Learning Without An Instructor.

[Andrew Green]

Perhaps it is just my tendency to think of martial arts as just another sport, but here's a question:

Suppose you saw some kids in the park playing basketball, would you immediately think: "Silly kids, they want everything without effort, they should go join a real team, with a real coach!"

People do things for different reasons, and if someone wants to play around a little with firends, maybe pick some things up from books or videos, I say go for it. Have fun. WHo knows, maybe it will build interest and get them into it in a more organized way later on.

Essentially it comes across as saying "Play fighting is wrong" and anyone looking to playfight needs to join a club, I can't buy into that. Play fighting is in our nature. If people want to do it in there backyard, no different then playing football or rugby in there backyard. If they want to join a team, thats great too. But play fighting is not "special", coaches and clubs are great, but not required to have fun as any 5-15 year old male will strongly testify to.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I've seen that in BJJ, I started in 96 shortly after the BJJ craze started, and lots of people only had access through video. Guys would come in that knew how to do a sub, but they left so much space, and things just weren't ever as tight as someone who learned from a legitimate instructor.

The little details will always be missed if you try to learn things via books, videos, DVD's, internet video clips, etc. Your above point rings strikingly clear in that this is something I see regularly with new people coming in thinking that they already know a little submission grappling only to find out that they are sorely mistaken as they leave to much space, have poor balance, do not effectively use their body weight, screwed the sequence up, etc.

While I agree with Andrew that some things can be learned and some people can learn based on their own unique abilities. (however they are far and few between) In the end I think it is always better to find a competant instructor and spend the time and effort, blood and sweat to actually become good in the martial system of your choice.

However, I also realize that their are lot's and lot's of people who want that quick fix and will go the way of book, DVD, internet learning and in the end probably waste their time and money.

 

[jks9199]

Perhaps it is just my tendency to think of martial arts as just another sport, but here's a question:

Suppose you saw some kids in the park playing basketball, would you immediately think: "Silly kids, they want everything without effort, they should go join a real team, with a real coach!"

People do things for different reasons, and if someone wants to play around a little with firends, maybe pick some things up from books or videos, I say go for it. Have fun. WHo knows, maybe it will build interest and get them into it in a more organized way later on.

Essentially it comes across as saying "Play fighting is wrong" and anyone looking to playfight needs to join a club, I can't buy into that. Play fighting is in our nature. If people want to do it in there backyard, no different then playing football or rugby in there backyard. If they want to join a team, thats great too. But play fighting is not "special", coaches and clubs are great, but not required to have fun as any 5-15 year old male will strongly testify to.

But... If those kids want to really become skilled, they will need a coach. They may be able to pick a trick or two up watching the NBA and playing in the school yard or park -- but they'll also almost certainly miss out on specific details.

Sure, you just want to learn to fight, you can do that on your own. You can find people and pound on them or get pounded on... You can even enter boxing/martial arts events if that's what you want to do. You'll learn something...

But if you want to learn XYZ style of martial arts, you almost certainly need an instructor. An advanced student/practitioner might be able to get the large ideas of a different system (especially if it's similar to their "home") system from books or videos with a minimal number of errors -- but there'll still be errors. I recall Stephen Hayes writing about how two people showed up for a clinic/seminar and were able to mimic the moves from one of his books "perfectly", like robots -- but that they'd missed the heart or essence of the moves. No matter how carefully written, how perfectly filmed -- I think it's almost impossible not to have that sort of effect, and that it's almost impossible not to miss details or place the emphasis in the wrong places on a technique.

I'm not saying that books or videos can't be useful reference tools; I've got a few that I refer to often. But they aren't a substitute for having the proper fundamentals under a skilled instructor. Just like basketball or baseball requires a good coach to teach the fundamental skills before you try to do fancy modifications that you see in the pros.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Learning from videos and DVDs is at best a supplement to training with an instructor not a substitute for it.

 

[Andrew Green]

But... If those kids want to really become skilled, they will need a coach. They may be able to pick a trick or two up watching the NBA and playing in the school yard or park -- but they'll also almost certainly miss out on specific details.

Yes, but not everyone cares to take it to that level. I played street hockey, basketball, football and quite a few other sports from time to time, all without a coach. I wasn't planning on getting a million dollar contract, just having fun and learning some basics. For my interests a coach and organized team didn't fit in. And I am more then willing to accept other people having the same feelings about martial arts.

Some people have a interest, but not to that point.

Personally if I had to have a coach and organized club for all my sporting endevours as a kid, I'd have played nothing but video games.

 

[jdinca]

I would look at this type of learning as a last resort, i.e., there's no place to train. The nuances that come from an experienced instructor aren't there when watching a tape, nor is immediate feedback that can be so crucial to understanding what it is your doing, and how well you're doing it.

