Manners or Kenpo?

[arnisador]

If you can recall, with perfect clarity every technique that you have ever been shown, and with equal clarity of recall, its noted source

You and Mr. Hubbard are referring to specific techniques. But that's not at all what I asked about. I asked about styles you had "done" as part of "research" you were conducting. Yes, I'd expect that to be a significant piece of information that one would recall, unless you consider taking a seminar to be the same as studying a system.

without referring to any written or otherwise recorded notation

No one said you couldn't use your notes. This is an open-book situation. Are you posting from your home?

As for making your own personal style, that's great, though it's hard to do entirely on one's own without a partner(s) to help perfect the techniques (esp. where grappling is concerned).

may we now return to the subject I originally breached here

The Kenpoists? Yeah, they drive me crazy too. Far too many feel that their way is the only way, because it's "scientific". I've had this debate here several times before.

I expected better here.
Was I incorrect?

Pass.

 

[eyebeams]

It's unseemly to beg for face.

 

[Hand Sword]

I still think it should be considered that since the old ways of deamanding respect are very small now, replaced by a much friendlier world of all martial arts, that those who scream for it have an extra lense focussed on them. It's always been around, it's just "odd" now or brought to attention because the crowd has changed. With that also comes an unfamiliararity and a negative view that blows it out of proportion from the newer generation.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of jerks who are nothing but ego's, especially after Mr. parker passed on. A lot of the members of the pack vying to be the top dog. All they have done was use the ideology that Kenpo was an upgrade over what was, and have expanded it to be used against each other. Whether Kenpo is or not is another thread topic.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Getting back to manners...


I am sitting here and thinking about what we as martial artists put up with. For instance, I know of a several high-ranking martial artists who are always drunk. At least every time I see them.

If these individuals were teachers of a different profession they would probably be fired or at least not allowed to teach. Yet in the martial arts we seem to ingore this.

I was at a seminar once where the guest teacher smelled like hard liquor and spent most of the time talking about politics instead of martial arts. And because I seem to have "manners" I dare not speak his name here. Yet me and several other students at this seminar talked about it at length after the teacher left. And we all agreed that this was not a man we wanted to follow.

Of course, if this teacher was not a martial artist and perhaps a teacher of some other subject, I might tell everyone in order to inform the masses as some kind of public service.

So why do we do this? Do we really not care that our "leaders" are on a road of self-destruction? If our friend was a drunk, on his ump-teenth marriage, lied to us several times and conned us out of money would we still call him "master" or "sensei" or whatever, simply because he knows a few martial art tricks?

Are the lessons of how to hurt others really so important that we will lay our morals and integrity to the side of the road in order to learn them?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am no longer going to support these types of "teachers". I believe they are not teaching the true ways of martial arts. Perhaps they are teaching the way of the bully or the con-man, but certainly not the way of the warrior. The true warrior, imo, is someone who is trust worthy and noble. And when we look at the japenese titles like renshi, kyoshi and hanshi, the "shi" means gentleman. Are the ones who use these titles really acting accordingly? Or how about the ones who use titles like "sigung"... are they really acting like a responsible member of the family? A grandfather you can look up to?

For those of you who are out there leading by example and carrying on the honorable traditions of the martial arts, I bow to you.


With respect,
John Evans

 

[Kacey]

In the end, manners, like many other things, come down to personal integrity. My personal integrity leads me to follow the rules of courtesy with all whose station deserves it; however, my personal integrity also dictates that I show genuine respect only to those deserving of it.

As John Evans said, many times martial artists will turn a seemingly blind eye toward seniors whose behavior is not appropriate for their rank - I will, however, disagree that it only happens in the martial arts; other areas have their own version of rank and how those junior in rank must act towards those who are senior, including (but not limited to) medicine, armed forces, business, and law. It is the obligation of each of us to respond appropriately to the abuse, misuse, or other inappropriate actions by those higher in rank; the method that such response should take will vary depending on the relative ranks of those involved, the type of organization/institution, and the type of action that is being responded to.

How does this relate to manners? In a thread sparked by this one, I discussed the difference between demanding respect and earning it - the above relates to a third issue - expecting respect. As with those who demand respect based on their rank/experience/etc., those who expect respect frequently don't deserve it - but their rank/experience does entitle them to the outward demonstration of respect, in that the forms of courtesy must be observed in their presence. Respect for the organization in which the person has a position, however, dictates that outside of the person's presence, steps must be taken (too various to discuss here) to prevent such persons from using their rank, and the respect due the rank, to the detriment of others.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Time to irk a few folks.

Respect is an interesting thing.

I have great respect for certain organizations. As a group they have accomplished wonderful things. I may still consider individual members to be lacking.

I can respect a persons position, their accomplishments, and what it took for them to get there, and still consider the person themselves, contemptible.

