Lineage differences

[Flying Crane]

When I talk about pivoting, it's driven from the foot or from the hips. Mind you, I'm talking about pivots that keep the weight evenly distributed between the feet (in theory).

Well, what I am talking about isn't an either-or thing. It's not from the feet or the hips. It's from the feet. If you feel torque on the knees, then it's not being driven by the feet. But like I said to wingchun100, may not be able to get the message across over a discussion like this, it could be useful face-to-face.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, what I am talking about isn't an either-or thing. It's not from the feet or the hips. It's from the feet. If you feel torque on the knees, then it's not being driven by the feet. But like I said to wingchun100, may not be able to get the message across over a discussion like this, it could be useful face-to-face.

Well, the feet can't actually create the rotation - that movement comes from the legs and hips.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, the feet can't actually create the rotation - that movement comes from the legs and hips.

Yes, the feet can. It is absolutely fundamental to the system i study. If you find yourself in the San Francisco area, I'll show you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, the feet can. It is absolutely fundamental to the system i study. If you find yourself in the San Francisco area, I'll show you.

I'm speaking anatomically. The feet are incapable of generating that movement - they cannot turn the bones in the leg. You're speaking of using a mental image, not the actual muscular movement.

 

[Flying Crane]

The legs provide th power, but the feet engage, and yes the hips are also in loved. It is a full-body thing, but it starts with the feet and legs. It is definitely not hips first and feet follow.

Again, written discussion doesn't get the picture across. If you are in town, drop me a line.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The legs provide th power, but the feet engage, and yes the hips are also in loved. It is a full-body thing, but it starts with the feet and legs. It is definitely not hips first and feet follow.

Again, written discussion doesn't get the picture across. If you are in town, drop me a line.

I'll do so - you and I are talking different languages, so to speak, and being in person would make it much easier.

 

[KPM]

Wing Chun is a close-range art. Pin Sun maybe emphasizes this a bit more than others. We pivot just enough to get the job done. When you are close, the pivot is often small. So it comes from the Kua/hips and can be very fast and helps deliver "short power". When a larger pivot is needed from a bit further out, the feet adjust for the increase in amplitude. But even though the motion initiates from the hips, it is powered by the legs and the feet pressing into the ground. There is no torque on the knees when done properly because the feet move naturally to compensate. All footwork motions, including the pivot, are centered at and controlled by the Kua.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wing Chun is a close-range art. Pin Sun maybe emphasizes this a bit more than others. We pivot just enough to get the job done. When you are close, the pivot is often small. So it comes from the Kua/hips and can be very fast and helps deliver "short power". When a larger pivot is needed from a bit further out, the feet adjust for the increase in amplitude. But even though the motion initiates from the hips, it is powered by the legs and the feet pressing into the ground. There is no torque on the knees when done properly because the feet move naturally to compensate. All footwork motions, including the pivot, are centered at and controlled by the Kua.

That makes some sense. I'll need to find someone near me who can show me what those look and feel like.

 

[Flying Crane]

And to clarify, my comments are not coming from a wing chun background. I believe the principle is the same but the physical manifestation of how we train it is different. Still, if you understand it you can see the commonality beneath it all.

 

[wckf92]

That makes some sense. I'll need to find someone near me who can show me what those look and feel like.

these guys may be near you(?). They seem to be of the "WT" brand...

Bay Mountain Wing Tsun: Asheville NC | Facebook

 

[Gerry Seymour]

these guys may be near you(?). They seem to be of the "WT" brand...

Bay Mountain Wing Tsun: Asheville NC | Facebook

They might - no location posted at website or FB, but I'll reach out to them. Maybe some folks to share ideas with.

 

[wckf92]

They might - no location posted at website or FB, but I'll reach out to them. Maybe some folks to share ideas with.

I'm sure there must be more in the WNC area...just gotta google it.
FWIW, if your primarily interested in WC's turning/shifting, keep in mind different families emphasize different methods, i.e. as far as I know the WT folks turn on the forward part of the foot, vs the middle, vs the heel etc etc. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[Eric_H]

Yes, the feet can. It is absolutely fundamental to the system i study. If you find yourself in the San Francisco area, I'll show you.

That offer open to anyone in the SF area?

 

[geezer]

Contrary to Crane, we visualize the rotation being motivated by the knees. As GPSeymour noted, the actual mechanical power comes from the muscles that rotate the thigh at the hip joint, but mentally focusing on adducting the knee works very well. It's similar to thinking of of the elbow as initiating rotation when going from tan to bong and back. The knee is seen as the "elbow of the leg".

Turning is trained using adduction of the knees to turn one foot at a time, pivoting on the center of the foot. The feet turn 45 degrees off center and the weight is shifted 100%. In practice movements and weight shifts are actually a good deal more flexible (like what Danny said) and I find the kind of thing that KPM was talking about (Alan Orr does it too) seems to come into play, especially as you start to loosen up and let the body flex. Heck sometimes the feet don't seem to turn at all, but that little hip-torso flex adds beaucoup power. Very relaxed and whipping. But them I'm constantly experimenting. It's just my nature.

BTW, as most of the old timers here know, I started training WT back in '80 with my old sifu LT, so that still flavors what I do.

 

[Flying Crane]

That offer open to anyone in the SF area?

Potentially. If you are going to be in the area, let me know, we'll see what we might work out. My time is limited.

 

[Eric_H]

Potentially. If you are going to be in the area, let me know, we'll see what we might work out. My time is limited.

Well, I live in SF, so hopefully we could find an overlap. Hit me up via DM and we can exchange numbers.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, I live in SF, so hopefully we could find an overlap. Hit me up via DM and we can exchange numbers.

Oh indeed!

 

[JPinAZ]

^^^^ Sure. I agree in a real exchange things are going to deviate and you are going to do what works!

While I agree, you're primarily going to do whatever is either instinctual (what we do with little-to-no training), or what is ingrained thru training to a point we don't have to think about it. This is somewhat tied into 'doing what works', but it's also separate because either could still be what doesn't work

 

[lansao]

Hello! In the variant that I studied and practice, we leverage pivoting as a means of repositioning our feet to take a step. That said, we largely depend on taking small steps in an effort to "step out of the line of force." That said, our weight distribution strives for 50/50 and we take an angled stance. The argument for the 50/50 weight distribution is to avoid presenting our "missing tripod" to our opponents and to maintain mobility in as many directions as possible.

Hope this was helpful and tremendous respect to all lineages and their respective reasoning.

Here is a short video of the footwork section of our advanced sil lum tao (separate from our sil lum tao).

~ Alan, Wing Chun Student

 

[KPM]

Thanks Alan! Is this William Cheung lineage....Traditional Wing Chun?