MA Marketing Tool: Religion

[Aiki Lee]

An anonymous coward is angry that I'm not "more respectful". .

What a rude and arrogant statement. What have I done to be labeled cowardly? I don't care what you believe, but you shouldn't attack people who don't agree with you.

Sorry friend, but that's the unvarnished truth as I see it after over thirty years in this game. .

You meam your personal biased opinion. If you've had the bad luck to run into some hypocrits then you are right about those people, but do not lump them togther with other people who have religious beliefs.

Using your religion to market your martial art is whoring out your religion for money. .

Most Christian or other religious martial arts groups aren't commercial schools. I've never seen one that was. There is nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs with others as long as you don't push them on other people. And since most people are turned off by religion, it would be a poor marketing strategy to uses that as a marketing tool.

Using your status in a martial arts class to preach to the unconverted is a boundary violation and a pretty serious one at that. .

It is only a boundary violation if there is no reason to assume you have joined a religious organization. If the MA group makes no suggestion that they are a religious group, then I would agree with your statement, but if they are up front about it there is no problem. If you don't like the message find a new teacher.

People who use their faith to sell merchandise show no respect whatsoever to the Almighty, the Sacred or whatever you want to call it. In return they deserve none from those who respect Faith..

I don't know how one can possibly use their faith to sell something. A devout religious person who teaches martial arts would perhaps talk about his beliefs and try to share them because he or she would believe that their religion should be a part of everything; it's not about making money. If it was about money it would be unethical by their own standards. So a good Christian or Muslim or Jewish or whatever martial artists wouldn't be selling their religion they would be selling their their skill sets and teaching abilities just like any other MA teacher. The religion you get for free, and if you don't like it, leave.

People who use their authority to pressure others into conversion are abusing the trust of their students. They have violated a trust and, as such, do not deserve respect from their peers - that would be me as a martial arts teacher - or from decent folk in general.

I agree with you here. They shouldn't pressure others into believing it, but there isn't anything wrong with sharing your thoughts with a person who is open minded. If somone doesn't want to discuss it then they shouldn't discuss it.

So I am showing these guys exactly as much respect as they deserve, no more, no less. And it's a tad bit more than they are willing to extend either to their G-d or to their students.

I'd understand if you were directing this towards people who are abusing their position, but you seem to be extending it towards all MA teachers who use their religion as an ethical guidline in their dojo, or to any teacher that shares his or her religious thoughts with a student, so I view your post as an attack on religious ma teachers in general which is disrespectful and filled with uneducated assumptions.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One consensus here and on another thread about a school shifting to a religious bent seems to be that if the school starts out as a non-religious entity that it should remain so.

I would agree with that; it is unfair to shift gears on students in that fashion, particularly if they're paying dues, and even moreso if you have them in a contract.

If the school owner decides that he wants to offer a religiously oriented MA class, in a non religious school, make it a separate and optional offering. And do so without having the option creep into the regular classes. Your non religious students will respect you and your religious students can partake of the offering if they so choose.

Regarding religion and dojos in general, it seems to come in two flavors:

1. Arts with an historic connection to a specific religion.
2. Specifically Christian martial arts.

I haven't seen a proliferation of specifically religious MA schools outside of Christianity. Doesn't mean that they aren't out there, but I don't see them.

Most "Christian MA dojos" that I have seen are attached to a church and are up front about what they are, so the whole bait and switch thing isn't really an issue. They also are ususally not 'for profit', only charging enough to cover expense or operating on a donation basis. If you go into a school that is located on church grounds, you have no business complainng when class opens with a prayer.

I do think that the Christian MA school serves two specific groups.

One group are the hard core Christians who view non Christians martial arts schools as a gateway to eastern religions, but who still want to learn a martial art.

The other are people who simply want to be in, or their kids to be in a school that has values aligned with their own.

Such schools work well for those two groups, are okay with those who don't care one way or the other but happen to like the teacher, and not so well with others.

I don't see why anyone is offended by the idea. I am not offended by the idea of a Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, or even a specifically atheist dojo. I haven't seen any, but the idea or actual existence of any of the above does not offend me in the least. And there are certainly schools that have a religious aspect, be it Shito or Buddhist, or another eastern religion. I am not offended in the least by the existence such schools.