I'm not impressed when someone throws a high rank, fancy title, or multiple-decade long training history at me, and expects me to bow and scrape and be all impressed and give them special leeway to be a jackass on my sites. That's not the act of a humble person. That's not the act of someone who is worthy of personal respect, imho. I will respect their achievements, but as a person, no.

I don't care who they trained with either. Too often I hear "I was a personal student of X" which translates into "I was a pain in his *** every time he came to town". Oh, many did get the one on one training, but there are a few, and we all know someone who has embellished their resume more than a fair bit.

You want my respect? Ok. You have it.
You have the respect that all good hosts show their guests.
Beyond that, you earn it.
You show me that you aren't an arrogant stuffed gi.
You show me that you are man (or woman) enough to admit when you may be wrong, and will accept a minor staff nudge in a polite manner. (Not blowing up and taking things as if we'd slapped and depanted the Queen. Yes, we've had at least 1 9th or 10th dan go ape over a "please keep it polite" public nudge.)
You don't send me a profanity laced "love letter" insulting me, and my staff at a personal and professional level because someone else said something you don't like. (Happens quite often really).
You don't tell me nice things to my face, then go to another board and tell the world how much I suck.
Respect is a 2 way street, and on countless days I and our staff here has stood there and taken it as some disgruntled baboon has flung their poo at us, and not countered.

I've had a dozen+ threats of lawsuits in the 8 years this sites been running.
None came from no belts. All came from those claiming high rank. When you remove the full out frauds from the mix, the rest, all legit. And all threatening action where a friendly and respectful "hey, got a problem, can you help?" would have sufficed.

And all started out "I've been training for 30+ years......" or "I'm a student of Highly Revered Diety Guy" or "I'm Master so and so, and I have a 233rd dan in WhoFlungPooDo..." and continue with "You will do as I say and kiss my ring or I will SUEEEEEEEE Yooooou!"
Right. Bite me.

I'll continue to be polite. I'll continue to be respectful, at least at a professional level, until such time as we've built a relationship and established a personal level of respect.

Or such time as we haven't. At which time, one of us won't be here.
I don't go anywhere.

Respect is both given and earned.
It is also lost.
Sadly, I've dealt with too many who are happy to lose it, just so they can let you know how great they are one more time.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I was taught that true leaders inspire & influence.
Imposters drive, demand, & degrade.


_Don Flatt

 

[Kacey]

Great post, Bob!

 

[LawDog]

Respect is a two way street,
No one should demand that it be given and no one should demand that it has to be earned from them.
:asian:

 

[Kosho-Monk]

I have found that most martial arts "masters" are too arrogant to admit they have made a mistake. I once told a teacher that I had gotten complaints about a seminar he taught. The students felt he didn't really teach the subject matter that he said he would. His response was basically that the students weren't at his level of understanding yet and they should know not to sign up for future classes of his.

He also only taught for about half of the time he said he would but still charged me full price. And then he had the nerve to ask students to pay him to set up another seminar during the one he was teaching. This was because I said I wasn't going to set up another seminar at that time.

Needless to say I haven't spoken to him since and don't think I will ever again unless he calls to apologize. But he probably won't.

I agree with the statement that manners are a two-way street. But that's not what I've seen on many occassions.


With respect,
John Evans

 

[The Master]

I have penned, or keyed as it were, two missives here, describing a particular occurrence. One that happens in many other arts such as JKD and Wing Chun to name two. I have seen however that the extent applies more often to Kenpo than the rest. It may be simply due to the larger participation of kenpo practitioners on the forums I frequent compared to their brethren. The conclusions though, are there to be seen.

A discussion involving kenpo will often descend into the pointless debate over who is doing it "right", and involve arguments over lineage to determine what "right" truly is. When this happens, any pretext of the concept of "respect" and too often "manners" is thrown away, so that those involved can then engage in a battle of wits, with both subtle and direct insults used.

I believe it has been said that rather than arguing over who does the "right" kenpo, it should be discussed on what "effective" kenpo is. To that, I agree. As I stated in one of my earlier writings, we are all different. To that I will add, better to adapt kenpo to our capabilities and make it effective for us, than to force ourselves into awkward positions so that we are text-book perfect, but functionally useless.

However, don't take my no-rank word for this. Print this page out, and take it to whichever individual whose words and opinions hold weight with you and have them read it. This way, if they find these words sound, you can rest assured that the thoughts have been validated by someone with the correct number of stripes on their belt, the correct signatures on their papers, and the correct colour of gi upon their back. After all, truth is only truth if the right people tell it to you, correct?

 

[Matt]

I believe it has been said that rather than arguing over who does the "right" kenpo, it should be discussed on what "effective" kenpo is. To that, I agree. As I stated in one of my earlier writings, we are all different. To that I will add, better to adapt kenpo to our capabilities and make it effective for us, than to force ourselves into awkward positions so that we are text-book perfect, but functionally useless.