I do think they can be used for educational purposes, comparing different systems, etc.

 

[Kacey]

Perhaps it is just my tendency to think of martial arts as just another sport, but here's a question:

Suppose you saw some kids in the park playing basketball, would you immediately think: "Silly kids, they want everything without effort, they should go join a real team, with a real coach!"

People do things for different reasons, and if someone wants to play around a little with firends, maybe pick some things up from books or videos, I say go for it. Have fun. WHo knows, maybe it will build interest and get them into it in a more organized way later on.

Essentially it comes across as saying "Play fighting is wrong" and anyone looking to playfight needs to join a club, I can't buy into that. Play fighting is in our nature. If people want to do it in there backyard, no different then playing football or rugby in there backyard. If they want to join a team, thats great too. But play fighting is not "special", coaches and clubs are great, but not required to have fun as any 5-15 year old male will strongly testify to.

On the one hand, I understand what you're saying... on the other hand, there are a few problems inherent in this that don't come up as much in other sports. One, people who are self-taught often think they're better than they are, and start things they can't finish - that's not such a big problem in basketball - but I've known a few people who started formal MA training because they got into fights thinking their self-instruction was enough.

Two, some of the self-taught who don't find out the hard way (#1) that they aren't as good as they think they are start teaching others. Now, to go back to your basketball example, it's not such a problem with basketball, because there are enough examples of truly good players in the NBA for someone to know, fairly quickly, if the person they're learning from really knows how to play. As has come up in quite a few discussions on MT and elsewhere, however, it's hard to know, as a newbie, if the MA instructor up the street really knows anything... generally, people find out too late that the "master" they've been training with really isn't.

Three, if people training with #2 don't realize that the person isn't as good as s/he thinks and/or how #2 got his/her training, they often go out and disseminate the things they've learned, now second-hand and unknowingly, from books and videos.

 

[Flying Crane]

Perhaps it is just my tendency to think of martial arts as just another sport, but here's a question:

I guess for me, I don't see the martial arts as a sport at all.

Some elements of martial arts have certainly become a sport, but for me it is most definitely not a sport. It is actually serious (but fun!) business, and it can have some serious consequences. It is an art and a craft, and to do it well requires guidance from a skilled teacher. It is more than simple pugilism.

yes, you can figure out how to fight by yourself and a few friends in the playground. Yes, you can watch some videos and read some books and figure out a few basic techniques to a modest level of proficiency. But to learn a systematic art well requires serious training and study. You will not get this thru books and video.

 

[Sukerkin]

Like Kacey, to an extent I have to say that Andrew has brought up a point that I've never previously given any thought to before.

I have been guilty of putting Martial Arts in a different 'box' than other other physical activities of a more 'sport' orientated nature and my attitudes have evolved with that bias inbuilt.

I do, however, think that MA is different, as Kacey (and FC) outlined so well above above.

Also, at it's base level, practising a matial art is intrinsically about learning how to fight, how to inflict hurt on others ... which is why the proper training of the 'spiritual' side is a necessary counterbalance and that can only usually flow from a mature instructor. Even with a good instructor there is still a tendency for increasing physical skill to bring out the 'bully' in some people but that can be contained and redirected as training continues.

That said, it's not really what the thread is about, so I'll hush on that tack .

 

[Xue Sheng]

I guess for me, I don't see the martial arts as a sport at all.

Some elements of martial arts have certainly become a sport, but for me it is most definitely not a sport. It is actually serious (but fun!) business, and it can have some serious consequences. It is an art and a craft, and to do it well requires guidance from a skilled teacher. It is more than simple pugilism.

yes, you can figure out how to fight by yourself and a few friends in the playground. Yes, you can watch some videos and read some books and figure out a few basic techniques to a modest level of proficiency. But to learn a systematic art well requires serious training and study. You will not get this thru books and video.

Agreed

Additionally, for example you can learn Taiji forms, Xingyi forms and Bagua forms from a video but it is highly unlikely you will know how to use them for both health and MA. And as for the internal, it just ain't happening form a video

 

[Andrew Green]

One, people who are self-taught often think they're better than they are, and start things they can't finish - that's not such a big problem in basketball - but I've known a few people who started formal MA training because they got into fights thinking their self-instruction was enough.

I would consider this not a problem with the idea of learning and playing on your own, but with the mindset of the person doing it. And like all other sports, as you play with different people, including ones with real training, you find out where you stand pretty quickly.

The same problem also arrises within martial arts internally. People with training in one form thinking they are good at another. I've come a cross quite a few people that where good at more traditional / asian styles of self-defence orientated grappling, and assumed this would transfer well into submission, it didn't.

