also know those who were happily married for years until death of one. Some have been both religous, and others neither was religous, and in one it was mixed, yet neither one expected the other to change.

I also have to say that most of these were people before my age. There are some my age who have been continuously together, and some have religion, maybe not in the beginning, but over time. Others do not have religion.

In my experience it related not only to people who share goals, but to a willinigness of both parties to compromise and support the other person. It takes two people working all the time, together with the other. Yet, many times a single person either feels they are unhappy and it is the other person's fault for their unhappiness. No one but yourself can allow yourself to be happy. No drug, or alcohol or person will correct this unhappiness. My opinion at least.

:asian:

 

[tsunami]

I think the statment could just as well be " the family that does anything together, stays together". An involved family that is engaged and participates in each others lives has a tighter bond than those who do not. This is hard work but nothing of substance ever comes easy.

George

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'm wondering what all you thinkers think about this statement.

"the family that prays together, stays together"

I'm the worst person in the world to ask about marraige issues

 

[loki09789]

I'm wondering what all you thinkers think about this statement.

"the family that prays together, stays together"

The saying, as I understand it, simply points out that having a common value structure that you actively participate in can help build a strong family connection. I would say that it is 'true' as a valid and useful tool to make stronger and more productive family relationships.

Mward makes the statistical point that 50% divorce rate and a 75% polled Christian population as proof that it isn't 'true.' I disagree. It isn't suppose to be 'true' because of popular admission of being Christian (or any other religion) because saying you believe a certain way doesn't mean that you are active or focused on using that value system for building a strong family bond. There are many a Jewish/Christian/Muslim...what ever person who identifies themself as such simply as a cultural/heretige association and not as a practicing member.

The idea IMO is that by actively sharing a common set of values (key word ACTIVELY) that it can enrich the family bonds, thats all. A tighter family is less likely IMO to be a 'broken' family.

 

[michaeledward]

The saying, as I understand it, simply points out that having a common value structure that you actively participate in can help build a strong family connection. I would say that it is 'true' as a valid and useful tool to make stronger and more productive family relationships.

Mward makes the statistical point that 50% divorce rate and a 75% polled Christian population as proof that it isn't 'true.' I disagree. It isn't suppose to be 'true' because of popular admission of being Christian (or any other religion) because saying you believe a certain way doesn't mean that you are active or focused on using that value system for building a strong family bond. There are many a Jewish/Christian/Muslim...what ever person who identifies themself as such simply as a cultural/heretige association and not as a practicing member.

The idea IMO is that by actively sharing a common set of values (key word ACTIVELY) that it can enrich the family bonds, thats all. A tighter family is less likely IMO to be a 'broken' family.

I made no claims to the population of the United States that claims 'Christian' religion. I said 'formalized' religion. By which, I meant their religions had common attributes: a preacher, a building, a teaching structure.

Now, you mention 'Jewish', 'Christian', 'Muslim' and 'cultural heritage' as attributes by which married and divorced couples identify themselves. Which of these self-identified groups teaches that divorce is acceptable?

According to your disagreement, those that claim to be practicing formalized religion are either a) lying or b) not practicing their beliefs.

I think you are arguing that people who say they are practicing religious beliefs are not really practicing religous beliefs. I can agree with that. If that is not what you are saying, I am curious as to what your intent is.

 

[loki09789]

I made no claims to the population of the United States that claims 'Christian' religion. I said 'formalized' religion. By which, I meant their religions had common attributes: a preacher, a building, a teaching structure.

Now, you mention 'Jewish', 'Christian', 'Muslim' and 'cultural heritage' as attributes by which married and divorced couples identify themselves. Which of these self-identified groups teaches that divorce is acceptable?

According to your disagreement, those that claim to be practicing formalized religion are either a) lying or b) not practicing their beliefs.

I think you are arguing that people who say they are practicing religious beliefs are not really practicing religous beliefs. I can agree with that. If that is not what you are saying, I am curious as to what your intent is.

No, I am saying that the quoted phrases validity isn't something to be measured in quantity standards so much as quality standards, which was the approach you presented with your comparison between the divorce and religious identification statistics (sorry about the assumption/quick read and Christian only label). The phrase is anecdotal at best and intended as a way to promote active use of religious values as a way to build deep relationship connections.

None of those listed faiths 'approve' of divorce but they all have conditions and procedures that allow for a 'good' divorce (so to speak). Even the way that a family - deeply rooted and bonded in a faith - handles a divorce/separation/anulment can be a testemony to their faith. They can either be cruel and abusive or try to be fair, understanding and as loving (in the human kind way, not the romantic way) as possible to reduce the unavoidable pain and damage that such a thing can bring.

