MA Marketing Tool: Religion

[Steve]

Lots of seemingly unrelated things get combined in daily life and we never take notice. George Foreman and grills. Grocery stores and banks. Grocery stores and video rentals. Grocery stores and pharmacies.

The one major difference is that the things you're mentioning don't imply integrity, morality or a sense of trustworthiness. I don't have any problem with people selling an eclectic list of products. The point I'm making is that it's noteworthy when someone uses religion to add credibility to their business by tying themselves to a moral institution. The implicit statement is, "You can trust me, because I'm a christian." I am not saying that christians are untrustworthy, or that all christian businesses are scams. I am suggesting that the more blatant and pronounced this statement is made, the less likely it is to be true.

McDonalds and healthy food. Oprah and weight loss. Those last two are two of the most popular things in the country. We all know that inspite of their claims, McDonalds is unhealthy and Oprah's been battling weight loss for decades. Yet, nearly all of us in the states still go to McDonalds and plenty of people pay attention to Oprah's diets, never mind the fact that she's consistently proven to lack competence in this area. Are we suspicious of McDonalds or Oprah? Not generally.

I would say that this is a lapse of credibility. I can only say that I don't understand why someone would go to McD's for healthy food, but they're probably the same people who would trust "Steve the Christian Auto Mechanic (did I mention I would never overcharge you because I'm a Christian?)"

Being a school teacher provides a veneer of respectability. It just isn't religious. It puts the predator where their intended victims are and in a position where intended victims are more likely to listen and obey. There are Christian schools, which teach the same math, english, and US history that their secular counterparts do, with varying degrees of theology. How is that different than a martial arts school vs. a Christian martial arts school? Predators end up in both the Christian and the non-Christian, so having "Christian" on the label should neither raise nor lower one's suspicions in that area. That was the point I was making.

There is no difference. Again, I'm not saying all Christian martial arts schools are bad. I'm saying that it is likely used as a sales tool, and the more prominently the school features the religion, the more likely they are to be compensating or hiding a lack of substance in some other area. Whether that's quality, integrity or whatever.

So, in this instance, it isn't the idea that the uniforms have fish patches but that there's a degree of preaching going on. We have several auto repair places that advertise as being Christian run businesses, and to my knowledge, they don't offer a sermon while you wait, so I think that I see the distinction you're drawing.

Kind of. I'm saying what I said above. What I'm saying is that, if you go into a martial arts school and receive a sermon, you aren't receiving martial arts training. The sermon is a smoke screen for a LACK of actual training. The more the religion is emphasized, the more likely it is that this is intentionally obscuring the lack of training for some reason. Once again, this can be for a lot of reasons, but none of them are good, in my opinion and experience. I've seen things that range from gross incompetence to hiding past felony convictions for child molestation.

I don't think that is used to mask incompetence most of the time. The issue that I run into is that the person is sometimes more qualified in their theology than they are in their craft. Like a youth minister who decides that karate is a good idea, so he starts teaching it. After all, he has a red belt from when he took classes at the 'Y'.

I can almost guarantee you that, when religion is used prominently, it's a specific business related decision. Whether that's to hide a lack of competence, business acumen, integrity or whatever... it's used specifically to distract you as the customer from a lack of something else.

Once again, I hope that I don't come accross as picking at you.

Daniel

Come on, Daniel. Like that's a problem.

I think you'd be more likely to see an historical connection in sword schools, as historically, European knighthood and warrior culture was very much intertwined with the church of the day.

Daniel

Were someone to start a school where you learn about the Knights Templar, including martial and cultural lessons, I think that's great. Makes perfect sense. Not my cup of tea, but there you go.

Here's a general question: how would people veiw a school where in place of a shinto shrine you had a Christian shrine that was bowed to? The classes had a period of meditation, then got into technique, closed with meditation, then bowing out, including bowing to the shrine. No sermons or prayer time except that which individuals may choose to do during meditation.

How would that be perceived?

Daniel

I think it's about relevance. I said earlier that if I'm studying Shaolin Gung Fu, I would expect some monkeying about (hehe.) We mentioned a knights Templar. Sure, they may do some of that. Otherwise, I wouldn't and wouldn't expect to. Were I to go into my BJJ school and be expected to bow to a shrine, a cross, a bust of Helio's head, I'd wonder what the heck is going on. Once again, I wouldn't assume the worst, but I would definitely be suspicious.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I wasn't thinking of the knights templar, but they would be included. I was actually thinking of the range from Charlemagne all the way through the late ninteenth century - early twentieth when the church still had a fairly prominent role in the lives of many and dueling with swords was still an occurrance.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I can almost guarantee you that, when religion is used prominently, it's a specific business related decision. Whether that's to hide a lack of competence, business acumen, integrity or whatever... it's used specifically to distract you as the customer from a lack of something else.

I think that most often, it is to make up for a lack of business accumen, rather than hide it. I have known several well meaning people who have gone into business ventures that they should have stayed well away from due to lack of relevent skills.

These were Christian themed ventures and each and every one of them truly believed that "The Lord will bless my business because I am honoring Him."

