MA forums

[Xue Sheng]

PLEASE READ FIRST: I am in no way saying one forum, style or type of training is better than the other I am just wondering if we in TMA should be training more (Lord knows I should be). And I have always believed that any TMA, RBSD or Sports-MA if trained properly (and that is the key IMO “trained properly&#8221 are all very good and rather effective. ……admittedly this post may give Bob a migraine…sorry Bob, if it is an issue or becomes a mess of flame posts please make it stop, throw it in a jar, hermetically seal it and toss it into either lake Erie or Ontario…whichever is closer. I truly have no desire to start an issue or an argument I am purely basing this on amount of time training

OK once more into the breach

Since I can’t really train anything at the moment I have been surfing around the World Wide Web to see what MA forums are out there and of course I have not see every single one of them but I have noticed something based on what I have seen. It appears that most forums that deal mainly with sports MA styles (Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Sanshou, etc.) tend to be…well dead. With the exception of a Judo forum I found that appears to get a good bit of traffic. Where forums that deal with mainly TMA appear to have a lot of traffic, some more than others but much more than any strictly sports forum. There are a few MMA that have a bit of traffic as well but there it seems hard to tell who is really training as apposed to who is a fan, but then you get that same thing on TMA sites too.

I use to post on a Sanshou/Muay Thai forum that died a while back, it is still there, but for all intensive purposes it too is dead. When the traffic died a year or so ago I did ask the admin what was going on and his response was we are all to busy training to be posting, most of its main members where either in Thailand training or in the gym training for a fight.

Now this could also have a lot to do with the size of the community on these web pages (which I am pretty sure was the issue on the Sanshou page) or it could be that the sports guys are just training much more than us TMA guys, which makes me think that when I can train again I need to train a whole lot more.

Or I could be way off and it could be something else entirely or it could be I just have WAAAAAY to much time on my hands due my (injury forced) complete LACK of training at the moment that is just making me old and bitter

Any opinions or thoughts on this?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I can only speak for my perceptions here.

It seems that the more moderated a site, the lower the post count, but the higher chance you'll find solid information easily that stays on topic.

The lower the moderation level, the greater through traffic, but you have to wade through alot of random chatter and outright spam to find the solid nuggets.

I regularly monitor 20+ communities. They all are seeing drops in traffic. I think its a combination of changing interests, the economy, the rise of mega-social sites like Facebook, and core people moving on, dying, etc.

MT averages about 400 posts per day. We spiked at 1,500 back when all the game threads were in full swing, and we allowed anyone to post events. Cutting the post count killed the fun for some, and insisting that advertisers pay us well, that killed the magic. Seems people think we should be happy to eat the costs so they can make money. Nah. I like to eat and MT pays my bills. Some don't like that though.

KT averages about 40 posts per day, spiked at 250 once. FMAT's about 40 as well, spikes in the 200's on occasion.

Readership has remained strong all across though and is slowly growing. Lots of people lurking. MT averages 140,000 viewers a month (based on 2009 awstats stats) (I prefer to do raw log analysis which is more accurate but this works for a quick snapshot)

I feel the way to draw people in is to have conversations that get them involved. That requires a solid core active membership and an involved moderation team. Sites who have mods that sit around and only post to yell at you aren't doing their job. Most dead sites I've hit have that. Mods with minimal activity, only popping in to smack someone. Active sites have mods out chatting it up as well. I think that's one of the ingredients here that's kept us going when some of our competitions fallen. Course, we could always be better too.

 

[blindsage]

I don't know about all those sports MA guys, but I have a day job, and the only reason I post on here frequently is because I'm slacking at work, not because I'm posting instead of training. But I always think the 'training instead of posting' comments are BS ways of just talking **** anyway.

 

[Xinglu]

doesn't this also beg the question about how long should a training day be anyways? These Sports guys can't be training that long on top of work too. If they don't work and fighting is all they do for a living, even then, if they put in 8 hours at the gym training EVERY day, they would still have time to post.