Two, some of the self-taught who don't find out the hard way (#1) that they aren't as good as they think they are start teaching others.

Again I'd say this is not a problem with the idea of doing it, just with the people doing it. With sport based systems I think this is not as big of a problem as it is harder to "fake it". But if we are looking at martial arts in general, then they are included.

However, someone picking up a set of "Best Karate" and then teaching Shotokan would be wrong. But Shotokan is a very different activity in terms of training and intent then boxing or wrestling.

I understand your point, that people picking some stuff up and making up there own style is a problem. However I don't think it has to do with people who want to learn and play on there own. From what I have seen the "Grandmaster of my own style" guys are really not that keen on contact fighting, and there is a reason for that.

But if you approach martial arts training in a sport based way, as many systems do, I have no problem treating it in the same category as basketball or hockey. People that want to play around on there own should go for it. Maybe they'll get hooked and join a class someday

 

[jks9199]

Yes, but not everyone cares to take it to that level. I played street hockey, basketball, football and quite a few other sports from time to time, all without a coach. I wasn't planning on getting a million dollar contract, just having fun and learning some basics. For my interests a coach and organized team didn't fit in. And I am more then willing to accept other people having the same feelings about martial arts.

Some people have a interest, but not to that point.

Personally if I had to have a coach and organized club for all my sporting endevours as a kid, I'd have played nothing but video games.

But you didn't really teach yourself these sports. Somebody explained the rules to you. Somebody showed you how to make a slap shot or throw a spiral or gave you tips on shooting free throws or making a lay up.

I've never said that you had to join an organized team to learn how to play a sport -- but that without direct coaching from someone who can look at what you're doing and guide you to more effective, efficient, or successful ways, you won't progress very far.

For some people, all the "martial arts" they want is enough to get through the cardio-kickboxing class at the gym or to do a little "tai chi lite" to improve their balance and coordination. For them, videos or books can work. But to really develop a particular martial art, you need a qualified instructor who can look at what you're doing, and let you know what pieces are right, which are wrong, and how to make it better. I still need either my instructor's eyes, or my partner's eyes on my technique occasionally; it's that easy for something minor to slip out of awareness.

A very few, very talented individuals are probably capable of learning a martial art well from a well written book or carefully filmed video. But for most of us... Nope. We need a coach, trainer, or teacher.

And none of that says that you can't train and practice on your own. In fact, so long as you can be confident you're practicing mostly right -- it's essential to practice on your own.

 

[kidswarrior]

Different people learn different ways though, I'm really good with spacial relationships in that sense.

Learning by video is not something everyone can do, but I wouldn't say its impossible.

I have to agree, although I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. But with all the real-time stuff in my pre-MA days, I am able to separate the rocks from the gems in a video or book. At least for me. Coudn't say they would be useful to another living soul. But do know myself, and while I didn't have to learn MA via video, it's possible I could have learned an adequate amount.

In point of fact, would not have even 10% of the knowledge, skill, or depth of understanding which I have currently without having studied under instructors in class settings for years. Now, I use the videos/books to add layers to the basic understanding I was able to absorb the first dozen years or so: 'Oh, so that's why he said kicking to the legs was so effective', etc. Yes, I learned the surface techniques from the instructors--and maybe that's all some of them knew! But there's a whole ocean of knowledge and experience out there, and since I'll never meet most of the people who hold it, books and videos are my opportunity to learn what they have to share.

 

[kidswarrior]

I happen to have a serious problem processing complex spatial relationships, or even simple ones for that matter.

Thank God, Ex! I was beginning to wonder if you were really human. Good to know there 's at least a minor flaw in there.

 

[kidswarrior]

Also, at it's base level, practising a matial art is intrinsically about learning how to fight, how to inflict hurt on others ... which is why the proper training of the 'spiritual' side is a necessary counterbalance and that can only usually flow from a mature instructor. Even with a good instructor there is still a tendency for increasing physical skill to bring out the 'bully' in some people but that can be contained and redirected as training continues.

That said, it's not really what the thread is about, so I'll hush on that tack .

And I mean to be pretty hush, too. But Sukerkin brought up several good points, and I'd like to sneak in and pull out just one: namely, that a mature instructor can/should help the individual to mature, as well. Problem is, I've had some MA instructors who were magicians at their craft, but merley average (or less) as human beings. And so perhaps with the added responsibilty of teaching their students to use martial power responsibly, learning from these instructors would not be worth a long drive, big dollars, etc. In other words, I believe there is a tendency on this board (and I do it too) to speak of instructors in general as either 'qualified instructors', or hacks. But maybe somone can be both--in fact, I think I've taken classes from him.