Needless to say, each and every one of them failed, some more dramatically than others in direct scale to the ambitiousness of the project.

One fella was "blessed" with way more business than he could handle and the quality of his work suffered because of it. Initially, he did quite well.

Another was a lady who did Amway and would only deal with other Christians.... period. There was a hardness and suspicion that she carried about her everywhere she went. Suspicious that the person she was talking to might be one of those crafty nonbelievers. Needless to say, she turned off more people, both Christian and non (nobody wants to buy or work with a sourpuss). The fact that it was Amway was its own set of issues.

Another fella just up and decided that he was being "called" to be something that required accounting skills. He swore that the "Lord will grant me what I need to weather the trial" and quoted me scripture passage about the Lord not placing any burden upon us that is beyond our means to handle. Unfortunately, that passage does not include self imposed burdens that we take on without preparation, and needless to say, his lack of accounting skill was his downfall.

On the other hand, I know of a very successful Christian who ran a speed shop (speed for cars, not the drug) He eventually sold the business and (I heard) went into missionary work, living off of the money he'd made. The only hint that he was specifically Christian was that he had fliers from his church included in all the other automotive related fliers that were on his bulletin board. I can say that as a customer, I found his shop to be top notch. He also didn't set out to run a "Christian speed shop" and had a lengthy background in racing and mechanics long before he purchassed the business.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

I think that most often, it is to make up for a lack of business accumen, rather than hide it. I have known several well meaning people who have gone into business ventures that they should have stayed well away from due to lack of relevent skills.

These were Christian themed ventures and each and every one of them truly believed that "The Lord will bless my business because I am honoring Him."

Needless to say, each and every one of them failed, some more dramatically than others in direct scale to the ambitiousness of the project.

One fella was "blessed" with way more business than he could handle and the quality of his work suffered because of it. Initially, he did quite well.

Another was a lady who did Amway and would only deal with other Christians.... period. There was a hardness and suspicion that she carried about her everywhere she went. Suspicious that the person she was talking to might be one of those crafty nonbelievers. Needless to say, she turned off more people, both Christian and non (nobody wants to buy or work with a sourpuss). The fact that it was Amway was its own set of issues.

Another fella just up and decided that he was being "called" to be something that required accounting skills. He swore that the "Lord will grant me what I need to weather the trial" and quoted me scripture passage about the Lord not placing any burden upon us that is beyond our means to handle. Unfortunately, that passage does not include self imposed burdens that we take on without preparation, and needless to say, his lack of accounting skill was his downfall.

On the other hand, I know of a very successful Christian who ran a speed shop (speed for cars, not the drug) He eventually sold the business and (I heard) went into missionary work, living off of the money he'd made. The only hint that he was specifically Christian was that he had fliers from his church included in all the other automotive related fliers that were on his bulletin board. I can say that as a customer, I found his shop to be top notch. He also didn't set out to run a "Christian speed shop" and had a lengthy background in racing and mechanics long before he purchassed the business.

Daniel

Daniel, you see that every example you mention supports my point?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well yes; I was agreeing with you regarding the business accumen.

But in none of the examples were any of the people suspicious in any way. In the first example, it wasn't really a matter of incompetence in his craft (he was a 'landscaper' who's primary job was cutting lawns); in fact he was quite good. Unfortunately, he just didn't know how to turn down customers or when it was time to expand his staff. A common failure of small businesses is that they grow too fast for the owner to effectively manage.

The other two, one had interpersonal issues and the other was an idiot.

Perhaps the word suspicious is the rub for me. When you say suspicious, I think of possible criminal background or intent to con.

Most people who start a Christian themed business simply want to honor God in their work, nothing more. I don't see them as actively using religion to mask shortcomings. Though it can certainly have that effect, that is usually not the intent. There is a chain of book stores (Family Christian Stores) that I go to for religious items. They have never been late with a special order, know where everything in the store is, have fair return policies, and a very good selection of Christian books, DVDs, and gifts. Certainly, the "Christian" is the primary theme of the business; there are no secular products, but they do their job very well.

"Christian" in the billing of a martial arts school doesn't faze me one bit. Nor would "Jewish" "Wiccan" or even "scientologist".

But a non religious school who's master has multiple dan ranks of higher than 8, looks no older than me, a raft of schoolage and kindergarten blackbelts, and literature with dubious claims (taekwondo is 4000 years old, we develop your deadly chi, Korean ninjas, our art is deadlier than whatever) and or leet speak, attachments to George Dilman, Ashida Kim, or other questionable figures, more than ten colored belts between white and black, and a floor full of students who look like their suffering from seisures and instructors who look lost?

Now that makes me suspicious.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

Well yes; I was agreeing with you regarding the business accumen.

But in none of the examples were any of the people suspicious in any way. In the first example, it wasn't really a matter of incompetence in his craft (he was a 'landscaper' who's primary job was cutting lawns); in fact he was quite good. Unfortunately, he just didn't know how to turn down customers or when it was time to expand his staff. A common failure of small businesses is that they grow too fast for the owner to effectively manage.