One of the traps people fall into is training too much of one thing and neglecting the other. Sports folks in my experience tend to lean towards training the body and neglecting the intellect, whereas TMA folk tend toward the opposite, neglect of the body training of the mind. Not to say this is always the case, but there seems to be trends and if a person is going to sway one way or the other it seems to generally go that way.

Also, rest is an important part of training. Essential really, otherwise you end up with your leg up icing a knee (Sorry Xue, couldn't resist!)

I think what Bob said is more accurate regarding the lack of activity online. Compare those dips to events going on in the sports world and major game releases (yes a lot MAist I know like their Video games too!) and you might see their time being allocated elsewhere.

Good thread!

 

[Mark Lynn]

I don't know about all those sports MA guys, but I have a day job, and the only reason I post on here frequently is because I'm slacking at work, not because I'm posting instead of training. But I always think the 'training instead of posting' comments are BS ways of just talking **** anyway.

I was thinking the same thing, 90% of the time that I read the forums and or post is when I'm at work on lunch, or at home on my day off before I get going with my day.

MT at least has some traffic and posts, when I visit other forums I've noticed not as many newer or current posts.

Mark

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know about all those sports MA guys, but I have a day job, and the only reason I post on here frequently is because I'm slacking at work, not because I'm posting instead of training. But I always think the 'training instead of posting' comments are BS ways of just talking **** anyway.

yup, that's me too. We all have our coping mechanisms for dealing with the stress at work. Mine is popping in to MT and KT periodically thru the day.

 

[Flying Crane]

..or it could be that the sports guys are just training much more than us TMA guys, which makes me think that when I can train again I need to train a whole lot more.

I think TMA guys, the ones who are more hardcore, tend to be a bit tight-lipped and less inclined to discuss things with the world at large.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think TMA guys, the ones who are more hardcore, tend to be a bit tight-lipped and less inclined to discuss things with the world at large.

that is very true

And just between you. me and blindsage...most of my posting is at work as well. But of late, since I can't train, who knows when I will post.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, you can check out the Dead Parrot, but the DK section often runs quite NSFW. LOL!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I tend to believe that there are some TMA people train properly and I also am pretty sure there are a lot of TMA people that do not post on any page at all same goes for RBSD and sports people. If my knee gets better I am thinking about vanishing into the woodwork again for a bit myself to focus on other things. I also know some RBSD and sports people that have no use for posting at all... OK one RBSD person that has no use for posting. And the sports MA guy tried it for awhile but he had the same attitude about posting on an internet that Pan Qing Fu has about writing a book; "when I'm to old to train I'll do it" attitude. Could be the populations are very different too and there are just so many people to go around.

The sports forum that I use to post on that is now one of the living dead was sanshou and that was more because I was looking for a sanshou/sanda specific page. But it was still not my flavor of sanshou. I also know it was a rather small group and I truly do not doubt that they were training more than posting and likely lost interest after that. They also moved their school and combined with another to make a bigger school. But they certainly sounded like a damn serious lot when it came to training.

However I have no doubt that much of it is exactly what Bob said.

As to how long one can train a day... not as much as they use to. If I had the time to train my flavor of Yang style like it should be trained I am looking at about 3 to 4 hours a day minimum. Xingyiquan is just 1 hour of santi not including the other standing postures, forms and tuishou.

And I would venture a guess that if you go to any MA school be it TMA, RBSD or sport that there are only about 25%, on average, that are truly there for the MA and the rest are just there for a workout. Some styles will have more serious students than others. And of course there are schools that are just out to bilk their students out of money too.

I have just been killing time between scans and running programs and going around looking at the web and a lot of the forums that are mainly sports are, by comparison to MT, dead.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, you can check out the Dead Parrot, but the DK section often runs quite NSFW. LOL!

The Dead Parrot

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Xue,

I'm going to deal with the idea of "How much training should you be doing?" that you posed, asking if TMA guys should train more as sport-style guys appear to. To get to that, the first thing to look at is why the training is as it is in each form.