I have visited schools that have shrines and such and actually thought that it was pretty cool. I'm secure enough in my own beliefs that I'm fine being in an environment where different beliefs are expressed.

Having said all that, the quality of the teaching is the primary importance. If a youth minister isn't qualified to teach karate and has no access to anyone who is, then he shouldn't start a karate class, no matter how well intentioned or how demand there seems to be.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why do it?

Here are the usual reasons. They are all bad.

• Marketing your martial art. If you announce your faith loudly you will get your co-religionists to choose your school over the competition.
• Marketing your religion. Students are inclined to listen to and obey or at least sit respectfully still when the guy in the funny suit talks. This allows you to preach with a somewhat captive audience.
• You believe that effective practice of your martial art requires a particular religious orientation. Students will not be able to punch and kick correctly unless they believe in exactly the same Invisible Sky Friend as you.

The first whores out your religion to benefit your business. The second takes advantage of your students' good nature to manipulate their private spiritual beliefs in the time-honored fashion of the Amway salesman. The third is either a lie or involves some very esoteric and uncommon practices that are definitely not for beginners or indeed for most.

What about people who just want to share in an activity with others of the same belief?

How about those who are aware that there are people who will specifically not train at a non-Christian school? If the instructor is qualified, what is the harm in addressing this market?

I can't speak for other parts of the country, but all of the Christian MA schools that are in my area are non profit and run in church buildings, so I can't really say that they're whoring out their faith, though I have seen a fair amount of that in my area outside of MA.

Personally, I find that there's enough disagreement between denominations regarding what is acceptably "Christian" that I'd be very hesitant to embark on a commercial dojo of a Christian bent outside of a church setting. Too many potential problems. And I am fairly religious, so to speak.

Daniel

 

[just2kicku]

Wow lots of good posts here. Seems like anytime reiligion is the center of discussion, it can get quite heated at times.

Since there's really no easy way to skirt around it, I would have to say that I don't think religion should be any part of a MA school. To call a school a Christian school, to me, is kinda hypocritical. I just can't see teaching peace and harmony on one hand and how to bust someone up on the other.

Just my two cents, I do think that people have the right to believe however they want. That's what makes this country great.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Believe it or not, I could find quite a bit of Biblical support for the idea of believers practicing a martial art. A lot more than I can for the notion of a Christian banker. In fact, banking runs counter to the command not to loan money and charge interest.

Realistically, 90% of those who sign up for a martial art do so for fitness, daycare purposes, sport/competition, or just because they thought it would be cool. Most arts council against picking fights.

In fact, the tenets of most martial arts align pretty well with doctrines for living in several religions, including Christianity.

Daniel

 

[blindsage]

Where I live there is a MA school specifically called the Taoist Studies Institute. They teach internal CMA (Tai chi, and Bagua), Qigong, Taoist meditation, and Taoist studies. Do those of you saying religion should always be seperate from MA have a problem with this? Or is your issue specifically with Christian MA schools? I don't necessarily have a problem with Christian MA groups or schools, except when they are created for the reason the above poster stated, that people fear they'll be converted to some Eastern religion. To me this is strictly prejudice and ignorance. Some martial arts require meditation to do practice them correctly, if you eliminate this you are removing an integral part of it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Where I live there is a MA school specifically called the Taoist studies institute. The teach internal CMA (Tai chi, and Bagua), Qigong, Taoist meditation, and Taoist studies. Do those of you saying religion should always be seperate from MA have a problem with this? Or is your issue specifically with Christian MA schools?

Seems to be just Christian schools. Everyone couches it in general terms, but as soon as the specific faith is named, it seems to Christian 100% of the time, and not just on this thread or on this board.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous. Who cares? If you don't want to train in a Christian themed gym, don't join.

It isn't as if there's nothing else, and if there are no schools and the only ones proactive enough to do anything about it was the church crowd, then who's fault is that?

The only time anyone has a legitimate beef with the notion of a Christian (or any religion) dojo is if a secular dojo that they attend morphs into a religious entity.