The other two, one had interpersonal issues and the other was an idiot.

Perhaps the word suspicious is the rub for me. When you say suspicious, I think of possible criminal background or intent to con.

Most people who start a Christian themed business simply want to honor God in their work, nothing more. I don't see them as actively using religion to mask shortcomings. Though it can certainly have that effect, that is usually not the intent. There is a chain of book stores (Family Christian Stores) that I go to for religious items. They have never been late with a special order, know where everything in the store is, have fair return policies, and a very good selection of Christian books, DVDs, and gifts. Certainly, the "Christian" is the primary theme of the business; there are no secular products, but they do their job very well.

"Christian" in the billing of a martial arts school doesn't faze me one bit. Nor would "Jewish" "Wiccan" or even "scientologist".

But a non religious school who's master has multiple dan ranks of higher than 8, looks no older than me, a raft of schoolage and kindergarten blackbelts, and literature with dubious claims (taekwondo is 4000 years old, we develop your deadly chi, Korean ninjas, our art is deadlier than whatever) and or leet speak, attachments to George Dilman, Ashida Kim, or other questionable figures, more than ten colored belts between white and black, and a floor full of students who look like their suffering from seisures and instructors who look lost?

Now that makes me suspicious.

Daniel

Fair enough. There are many things that will arouse my suspicion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Oh yes, advertisements that read, "Fighting style of the Dark Knight" make me think less than positive too.

Incidentally, I wanted to comment on MT for a moment. On most other boards on the internet, this sort of discussion would have degenerated into flames and personal attacks by the second page. Kudos to all for a healthy and intelligent discussion!

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's a question for those who identify as Christians: would you ever consider training in Islamic Longfist, if a good teacher were nearby?

Islamic Longfist is an art practiced by those in regions of China where many of the people had converted to Islam. Having never studied it, I have no idea if any Islamic teachings are worked into the training, altho my suspicion would have me guess at "no".

Really, I suspect the art itself has nothing to do with Islam. Rather, it would be a regional style that just happens to be in a heavily Islamic region of Ethnic Chinese.

But given the prominence of Islam in the very name of the art, would Christians (or others) be willing to study it?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes.

If I had good reason to believe that the instruction was good and that the teaching staff was qualified, I'd visit a school and try to get a feel for if the art itself were something that I would either want to do or felt capable of doing (I'm not very acrobatic, so XMA-is stuff is out for me, no matter how cool it may be).

Edit: I would expect a martial arts class. A little Islamic wisdom is fine, but if forty five minutes of an hour to two hour class is a sermon, then I would not be interested. I'd feel the same way about a Christian school as well. Anti-American propaganda or other political propaganda would also be an instant turn off. Once again, that would apply to a Christian school as well.

No different than studying Shaolin Kung Fu, which also has a Buddhist connotation.

Point of fact, I'd even consider a traditional school teaching martial arts, armed or unarmed, associated with traditionally Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Morocco, or Saudi Arabia.

Daniel

 

[Aiki Lee]

I agree with daniel. I would study the system so long as they did not force their beliefs on me, but I would not mind if they openly talked about it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Here's a question for those who identify as Christians: would you ever consider training in Islamic Longfist, if a good teacher were nearby?

Islamic Longfist is an art practiced by those in regions of China where many of the people had converted to Islam. Having never studied it, I have no idea if any Islamic teachings are worked into the training, altho my suspicion would have me guess at "no".

Really, I suspect the art itself has nothing to do with Islam. Rather, it would be a regional style that just happens to be in a heavily Islamic region of Ethnic Chinese.

But given the prominence of Islam in the very name of the art, would Christians (or others) be willing to study it?

Good question and there are a few CMA styles in the Islamic Catagory Xingyiquan being one of them and as far as I know it is about as Islamic in its teaching as any Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi class in China is Taoist in its teaching.

 

[bowser666]

Personally I think people should lighten up with this topic. I personally do not follow any religion but I do know that people should have the freedom and the right to do what they want in terms of their religious practices. If it happens to cross over into MA then so be it. Its freedom of expression, just like you have the freedom to say, I don't want to hear this, and walk out.


Personally I would be more concerned with people like our former President mixing religion with Government and anyone else that wants to do the same. Anyone remember GDUB's comments about going to Iraq as a Crusade ? and other various religious references ? Scary stuff, but that is another altogether different topic. My point is that there are far more dangerous places that religion is getting mixed into that we should be worried about rather than your average neighborhood McDojo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Likewise, I think that there are far more dangerous things in martial arts, such as students leaving a school with a blackbelt, truly believing that they have the tools to defend themselves when in reality, the teacher just took a ton of their money and taught them useless filler.

Or some of what Terry has mentioned regarding instructors taking a large sum for a Kukkiwon dan test, pocketing the money, and giving the student what amounts to a house belt, but telling them that they're KKW certified.

Then there are the hundreds of dubious self study courses: become a ninja in your bedroom! Wow. And yes, I saw an ad that said essentially that within the past six months.

Daniel