In a sporting system (MMA, Muay Thai, competitive karate, or any other such thing), the training is geared around competition primarily (I know, that seems obvious. But it needs to be thought about a little deeper...). When training for competition, you are training for a specific known purpose. And you are training to defeat others who are also training for that same specific purpose. You don't just need to be better than the thug on the street, you need to be better than the well-trained skilled professional in the ring with you, and he/she is training to be better than you. So the focus changes. If you know you have a fight coming up, the training often changes it's intensity as you prepare for the particular individual.

So a sporting style of training is geared towards competing with similarly trained athletes, and things such as endurance, strength, and so on are of much higher importance. But the important thing is that it is for a known quantity, and that allows the training to be intense and high demand (in fact, it requires it), as it focuses on a smaller range of environments.

In TMA systems, the training is for a far less clear situation. It is for a wider range of environments, with undefined parameters, and a wider avenue of study. The training is less geared towards competitive success as it is geared towards survival in unforseen encounters. This may appear to lend itself to less intense training, but it is really just different. Rather than training for the intensity of another person who is also trained to be better than you at the same thing, you are training to be able to handle anything that may come up. So your training can be continuous, developing your mindset and attitude, your awareness and attention to detail. Yes, the physical training can be arduous if that is your preference, but that is not actually the strength of TMA training. The strength lies in the depth and seriousness of the training.

So as a TMA practitioner, should you be training more, like a sporting system? Well, are you going to enter into a competition against someone else trained like you? If not, then I'm going to say no. However, if it is because you feel a lack in your training, I would suggest looking to the seriousness that you approach your training with. For me, I consider my training to go 24-7, as I am constantly striving to live the philosophies of my chosen system as I understand them to be. I may not be always going through the physical skills of my art, but I am always conscious of my art, and act accordingly. That means I stay aware, I stay alert, and I maintain the strength that my art gives in my spirit, whether your name for that is confidence, inner strength, courage, or whatever, it amounts to the same thing.

So in the end, train your system for the reason your system trains. That is the difference, and as always, there is no better or worse, just different. But if you want to up your tempo, hey man, go for it! I know I do things to a physical extreme at times....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think Chris summarized the differences in training very nicely. I travel in both worlds and know for a fact that there are sports martial artists that train very, very intense. I have also met TMA practitioners that are just as intense in their training. Yet there are also a lot of people training who are not that intense in their training as it is more of a hobby. I know personally that I train every day with time spent on technique, cardio and weight bearing exercises. Of course depending on how my body feels will determine which way the work outs go. Even though I teach roughly 2 to 6 hours a day and get in a private work out of a couple of hours. (depending on my body) I still have time to relax and read. You see I think of reading a book on martial sytems, going to an internet board, youtube video clips, etc. as research. It is important to be well informed and educated about every thing you can possibly come across in the martial sciences. Just my 02.

 

[Steve]

I post here regularly, as well as a couple of grappling specific forums. Those forums have lots of discussion and traffic and are doing very well.

The discussions tend to be a lot different. On the other forums, discussion tends to be centered around training, gear and technique. Not so much here, because the audience is broader based... well, that and every time a discussion of technique comes up it becomes a pissing match about who's wrong and who's right.

There isn't, as others have said, much holding back as far as technique goes, but there are a lot of variations. One of the cool things about BJJ that I like is that the style shapes itself to you. My BJJ looks different from yours because I'm physically unable to do things you can do and vice versa. So, my armbar is done slightly differently. And in these details there's a lot to talk about.

 

[xJOHNx]

I train up to 24 hours a week, don't know if that is enough...

And I still go out untill 4 in the mourning and post here

and as Brian said, reading up, researching, practicing mentally and so on, all form part of my training.
So I think I train more than 24 hours a week..

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey Xue,

I'm going to deal with the idea of "How much training should you be doing?" that you posed, asking if TMA guys should train more as sport-style guys appear to. To get to that, the first thing to look at is why the training is as it is in each form.

In a sporting system (MMA, Muay Thai, competitive karate, or any other such thing), the training is geared around competition primarily (I know, that seems obvious. But it needs to be thought about a little deeper...). When training for competition, you are training for a specific known purpose. And you are training to defeat others who are also training for that same specific purpose. You don't just need to be better than the thug on the street, you need to be better than the well-trained skilled professional in the ring with you, and he/she is training to be better than you. So the focus changes. If you know you have a fight coming up, the training often changes it's intensity as you prepare for the particular individual.