In that case, and if he's the only game in town, is it still better to learn from a 'qualified' instructor? (Kind of playing devil's advocate here )

 

[Steel Tiger]

I happen to have a serious problem processing complex spatial relationships, or even simple ones for that matter. And a surprising number of people I've talked to have the same problem, though maybe to a lesser degree. For me, watching moves on a DVD that I don't already pretty much know is just baffling for the first half hour or so until I can work out what the people are actually doing, and even then, I'm none too sure about what I'm seeing. With an instructor physically present, it's a totally different ball game, and worth any amount of time and money, I think, if you're really serious about getting it right.

You raise a very important point about books, DVDs, and videos in that they are often geared to educating those who already know. They may be sold as beginning techniques, but the creators are approaching them with a certain degree of knowledge and are clearly expecting some degree of knowledge from the reader/viewer. In most cases it is probably unintended, but the consequence is difficulty in following what is presented. These various things should be approached as a supplement to serious training. They can engender dangerous practices for the unwary.

Having said that, I think that Dr Yang Jwing Ming's work is quite good. In his books there are ample illustrations of both techniques and applications, and his explanations of technical aspects are pretty good. Certainly lightyears ahead of some 'manuals' I have acquired from China.

 

[Cirdan]

Simply put, there is no way in hell you can get an art by learning just from books and DVDs.

 

[Grenadier]

It can be done. However, it's not for everyone.

In my opinion, someone studying the martial arts from a book / video, might be able to pick up a few things here and there, and that the more experienced he already is, then the more likely he is going to get something out of that video. However, that's already presuming a lot. For my examples, I will simplify things a bit, and limit my discussion to the striking arts.

A complete neophyte is most likely not going to understand bodily mechanics, and even if a book tells him how to throw a punch properly, I doubt that the book is going to go into much detail regarding the finer points, since you could probably write several chapters on all of the crucial mechanics involved in throwing a decent straight-line punch. Even worse, is when someone is trying to learn how to throw a kick, since now they have to worry about how their balance is going to hold up (and for neophytes, that sense of balance isn't going to be good at all).

An area of concern is also seen in injury prevention. I've read a good number of books, and for the most part, when they teach punching, they do cover the topic of making sure that you have decent extension when throwing that punch. However, I have also seen in many of those texts, that they somehow forgot to mention not going too far, which could result in hyperextension, damage, etc.

A good teacher could easily point out such mistakes in a matter of a set or two of punches, taking all but a few minutes, whereas the neophyte who bought one of the lesser texts might have to find out the hard way, the consequences of bad mechanics, and that recovery could take many a week to finish.


I realize that it's only a movie, but if we look at the flick "The Karate Kid," where Daniel is trying to learn Karate from a book, and Mr. Miyagi gives that amused look while Daniel is trying to perform the moves, using horrible mechanics. Even though it was a fictitious movie, that type of self-learning is actually not too uncommon when complete neophytes try to emulate what they see in those books without decent instruction.

 

[Shidoshi0153]

I've gotta throw my $.02 in here. While most of the posts here have great points to offer, I have to say that we need to be wary about making absolute statements.

Let me throw out that I think, in general, learning from an instructor is the best way to go, but by no means does this mean someone can't learn without one. People learn many different ways. Some are visual learners, some audio, etc. The point is that there are those out there with the aptitude to be able to understand points made by a book or dvd or the like. The key is to practice constantly and see if the information received from such tools works as predicted. Trial and error can be a wonderful teacher in itself. I tend to think that relying too heavily on an instructor can cause problems as well.

I like to go back to the original grandmasters of any given style. They had no teacher yet they were able to come up with founding principles that were taught and improved upon. Where has our creative spirit gone? These were just men like all of us who decided that trial and error could produce effective results. Just something to chew on.

 

[jim777]

I spent 9 years on the guitar before I ever took a lesson. Many, many of those days were 8 hours or more (well...technically they were all 24 hours, but you know what I mean!). I got pretty good, played a lot of gigs, made people happy, etc.
Then, I got a teacher and learned pretty quickly that almost everything I knew was at least a little off, if not completely off. There were mountains of information and tons of skills (I could have easily mastered) so very close to where I was that I simply never would have found myself. Getting a teacher was both instantly gratifying, and but also made me regret all of the thousands upon thousands of hours I had spent going it alone. If I had had only half an hour a week of instruction during those years, I would have been so much better. It made me happy, and got me where I wanted to go, but because I didn't have the knowledge to see what was actually possible, my horizons and expectations were basically random and arbitrary.
If you want to have fun, and that's it, you don't need an instructor. If you want more than that, if you want to try to reach that unattainable perfection, you need a person who is closer to it than you are.