I don't necessarily have a problem with Christian MA groups or schools, except when they are created for the reason the above poster stated, that people fear they'll be converted to some Eastern religion. To me this is strictly prejudice and ignorance.

How about the reverse: people who refuse to train in a Christian school? How is that any better? The fear is the same: that a religion different than your own will be pushed on you.

I don't personally mind the ones that attract the "My religion only" crowd.

Gives those folks a place to go. Everyone has fears that are unfounded. Some people think that they'll turn gay if they listen to Elton John. Plenty of guy/gal love songs out there for them. Usually, such fears are more a reflection of insecurity than anything else.

Some martial arts require meditation to do practice them correctly, if you eliminate this you are removing an integral part of it.

I see that as being connected to one's qualifications to teach the art.

If an art requires meditation and the teacher purposefully omits any meditation, that seems more like a lack of fully understanding the art, as being Christian does not preclude meditation by any means.

Meditation is not usually considered bad in and of itself in Christianity; it is the object of one's meditation. Most religions have enough similar concepts anyway, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Correct me if I am wrong, but arts that require some sort of meditation do not require meditation directly on a religious figure.

In any case, if a potential school seems to omit a part that you feel is an important part of the art, then I wouldn't practice there.

Pretty much all taekwondo schools omit Boon Hae (bunkai), so the practice of omitting vital parts of an art is actually more of an issue fully understanding the art than of religion.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm sorry, but that's my opinion. As a class 3 sexual predator has just this weekend been outed, having hidden behind a nickname and a christian martial arts organization, I stand by it.

Not a valid arguement.

Predators hide behind anything that gives them the appearance of respectability and access to their intended victims. More predators have been outed from non-religious MA schools than religious ones. This is law of averages: there are more non religious MA schools than religious ones.

How about public schools? One need only watch the news to see cases of teachers hooking up with underaged students in secular schools. This does not provide a valid arguement for religion in schools, though.

My opinion is that the two are completely disconnected... who would open a Christian espresso stand? I've never seen nor heard of such a thing, and I'm not surprised. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Damascus Maryland, 1999. It was called Lion and Lamb Coffee house. Yes, the coffee was very, very good. No, it is no longer in business.

Similarly, martial arts and religion are unrelated. There is no point nor purpose in combining the two. So, when I do see it, I am distrustful. This would be true even were I a practicing xtian, buddhist or whatever.

I can kind of see this, though not for the reason you state; I can see some good reasons for combining the two and don't consider them to be entirely unrelated, for reasons I'll state below.

The biggest problem that I have with "Christian businesses" in general is that everything that the business does is either praised or condemned in that light. Any perceived mistake is proof of them being either not Christian enough for a disgruntled Christian customer or as evidence of Christians in general not practicing what they preach to a non Christian customer.

Personally, I find it very difficult to get an objective review of a Christian business of any sort, as those who have a bad experience seem to go off on huge rants or a quick sarcatic comment about the religion, or give unnaturally glowing reviews, with Jesus blessing the business mentioned at the end of every sentence.

The only way for me to get an objective review is to simply go and see for myself. I've seen some wonderful Christian businesses and some that leave me shaking my head. Same with secular business. But I don't consider the quality or lack there of to be a result of the faith of the staff, but rather their competency to do their job.

This is the one reason that I would personally not want to run a "Christian dojo" outside of a church setting. The other is that I don't feel the need to be overt about my faith in such a way, but hey, that's me.

Hold your religious beliefs, by all means. I have no beef with that. But predators and charlatans use religion as a shield to obfuscate their nefarious intent. I am not distrustful of people who are religious. I am immediately distrustful of people who use religion prominently in situations where it is irrelevant.

I addressed the issue of predators in my first paragraph. It is the last sentence that I'd like to comment on.

There is a strong theme in the Bible of glorifying God in all things and at all times. Running your school would fall under that category. Personally, themng my school in a religious context isn't how I'd go about doing it, but for some, that is the best way that they see to follow this.

