Making someone bend over

[Cornfed]

I have a couple of practical questions. If you want to apply various armlocks from a straight-arm position or force someone down on his face, the tricky part is making him bend over. How do you do this? The obvious answer is to strike him, but is there another way?

On a related not, is it possible to apply a wrist lock on a strong person who is resisting? Mostly it would seem not, although I once trained with people who transport prisoners for a living and they could do it, suggesting it is a matter of practice.

 

[frank raud]

I have a couple of practical questions. If you want to apply various armlocks from a straight-arm position or force someone down on his face, the tricky part is making him bend over. How do you do this? The obvious answer is to strike him, but is there another way?

On a related not, is it possible to apply a wrist lock on a strong person who is resisting? Mostly it would seem not, although I once trained with people who transport prisoners for a living and they could do it, suggesting it is a matter of practice.

Waki gatame.

 

[Cornfed]

Waki gatame.

Yes, that is a technique where you need them to bend over. The problem is that if you don't catch them by surprise they can generally resist from an upright stance.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yes, that is a technique where you need them to bend over. The problem is that if you don't catch them by surprise they can generally resist from an upright stance.

Specifically with waki gatame if you applied it right there shouldn't be too much they can do resistance wise, unless they start resisting before you even get into position. Which is true of pretty much any throw or takedown-if they know what you're aiming for before you start doing it, and you do it anyway, it probably won't work.

If you do need extra support for whatever reason though, or are doing a technique easier to resist, a typical idea is to perform something (say an elbow lock) aimed to force them to fall on their back, rather than their front. Then feel for when the resistance starts, and in that moment move your feet to the side and switch to one that forces them down on their face. If you do it quick enough, they're still putting on the pressure to resist the first lock/bar/etc., so they'll actually be helping you get the second one.

A leg trip being added can also be nice, depending on the end throw

 

[Cornfed]

a typical idea is to perform something (say an elbow lock) aimed to force them to fall on their back, rather than their front. Then feel for when the resistance starts, and in that moment move your feet to the side and switch to one that forces them down on their face. If you do it quick enough, they're still putting on the pressure to resist the first lock/bar/etc., so they'll actually be helping you get the second one.

I'll try that.

 

[frank raud]

Yes, that is a technique where you need them to bend over. The problem is that if you don't catch them by surprise they can generally resist from an upright stance.

Are you suggesting it is possible to resist or counter a technique if you see it coming? This could change my whole game plan!

 

[Jared Traveler]

Effective standing joint manipulation applied by someone without a lot of experience is more of an opportunist technique. Not something you are likely to do reliability or consistently. In fact I believe this largely to be true even with those who have a lot of experience.

They simply are not high percentage techniques. When the opportunity is there take it, it can be forced, but often goes wrong.

If you want to reliability get someone face down control them with wrestling and jujitsu, then use the "gift wrap" technique. Works great.

 

[frank raud]

Yes, that is a technique where you need them to bend over. The problem is that if you don't catch them by surprise they can generally resist from an upright stance.

Attempting to apply a joint lock with the benefit of surprise, or the gentle softening touch of punching them in the floating ribs first is generally a recipe for disaster.

 

[frank raud]

I have a couple of practical questions. If you want to apply various armlocks from a straight-arm position or force someone down on his face, the tricky part is making him bend over. How do you do this? The obvious answer is to strike him, but is there another way?

On a related not, is it possible to apply a wrist lock on a strong person who is resisting? Mostly it would seem not, although I once trained with people who transport prisoners for a living and they could do it, suggesting it is a matter of practice.

Is this a self defense situation? Grab his wrist with your outside hand, move it away from his body. Throw your inside arm over his extended arm, lean against him and kick your foot out. You will drop to the ground, he will faceplant before you get there, and his body will help soften your landing.

 

[Cornfed]

Effective standing joint manipulation applied by someone without a lot of experience is more of an opportunist technique. Not something you are likely to do reliability or consistently. In fact I believe this largely to be true even with those who have a lot of experience.

What would you suggest for, say, throwing someone out of a place? I don't think there are that many good alternatives. BTW, I know these techniques can work - you just often need to strike the person first.

 

[Cornfed]

Is this a self defense situation? Grab his wrist with your outside hand, move it away from his body. Throw your inside arm over his extended arm, lean against him and kick your foot out. You will drop to the ground, he will faceplant before you get there, and his body will help soften your landing.

That often works, but it would be good to have a plan B if the person manages to tense up in time. It seems to be easy to resist from a straight standing position.

 

[Jared Traveler]

What would you suggest for, say, throwing someone out of a place? I don't think there are that many good alternatives. BTW, I know these techniques can work - you just often need to strike the person first.

