Logic of foot angles in sanchin dachi

[Fungus]

I have a feeling this is the right place to ask, and I think some of you experienced here maybe can answer.

I'll try to make this short, I won't try to descrive the "constructing principles" of sanchin dachi, perhaps someone else will as part of the answer, but we know this is supposed to be a robust form, but my questions concerns the specific angles, and here different styles have different stanrds.

For example my kyokushin style says both back and front feet are approximately 45 degrees inwards. I always found this to be a close to impossible, if not highly unstable position for ME. If I force myself into it, I can barely manage to stay standing, and i would be an easy pray if someone hit me. I asked my instructors about this - in class - and got no good answer, not sure if it was due to lack ot time or not having an answer.

My idea is that the constructing princoples likely prescribes a "tension" in your legs, but what angles are required for the balance in tension and still mobility, must be linked to your individual anatomy.

I find the sanchin dachi as prescribed in shotokan, where the back foot is straight,and only fron is angled to be much more logical for me.

So can someone tell me the backstory why kyokushing sanchin dachi is so extreme? The only rational answer I can imagine myself is that the person (founder) that made this up, had a very odd anantomy with inward pointing toes? Or is there a more interesting explanation?

 

[O'Malley]

Not a karate guy but here's my 0.2.

I don't think sanchin's meant as a combat stance, more like a conditioning drill. The foot angle is probably meant to train the feeling of opening and closing the kua (inguinal fold). It should also stretch the tissue and connect the body together.

Please be careful to keep your knee on the same plane as your foot and hip: the whole leg should turn so that the foot reaches that angle. A common mistake with that kind of movement is to force the foot into the inwards 45 degree angle but not the upper leg (e.g. because of a lack of mobility at the hip). This creates torque in the knee which can be damaging. It might be one of the reasons why shotokan (which evolved to be taught in schools) made the adjustment with the straight back leg (it tends to create less torque). If you feel any torque in the knee, make a more natural angle and slowly work towards more range of rotation for your whole leg.

Here's a cool video on sanchin featuring one of Oyama's top guys (there are English subtitles in the options):

 

[Gyakuto]

Tate seishan (sanchin) where the performer has rotated 90 degrees in the direction of the leading foot, is the default fighting stance for Wado Ryu Karate.

 

[Fungus]

Thanks for responding!

Not a karate guy but here's my 0.2.

I don't think sanchin's meant as a combat stance, more like a conditioning drill. The foot angle is probably meant to train the feeling of opening and closing the kua (inguinal fold). It should also stretch the tissue and connect the body together.

If we mean normal kyokushin combat, then, we have the kamae dachi stance yes, and we are also told that many stances are to strengthen legs etc (for example horse stance), but I have found that if you add say pushing and some grappling, you need to adapt, and also in a fight you sometimes transiently into stance, sometimessimilar to back stance, sometimes to kiba dachi, say when retracting or setting up techniques.

So I want to think(hope) that there are actual uses for the stances, although not as constant combat stances.

For myself, I often adapt soemthing similar to sanchin dachi when I am wearing a body mitts and while the opponent is flooding me with strikes and kicks. So that holding the mitts itself becomes not just passive, but a balance training. I like this better than front stance, because front stance is more assymmetrical. But then I just trust the feedback in my own body, I do not care for foot angles, but I effectively end up with something similar to shotokan sanchin.

Please be careful to keep your knee on the same plane as your foot and hip: the whole leg should turn so that the foot reaches that angle. A common mistake with that kind of movement is to force the foot into the inwards 45 degree angle but not the upper leg (e.g. because of a lack of mobility at the hip).

I get that, but that's exactly where I do have mobility issues. I simply feel that forcing this is wrong, I don't need the instructor for that. But I still want to understand why one insists on the for me at least, extreme stance.

This creates torque in the knee which can be damaging. It might be one of the reasons why shotokan (which evolved to be taught in schools) made the adjustment with the straight back leg (it tends to create less torque). If you feel any torque in the knee, make a more natural angle and slowly work towards more range of rotation for your whole leg.

Then I think this is very important point/teaching. Why to respond with this, when a student asks in class?

 

[Fungus]

Tate seishan (sanchin) where the performer has rotated 90 degrees in the direction of the leading foot, is the default fighting stance for Wado Ryu Karate.

I googled this, and this is not the same as shotokan or kyokushin sanchi dachi.

Your Wado ryu version makes more sense as a bit more allround fighting stance, although kykushing stance is a bit more squared. But my personal fighting stance is LESS squared than the typical kyokushin standard, so instructors tease me for beeing a TKD guy, and how vulnerable I am to some techniques.