So a sporting style of training is geared towards competing with similarly trained athletes, and things such as endurance, strength, and so on are of much higher importance. But the important thing is that it is for a known quantity, and that allows the training to be intense and high demand (in fact, it requires it), as it focuses on a smaller range of environments.

In TMA systems, the training is for a far less clear situation. It is for a wider range of environments, with undefined parameters, and a wider avenue of study. The training is less geared towards competitive success as it is geared towards survival in unforseen encounters. This may appear to lend itself to less intense training, but it is really just different. Rather than training for the intensity of another person who is also trained to be better than you at the same thing, you are training to be able to handle anything that may come up. So your training can be continuous, developing your mindset and attitude, your awareness and attention to detail. Yes, the physical training can be arduous if that is your preference, but that is not actually the strength of TMA training. The strength lies in the depth and seriousness of the training.

So as a TMA practitioner, should you be training more, like a sporting system? Well, are you going to enter into a competition against someone else trained like you? If not, then I'm going to say no. However, if it is because you feel a lack in your training, I would suggest looking to the seriousness that you approach your training with. For me, I consider my training to go 24-7, as I am constantly striving to live the philosophies of my chosen system as I understand them to be. I may not be always going through the physical skills of my art, but I am always conscious of my art, and act accordingly. That means I stay aware, I stay alert, and I maintain the strength that my art gives in my spirit, whether your name for that is confidence, inner strength, courage, or whatever, it amounts to the same thing.

So in the end, train your system for the reason your system trains. That is the difference, and as always, there is no better or worse, just different. But if you want to up your tempo, hey man, go for it! I know I do things to a physical extreme at times....

My last Xingyi sifu has been on both sides of this, he started in competition and is now TMA and his view is that one is going to compete you have to face the fact that you are going to be running a minimum of 2 miles a day, likely more. In his TMA practice he no longer runs but he still trains a lot, but then that is also his business.

My Sanda sifu (non-sport) trains about 2 hours or more a day and my Taiji sifu says he feels that a minimum of 2 hours a day is required, he shoots for four. But he does realize that in today’s world having 2 too 4 solid hours is not likely so he asked me to break it up if necessary with 1 hour in the morning and 1 or more at night. My Sanda sifu wanted me to do a minimum of 100 strikes (yup more tree beating) per side per day and he wanted me to throw 300 kicks per side per day and cut me a break at 150 and really I don't know how either do it since they are both doctors. Admittedly I do not have the time in a day to do all that but that is where I am getting some of this from. I frankly do not see many TMA guys, myself included doing this. Add that to the posting stuff and I begin to wonder. But then like I said originally I could simply have way to much time on my hands due to my inability to train at the moment and I could be thinking about this way to much so take it for what it is worth

My question was not about training the same way but about dedication to training and time dedicated to training. I do realize there are different goals between the two

 

[xJOHNx]

You must also realise the fact that you cannot always go around certain things that are expected from you.

Yes, I could train more every evening. But my friends would feel left out.
Yes, I could train more in the weekends, but than the socialist youth movement I'm in might suffer from it.
yes, I could train more during the day, but than I would be skipping classes.

I could train more by being less online, but than all of the administration I have to do for the student council, school and Jinenkan would go down the gutter.

If I dedicated all my time to my art (which I love, let there be no misconception about my dedication to my art), I would certainly be better in it. But than all other aspects which make up my life would alter. And than I wouldn't be able to live with myself. Though, I do congratulate the people who can give up everything they have to train.

If I joined a sportsMA, I would probably do it as well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You must also realise the fact that you cannot always go around certain things that are expected from you.

After roughly 38 years of training, two marriages, 2 kids and countless jobs... yes, yes I do


And you know it just dawned on me after seeing what was going on here on MT and reading through this thread again that I could be doing Zhan Zhuang instead…. Catch you later.

 

[xJOHNx]

Sorry, was more of a general way of speaking
Was a bit tired when I typed that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

No worries