However, don't take my no-rank word for this. Print this page out, and take it to whichever individual whose words and opinions hold weight with you and have them read it. This way, if they find these words sound, you can rest assured that the thoughts have been validated by someone with the correct number of stripes on their belt, the correct signatures on their papers, and the correct colour of gi upon their back. After all, truth is only truth if the right people tell it to you, correct?

I think you are getting somewhere. That was almost readable, with only a minimum of tortured pretense. These are great points, especially the adversarial relationship of textbook perfection to functional movement.

Matt

 

[DavidCC]

IAs I stated in one of my earlier writings, we are all different. To that I will add, better to adapt kenpo to our capabilities and make it effective for us, than to force ourselves into awkward positions so that we are text-book perfect, but functionally useless.

I'm curious what differences you are referring to...
height
weight
restrictions on normal movement due to previous inuries or congenital defects
what else?



so if we look at something like an inward block, do you think that it really needs to be "tailored" becasue of someone's height or weight etc?

IMHO, I think we are all much much more the same than we are different, and that often "I'm different" is nothing but a crutch or an excuse to not put in the hard work to do it "right" (with "right" being defined as "the method that maximizes the potential of the human anatomy").

...force ourselves into awkward positions so that we are text-book perfect, but functionally useless

your textbook must not be that great if it's perfection is awkward and ineffective LOL

 

[The Master]

..

I'm curious what differences you are referring to...
height
weight
restrictions on normal movement due to previous inuries or congenital defects
what else?

That is a good list I think. After all, how many attackers will be so kind and considerate as to only pick on people their own size?

so if we look at something like an inward block, do you think that it really needs to be "tailored" becasue of someone's height or weight etc?

Ponder how Tattoo would block the upper cut from Mr. Roarke during his final performance review, or how PeeWee Herman would counter the reigning Yokozuna, and the answer will be apparent.

Pair up the 4 ft teen girl (all of 7 stone soaking wet), with the 6'5 body builder (250 lbs, ripped muscle). Now lets work those techniques, and see what happens to "text book" vs "reality".

Any art trained for self defense fails in that mission if the defender is not taught how to adapt to changing situations, and being at a true tactical disadvantage in such situations. Out of the 4 kenpo schools I have visited, only 1 was teaching that. The rest insisted on "'by the book", or had "repaired" kenpo by removing the techniques they did not understand and replacing them with parts of other arts.

For those keeping score on such things, 2 claimed EPAK, 1 claimed Tracy, and 1 claimed some bastardized mixed version with at least 3 dotted line lineages in addition to their solid primary line and 2 whited out prior primaries. (You could supersize there)

IMHO, I think we are all much much more the same than we are different, and that often "I'm different" is nothing but a crutch or an excuse to not put in the hard work to do it "right" (with "right" being defined as "the method that maximizes the potential of the human anatomy").

Humanity comes in countless heights, weights, and sizes. An art that can not adapt to such things, is not as useful as one that does. Pity the poor lefties, forced to always use their weak side, since EPAK is never done on 'the left'. (From a 5th dan kenpo instructor of some note, who shall remain nameless. I was "corrected" at that event for doing 5 swords from both the left and right.)

your textbook must not be that great if it's perfection is awkward and ineffective LOL

My text would allow for the imperfect to succeed. Remember, "Drunken Monkey" may look bizarre, but it works quite well, in it's logical illogic.

Ook Eek Op Ah Ah.
:asian:

 

[DavidCC]

Ponder how Tattoo would block the upper cut from Mr. Roarke during his final performance review, or how PeeWee Herman would counter the reigning Yokozuna, and the answer will be apparent.

Pair up the 4 ft teen girl (all of 7 stone soaking wet), with the 6'5 body builder (250 lbs, ripped muscle). Now lets work those techniques, and see what happens to "text book" vs "reality".

I think the question with these extremes of size difference becomes "should they be blocking" not "should they block differently".

If you can teach Katie the 4ft teen the MOST efficent way to do a specific block, why would she need any other ways to do that same block?

 

[Carol]

IMHO, I think we are all much much more the same than we are different

We are. Tom Sotis (AMOK founder) emphasizes that we are of universal design, but varying proportions.

One of the students asked about different sized people. When he described this, he was standing by a white board, and the rest of us were either kneeling or sitting cross legged around him.

He asked the student if we were the same, or if we were different. The student said "different". He then gently grabbed the student's left bicep and pulled it outward.

He then went to the next student and pulled his left bicep outward. And the next, and the next. "You're all moving the same way" he commented. If I pull on your arm in this fashion, you're all going to shift to the left. Universal design.

He then went on....our limbs are all in the same place, organs in the same place, ribs in the same place...universal design.

I agree with you David...having a tiny teen go up against a big dude, isn't a matter of knowing different ways to block, its knowing when to block the proper way and when to...not block and take another tactic instead (such as parrying and getting off centerline.)