Sorry if I seem to be jumping on you; that is not my intent, so I hope that I don't come off that way.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Where I live there is a MA school specifically called the Taoist Studies Institute. They teach internal CMA (Tai chi, and Bagua), Qigong, Taoist meditation, and Taoist studies. Do those of you saying religion should always be seperate from MA have a problem with this? Or is your issue specifically with Christian MA schools? I don't necessarily have a problem with Christian MA groups or schools, except when they are created for the reason the above poster stated, that people fear they'll be converted to some Eastern religion. To me this is strictly prejudice and ignorance. Some martial arts require meditation to do practice them correctly, if you eliminate this you are removing an integral part of it.

I might have a problem with it depending on how they run their classes.

Westerners compartmentalize things, the Chinese don't. Do you need to be Taoist to study taiji? No. Is taiji religious because it was allegedly based on the I Ching which is a Taoist book? No. It is taiji and it is a Martial art which is listed as a Neijia. But is it separate form Taoism? Nope. How could it be everything comes form the Tao.

Think about that for a bit.

 

[Steve]

Not a valid arguement.

Daniel, I disagree. I was voicing my opinion, which is that religion and martial arts are disparate to the degree that combining the two invites suspicion. And justifiably so. Combining any two things that are so different and irrelevant SHOULD invite suspicion.

Predators hide behind anything that gives them the appearance of respectability and access to their intended victims. More predators have been outed from non-religious MA schools than religious ones. This is law of averages: there are more non religious MA schools than religious ones.

Absolutely. I agree. The point that I was making, however, is that in this case, religion provides a veneer of legitimacy that is out of place. Let me put it this way, were I to run a Christian Auto Mechanics store, wouldn't you raise an eyebrow. If I said, "Welcome to Steve's auto shop, where we'll change your timing belt in the Bible Belt. Come on in and I'll tune up your car and your soul." wouldn't you be the least bit suspicious?

How about public schools? One need only watch the news to see cases of teachers hooking up with underaged students in secular schools. This does not provide a valid arguement for religion in schools, though.

Okay, Daniel. Speaking of something that's not a valid argument... providing examples of secular abuse doesn't in any way negate my point. I'm going to skip down just a little bit in your post to this part:

There is a strong theme in the Bible of glorifying God in all things and at all times. Running your school would fall under that category. Personally, themng my school in a religious context isn't how I'd go about doing it, but for some, that is the best way that they see to follow this.

I want to again clarify something. There is a big difference to me in someone putting a little fish in the window to indicate that it is a christian business and someone incorporating to a large degree christianity and prosyletizing in a major way. The first is fine. The second is conspicuous and makes my spidey sense tingle. Not criminal, necessarily, but definitely suspicious. I am immediately wondering WHY this person is featuring religion so prominently in a business that has nothing to do with religion. What is this person hiding? It's like in magic shows, where they feature one thing so that you fail to see the secret of the illusion. What is this person distracting me from by featuring their religion?

I may be Steve the Christian Auto Mechanic, but if I am encouraging you to focus on the Christian part and not the Auto Mechanic part, I am likely doing so to hide something. As I explained in a later post, I believe that this is often at least hiding a lack of quality (a lack of a bullseye, per se). I may not be a great mechanic, but attempt to use religion to mask my incompetence.

At worst, as I said, in situations like this, I am hiding more than incompetence and am attempting to con you or hide a criminal past.

Sorry if I seem to be jumping on you; that is not my intent, so I hope that I don't come off that way.

Daniel

Never worry about that.

 

[Steve]

One thing just occurred to me. If someone were teaching an actual Christian martial art, I think that makes perfect sense. By that, I mean if there is a uniquely christian art. Shaolin Gung Fu, Sikh Sin Gatka, etc.

To my knowledge, there is no christian equivalent, almost by definition. Is there?

 

[FearlessFreep]

One thing just occurred to me. If someone were teaching an actual Christian martial art, I think that makes perfect sense. By that, I mean if there is a uniquely christian art. Shaolin Gung Fu, Sikh Sin Gatka, etc.

To my knowledge, there is no christian equivalent, almost by definition. Is there?