 

[_Simon_]

To be clear, ^ NOT because I expect heated discussion or controversy, but because it is a topic I am genuinely interested in! I'll write my thoughts later haha.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In Isshinryu, the sanchin stance has the back foot straight and the front foot angled in slightly. Not to 45 degrees. Maybe half that.

It is most definitely a fighting stance. As we do our kata barefoot, we use the toes and angle of the feet to dig in and force apart. As if we were using our feet to stick ourselves to the ground.

It should be a very stable stance. Traditionally we test the stance while others perform the kata.

There is an excellent book on the subject by Kris Wilder called, "The Way of Sanchin." It's inexpensive. I recommend it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

front feet are approximately 45 degrees inwards.

IMO, the best angle for your front foot should be straight forward (pointing toward your opponent).

If your front foot points

- inward, your opponent can sweep your foot from outside.
- outward, your opponent can sweep your foot from inside.

In other words, you want the heel of your front foot to be as farther away from your opponent as possible.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Here's a video of sanchin testing.

My dojo isn't quite so harsh.

 

[isshinryuronin]

inward, your opponent can sweep your foot from outside.
- outward, your opponent can sweep your foot from inside.

In a properly rooted sanchin stance it's almost impossible to sweep.

 

[isshinryuronin]

inward, your opponent can sweep your foot from outside.
- outward, your opponent can sweep your foot from inside.

In a properly rooted sanchin stance it's almost impossible to sweep.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In a properly rooted sanchin stance it's almost impossible to sweep.

Our feet have almost 0 resistance against a force that come behind our heel.

It has nothing to do with the rooting (vertical downward force). It has to do with a force that come behind your heel and toward your toes (horizontal sweep force). You don't need 180 lb horizontal force to deal with 180 lb vertical downward force.

There is no stance that cannot be sweep as long as you put weight on. This is why one should not expose his heel. 45-degree foot direction does expose the heel.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here's a video of sanchin testing.

My dojo isn't quite so harsh.

Thanks for posting this video, Bill.

This force is typical of old school testing. Like you, my dojo was not quite so harsh. It doesn't have to be as
the main purpose of such testing is simply to gauge the student's body structure and control of power projection. It also demonstrates the student being able to carry on under intense pressure. I've seen more brutal testing, including the sensei breaking 2 x 4's across the student's arms, legs, lats and abs. Very cool.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It has nothing to do with the rooting

I'll disagree. It is very difficult with the type of rooting structure found in Okinawan karate (which may be different from CMA) as the toes and feet grip the floor, the legs have high internal tension, and the hips are strongly locked. At the same time, the upper body lats and shoulders are being pulled down. This can be seen in the video. Sweeping attempts are sometimes part of sanchin testing, though this video example does not show this. It was a part of my testing. I've swept many guys and there were some I could not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'll disagree. It is very difficult with the type of rooting structure found in Okinawan karate (which may be different from CMA) as the toes and feet grip the floor, the legs have high internal tension, and the hips are strongly locked. At the same time, the upper body lats and shoulders are being pulled down. This can be seen in the video. Sweeping attempts are sometimes part of sanchin testing, though this video example does not show this. It was a part of my testing. I've swept many guys and there were some I could not.

It's very easy to test this.

- Your opponent stands in Okinawan karate stance.
- You tie a rope around his ankle.
- You pull the rope (heel to toes direction).

What's the chance that your opponent won't fall down?

 

[isshinryuronin]

It's very easy to test this.

- Your opponent stands in Okinawan karate stance.
- You tie a rope around his ankle.
- You pull the rope (heel to toes direction).

What's the chance that your opponent won't fall down?

I've already tested this, not with ropes, but with actual sweeping from both sides of the action in class, test and tournaments.

It was a part of my testing. I've swept many guys and there were some I could not.

 

[Fungus]

Our feet have almost 0 resistance against a force that come behind our heel.

It has nothing to do with the rooting (vertical downward force). It has to do with a force that come behind your heel and toward your toes (horizontal sweep force). You don't need 180 lb horizontal force to deal with 180 lb vertical downward force.

the key in sanchin that avoids this is that you bend your knees. So there is also a horizontal resistance in the stance!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the key in sanchin that avoids this is that you bend your knees. So there is also a horizontal resistance in the stance!

The bending knee can resist the force that come to the front and also come from both sides. Can bending knee be able to resist a force that come from the back?

In this clip, A lands his foot with 45-degree inward angle. B can easily reach to A's heel and sweep A down.

 

[O'Malley]

Fascinating discussion, it's really cool to learn about all this.

 

[Same Trick]

I agree with that it’s quite hard to sweep the leg of a sanchin standing guy, but who stands around like that during combat ?,
It should be quite easy to sweep the leg while in transition from one stable sanchin dachi(stance) to the next stable sanchin stance as something as shown in the gif in “Kung fu Wang” post