Of course, the 'evil'/'good' aspect comes into play if you pose the question:
"What if the family that is praying together, stays together because they are praying in a way that was taught to them by some hate based group that uses religion as a manipulation tool to perpetuate hate, like KKK/white race groups/Religious based terrorist groups....?"

Of course that isn't good for the general public, but it will make a strongly bonded family none the less. Now someone will say that I am for terrorist training or something like that .

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Although I think divorce is a very sad thing, I wish people wouldn't talk about it like it is the downfall of society.

I think that people who share a faith - or the same approach to life - may be more harmonious or in-step to begin with. But circumstances may change that closeness or similarity of perspective. In the couples I have seen, sometimes a shared faith/community *encourages* them to stay together, because the resulting fallout of divorce would be so tremendous on both people.

 

[loki09789]

Although I think divorce is a very sad thing, I wish people wouldn't talk about it like it is the downfall of society.

I think that people who share a faith - or the same approach to life - may be more harmonious or in-step to begin with. But circumstances may change that closeness or similarity of perspective. In the couples I have seen, sometimes a shared faith/community *encourages* them to stay together, because the resulting fallout of divorce would be so tremendous on both people.

Good point FM, I would say that by today's standards the "Greatest Generation" that grew up in the tail of the depression would probably have been categorized as 'dysfunctional families' or 'broken families' and look at what was accomplished during WWII.

"Family" takes on different forms for sure. It is the love and respect level - even in the worst moments - that are indicators of how much quality is put into that family regardless of the structure.

 

[michaeledward]

If only we could go back to the point where human life expectance was 35 to 40 years of age. Then we could all get married in our teens, procreate the next generation in our early 20's, raise the offspring, and die, leaving room for the next generation.

Now that everybody is living to their 70's & 80's ... we end up being married for 40, 50, or 60 years. That's the real problem.
O.K. ... that is an attempt at humor. "Live Long and Prosper."

 

[mj-hi-yah]

If only we could go back to the point where human life expectance was 35 to 40 years of age. Then we could all get married in our teens, procreate the next generation in our early 20's, raise the offspring, and die, leaving room for the next generation.

Now that everybody is living to their 70's & 80's ... we end up being married for 40, 50, or 60 years. That's the real problem.
O.K. ... that is an attempt at humor. "Live Long and Prosper."

That's actually very funny Micheal! Those vows until death do you part have been around for a long time. So with the life expectancy being much longer today maybe people need to think a little harder before making that decision, which they'll have to live with for an extra 40 years perhaps!

 

[Flatlander]

Perhaps then, "'til the kids finally move out do us revisit the issue of parting" would be more appropriate.

 

[loki09789]

Funny thing is that the idea of romantic 'love bond' marriage is a relatively recent fashion around marriage. Marriages, historically, were more about family contracted business collaborations and such. Marry off your daughter to the Duke with the shipping fleet and you can send your livestock to France cheaply and both you and the new in laws make money....

Women were the legal equivalent of children in the eyes of the courts/society and were traded off with a Dowry to sweeten the pot...

As far as divorce statistics go, that idealogical shift may have as much to do with the divorce rates as anything else. People would tolerate more when the expectation wasn't necessarily romantic bliss but only contractual stability - anything more was icing on the cake.

 

[loki09789]

I think the statment could just as well be " the family that does anything together, stays together". An involved family that is engaged and participates in each others lives has a tighter bond than those who do not. This is hard work but nothing of substance ever comes easy.

George

Agreed, look at the 'Hockey families', Gymnastic families, family run businesses that create a reason for cooperation/interaction and problem solving beyond just family harmony. It adds that common cause/team/goal aspect to family dynamics...much like the mafia

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Funny thing is that the idea of romantic 'love bond' marriage is a relatively recent fashion around marriage. Marriages, historically, were more about family contracted business collaborations and such. Marry off your daughter to the Duke with the shipping fleet and you can send your livestock to France cheaply and both you and the new in laws make money....

Women were the legal equivalent of children in the eyes of the courts/society and were traded off with a Dowry to sweeten the pot...

As far as divorce statistics go, that idealogical shift may have as much to do with the divorce rates as anything else. People would tolerate more when the expectation wasn't necessarily romantic bliss but only contractual stability - anything more was icing on the cake.

And the fact that since women were considered children or chattel, they often had nowhere to go out of their marriage, whether it was blissful or cold or abusive.

 

[Raewyn]

I'm the worst person in the world to ask about marraige issues

Me too. Mine did not work out as I had hoped!!! Maybe if both my ex and myself and some sort of faith it may have worked out..............but even then I really dont think so. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!