As a Christian and a Martial Artist, I'll have to put some thought into that : ) I'm sure there isn't one by name now but I wonder if you could put some of the tenants and principles of Christianity into a self-defense style. Hmm...

 

[shihansmurf]

I don't see the issue with it as long as it is clearly stated up front that the school is a religious oriented organization. Caveat Emptor, and all that.

I personally won't train in such a place but if it gets people involved in the arts then go for it.

Sweat more, worry less.
Mark

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, I disagree. I was voicing my opinion, which is that religion and martial arts are disparate to the degree that combining the two invites suspicion. And justifiably so. Combining any two things that are so different and irrelevant SHOULD invite suspicion.

Lots of seemingly unrelated things get combined in daily life and we never take notice. George Foreman and grills. Grocery stores and banks. Grocery stores and video rentals. Grocery stores and pharmacies. McDonalds and healthy food. Oprah and weight loss. Those last two are two of the most popular things in the country. We all know that inspite of their claims, McDonalds is unhealthy and Oprah's been battling weight loss for decades. Yet, nearly all of us in the states still go to McDonalds and plenty of people pay attention to Oprah's diets, never mind the fact that she's consistently proven to lack competence in this area. Are we suspicious of McDonalds or Oprah? Not generally.

Absolutely. I agree. The point that I was making, however, is that in this case, religion provides a veneer of legitimacy that is out of place. Let me put it this way, were I to run a Christian Auto Mechanics store, wouldn't you raise an eyebrow. If I said, "Welcome to Steve's auto shop, where we'll change your timing belt in the Bible Belt. Come on in and I'll tune up your car and your soul." wouldn't you be the least bit suspicious? Okay,

Suspicious? No. Mechanics certicied by a seminary but not by the ASE? That would make me suspicious. The preaching I'd see as a gimmick.

I don't know that the setting of a garage lends itself to that anyway, as few people wait around for their car. Most often, cars are dropped off for service and picked up. But if the shop were overly preachy, I'd guarantee that the only takers are going to be those who specifically want sermons and preaching in every part of their daily lives. In some parts of the country, such a place would do well. In most metropolitan areas, probably not so much.

Daniel. Speaking of something that's not a valid argument... providing examples of secular abuse doesn't in any way negate my point.

Being a school teacher provides a veneer of respectability. It just isn't religious. It puts the predator where their intended victims are and in a position where intended victims are more likely to listen and obey. There are Christian schools, which teach the same math, english, and US history that their secular counterparts do, with varying degrees of theology. How is that different than a martial arts school vs. a Christian martial arts school? Predators end up in both the Christian and the non-Christian, so having "Christian" on the label should neither raise nor lower one's suspicions in that area. That was the point I was making.

I'm going to skip down just a little bit in your post to this part: I want to again clarify something. There is a big difference to me in someone putting a little fish in the window to indicate that it is a christian business and someone incorporating to a large degree christianity and prosyletizing in a major way. The first is fine. The second is conspicuous and makes my spidey sense tingle. Not criminal, necessarily, but definitely suspicious. I am immediately wondering WHY this person is featuring religion so prominently in a business that has nothing to do with religion. What is this person hiding? It's like in magic shows, where they feature one thing so that you fail to see the secret of the illusion. What is this person distracting me from by featuring their religion?

So, in this instance, it isn't the idea that the uniforms have fish patches but that there's a degree of preaching going on. We have several auto repair places that advertise as being Christian run businesses, and to my knowledge, they don't offer a sermon while you wait, so I think that I see the distinction you're drawing.

I may be Steve the Christian Auto Mechanic, but if I am encouraging you to focus on the Christian part and not the Auto Mechanic part, I am likely doing so to hide something. As I explained in a later post, I believe that this is often at least hiding a lack of quality (a lack of a bullseye, per se). I may not be a great mechanic, but attempt to use religion to mask my incompetence.

I don't think that is used to mask incompetence most of the time. The issue that I run into is that the person is sometimes more qualified in their theology than they are in their craft. Like a youth minister who decides that karate is a good idea, so he starts teaching it. After all, he has a red belt from when he took classes at the 'Y'.