I actually largely disagree with the traditional thinking that to use them effectively, you should strike first.

As I said, in my opinion these are best used in an opportunist manner (you can look for these opportunities, but they can be hard to reliably create opportunities).

When I think "Armlock" or "Wrist lock" the opportunity is there and now, I need to take it instantly. So the last thing I'm going to do is strike someone to try and set it up. Because when I do that the situation changes and that moment in time is lost.

I don't believe striking is the path to more reliability nailing joint manipulation techniques in real events. Just my opinion.

 

[frank raud]

That often works, but it would be good to have a plan B if the person manages to tense up in time. It seems to be easy to resist from a straight standing position.

Hit him in the face as your inside hand is going over his arm. Surprise, distraction. Pick one (or both).

 

[Jared Traveler]

I have said it before in previous posts, but I will say it again. I believe a failed joint lock takedown or control attempt should not be followed up with another joint lock attempt.

Attempt the joint lock, if it fails, go for a judo type (center mass) takedown, where Kuzushi can be applied. Or attempt the joint lock, if it fails, land a solid strike.

 

[frank raud]

I actually largely disagree with the traditional thinking that to use them effectively, you should strike first.

As I said, in my opinion these are best used in an opportunist manner (you can look for these opportunities, but they can be hard to reliably create opportunities).

When I think "Armlock" or "Wrist lock" the opportunity is there and now. So the last thing I'm going to do is strike someone to try and set it up. Because when I do that the situation changes and that moment in time is lost.

I don't believe striking is the path to more reliability nailing joint manipulation techniques in real events. Just my opinion.

In the jiu jitsu style I learned, we were taught "blow, throw, blow". Kawaishi phrased it as "atemi, counter, atemi". If you don't have the luxury of offbalancing someone via kuzushi, striking makes a wonderful substitute.

 

[Jared Traveler]

In the jiu jitsu style I learned, we were taught "blow, throw, blow". Kawaishi phrased it as "atemi, counter, atemi". If you don't have the luxury of offbalancing someone via kuzushi, striking makes a wonderful substitute.

That's not bad thinking at all. It is just in my experience striking first has several draw backs. One is I question the effectiveness of it setting up joint locks, it's more likely to spoil a joint lock opportunity in my book.

Also joint locks are typically applied in situations where I don't want to strike the person if I don't have to. Because they haven't reached a level where I'm ready to hit them. If I was, I would just effectively employ strikes.

 

[Jared Traveler]

In my opinion fighting is problem solving, and you need to be committed to solving problems, instead of applying certain techniques. The other guy gets a vote on his level of resistance and the application of technique that I need to use to control or end the threat.

In other words, wrist locks are not going to work on everyone, all the time, under any circumstances. At times it will be foolish to try it at all. That's okay. It doesn't mean they are bad. But you have to solve the problem, no matter if it is solved with a joint lock, a hip throw, a leg sweep, or a strike. Same, same.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I think the magic of striking first, then joint lock, is "good cover" for instructors, to get around the fact that joint locks are often low percentage. If gives the student a false since if confidence and glosses over the ineffectiveness of the technique, buy building false expectations.

Joint locks have their place, but expectations should be realistic.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[Cornfed]

I think the magic of striking first, then joint lock, is "good cover" for instructors, to get around the fact that joint locks are often low percentage. If gives the student a false since if confidence and glosses over the ineffectiveness of the technique, buy building false expectations.

Joint locks have their place, but expectations should be realistic.

Again, just my opinion.

What should the instructors do instead? It is generally useful to give a few options to students that generally work in the situations they will encounter, say if you are training them to be on a security team.

 

[Jared Traveler]

What should the instructors do instead? It is generally useful to give a few options to students that generally work in the situations they will encounter, say if you are training them to be on a security team.

All fighting is problem solving, all problem solving takes context. All techniques and tactics take context. I don't care if you are talking about selecting CQB room clearing tactics, preparing effectively to travel safely to a foreign country, or selecting a martial arts technique, context is important.

What is the context where wristlocks and joint manipulation to control position are typically effective? Often situations security people find themselves in vs self-defense situations.

Typically they are when someone is "being a problem" to the point physical control is necessary or at least reasonable. AND the person is unaware of what is about to happen (even if it should be obvious to an intelligent or sobber person). Sometimes you even tell them you are going to take them down and it doesn't register in their minds, weird but not uncommon. Boom you nail it. He is restrained without injury, nobody gets hurt. Beautiful.

But it's not effective in many other situations, and your chances deteriorate quickly once the element of surprise is lost.