Once again, I hope that I don't come accross as picking at you.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One thing just occurred to me. If someone were teaching an actual Christian martial art, I think that makes perfect sense. By that, I mean if there is a uniquely christian art. Shaolin Gung Fu, Sikh Sin Gatka, etc.

To my knowledge, there is no christian equivalent, almost by definition. Is there?

I think you'd be more likely to see an historical connection in sword schools, as historically, European knighthood and warrior culture was very much intertwined with the church of the day.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here's a general question: how would people veiw a school where in place of a shinto shrine you had a Christian shrine that was bowed to? The classes had a period of meditation, then got into technique, closed with meditation, then bowing out, including bowing to the shrine. No sermons or prayer time except that which individuals may choose to do during meditation.

How would that be perceived?

Daniel

 

[tshadowchaser]

Just a few thoughts:

If I want to learn a martial art I do not necessarily want to have someone preaching their religion to me at the same time,. I went to learn a martial art not someone else’s thoughts on religion.
Likewise if I go to a place of worship I go their to worship and share my idea with those who believe in similar things religiously not to learn how to kick the **** out of someone. That is unless the religion I am in believes that killing and maiming help bring people to a more holy place.

Now as for being a Christian martial art someone please show me the passage that says “ You shalt learn to destroy your enemies body by kicking, punching, and choking him”. Some how I don’t remember that being in the scriptures I read in my youth. I do remember “”love one another” and do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. And did not the early Christians die for their beliefs not kill for them?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I might have a problem with it depending on how they run their classes.

Westerners compartmentalize things, the Chinese don't. Do you need to be Taoist to study taiji? No. Is taiji religious because it was allegedly based on the I Ching which is a Taoist book? No. It is taiji and it is a Martial art which is listed as a Neijia. But is it separate form Taoism? Nope. How could it be everything comes form the Tao.

Think about that for a bit.

Sorry not into quoting myself but I see I made a rather big error here in my haste to respond that needs to be corrected

Not the I Ching but the Tao Te Ching. The I Ching is wrong for that example it should have been the Tao Te Ching (aka Te-Tao Ching)

Sorry about that :asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Before I go any further, I am not a big proponent of "Christian" ma schools. I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

Tshadowchaser, there is no injunction in the Bible against sport, which is a big part of many modern martial arts. We don't practice MA for the sole purpose of killing or busting up enemies. Some people practice karate because they can get fit without going to a gym and while wearing a garment that covers the body, rather than shorts.

When the soldiers asked Jesus what they must do to be saved, He did not tell them to lay down their arms, quit the Roman army, and live lives of peace. He told them to be satisfied with their wages and not to be bullies.

He also told his disciples at one point that it was the time to carry a sword for defense, and if they didn't have one, to go out and get one. Luke 22:35-38 "35] Then Jesus asked them,

[35]"When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.
[36] He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
[37] It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
[38] The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied."

Not to mention Jesus playing Indiana Jones in the temple.

Also, who said anything about killing for your beliefs? Defense of one's self does not require killing or necesarilly doing injury to another. The idea of Christianity is to love one another and to live peacably with those around you, not to be a doormat.

It is one thing to die for one's faith, but another to simply fall prey to being mugged for cash.

Daniel

 

[Aiki Lee]

Psalm 144:1 ESV

"Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle."

Many martial arts schools hold a degree of eastern spiritual practices within their schools. Buddhist meditations are common aren't they? From my experience they are, but I can apply these teachings and practices to my own spiritual beliefs as my teacher suggests. Sometimes we hold a seminar where we may do something I'm not cmfortable with, so I don't have to participate.

If a martial arts school has elements of western religious prctices, there could still be lessons that people of other faiths or the secular groups could get out of it. Messages like turn the other cheek can apply to anyone whether they are christian or not.

Martial arts teachers should make sure that the people he is training are good people. If we focus only on learning ways to hurt and kill people, we could quickly become horrid individuals. It is important to work on the inside in some fashion, so spiritual practices are very much in line with the martial arts and belong in them so long as they do not try to beat you over the head with it and FORCE you to believe exact what the teachers believe.