You cannot learn body mechanics from a book

[MJS]

Posit: One cannot learn proper and effective body mechanics from a book or video.

My argument is simple and based on experience and observation. You can open a book on martial arts or pop in a DVD and see how a block is to be applied or a punch or kick is to be delivered. You can emulate what you see, and practice it extensively. But it won't be effective, except accidentally. Why? Because there is a world of difference between a block (for example) and a properly-set block. The difference between a good block and a bad block can be a matter of inches or even fractions of an inch. It can vary between individuals, based on body type, height, weight, and so on. To be effective, a good block must be demonstrated and adjusted by someone who knows how to do it, and it must be tested and felt and understood on a physical level by the person learning it.

Comments?

Can't disagree with any of this Bill! I don't care what the person on the dvd says...it can't be done. Of course the guy on the dvd is going to tell you otherwise, but that's no surprise, as they want to make money, and if they can't sucker someone into believing that they can be a master, a superior fighter, that they can beat anyone, blah, blah, blah, then they'll be out of business faster than they can blink an eye.

People will claim that they live in a small town, with no training around. Sure, that's possible, but that's a poor excuse, IMO. For example: I'd love to train Kajukenbo, but sadly, there're no Kaju schools where I live. So, my options are...1) accept the fact, and train something else, 2) if there was a Kaju school in a nearby state for example, drive down a few times a month, and train, C) Since the vast majority of those schools are in CA, fly down to Cali, spend a week, doing some intense privates/classes, go home, practice like a madman, and fly back again, when you can. But to think that despite having a Kenpo background, will enable me to pick up Kaju, on a proficient level, I'd be kidding myself. LOL. Books and dvd's are a fine reference tool...but anything else....nope, isn't happening.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Can't disagree with any of this Bill! I don't care what the person on the dvd says...it can't be done. Of course the guy on the dvd is going to tell you otherwise, but that's no surprise, as they want to make money, and if they can't sucker someone into believing that they can be a master, a superior fighter, that they can beat anyone, blah, blah, blah, then they'll be out of business faster than they can blink an eye.

People will claim that they live in a small town, with no training around. Sure, that's possible, but that's a poor excuse, IMO. For example: I'd love to train Kajukenbo, but sadly, there're no Kaju schools where I live. So, my options are...1) accept the fact, and train something else, 2) if there was a Kaju school in a nearby state for example, drive down a few times a month, and train, C) Since the vast majority of those schools are in CA, fly down to Cali, spend a week, doing some intense privates/classes, go home, practice like a madman, and fly back again, when you can. But to think that despite having a Kenpo background, will enable me to pick up Kaju, on a proficient level, I'd be kidding myself. LOL. Books and dvd's are a fine reference tool...but anything else....nope, isn't happening.

I've been thinking a lot about this. I believe the issue is feedback.

Let's say you pick up a book on riding a bicycle. It shows you how to get on the bike, tells you about banking for turns, balancing, and so on. But without actually sitting on a bike and trying to stay up, you haven't learned to ride a bike and you cannot claim to have done it.

However, you could take what you have learned, get on a bike, and practice balancing, pedalling, turning, stopping, and so on, until you finally got it. And like an effective block or punch or kick, the difference between staying upright on a bike and falling over is one of centimeters, learning the proper body mechanics as you go. But you can teach it to yourself. Why? Feedback! You are getting effective feedback in what works and what does not as you try to ride the bike.

Martial arts is not quite like that. You can throw up a block all day long; but absent feedback, it's more likely to be ineffective than effective. It's just a move, like sitting on a bike which has training wheels holding you upright. Sure, it looks like you're blocking (or riding) but take those training wheels off and over you go. Smack that block, and the guy hits himself in the head with his own fist.

Now. Let's say a small group of dedicated guys got together and read a book or watched a video and VERY DILIGENTLY practiced what they they learned. Would they start to get it? Yeah, maybe. There would be feedback, they could adjust and retry, and learn. They might eventually get it. But consider how painfully laborious and time-intensive that would be. So many things to learn, so much time to experiment in earnest until stumbling over the exact right position, and what if they never do? Not having experience it 'right', they might never realize what they were doing was wrong. They might think what they were doing was as good as it gets.

Add one experienced teacher, who learned it in person from his or her teacher, and the whole dynamic changes. Now they are not searching in the dark. They are shown how to block. They throw up their block. The instructor tests it, it fails. The instructor examines their position, makes suggestions and aligns body mechanics and retests. Shortly, the 'right' block happens and the resulting feedback is immediate. The difference between a good block and a bad one is now VERY obvious to the person doing it. It will take time and diligent practice to be able to do it right every time, but they now know what 'right' feels like, not just what it looks like.

As to solo practice from a book, unless the reader is very well versed in martial arts first, I just don't see it happening.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Bill, I find that sometimes just a few words or a clever metaphor can really change the tech. A few months ago a fellow Kenpoist posted a vide of himself doing a tech, badly. I told him to do it like you are throwing a football, and he suddenly understood the tech. While, yes, that is live feedback; however, it could have been included in a book or vid.
Sean

 

[Instructor]

I know there are people who sell DVDs and who use online teaching; Instructor is one. I know how diligent he is it doing everything possible to be sure his students learn properly.

But I have stated before, I always have had doubts about it, especially in a grappling art. But again, I know Instructor tries to overcome the limitations by encouraging personal contact periodically.

Of course, maybe it is just me being slow learner. :boing1:

All true. Even I tell people that learning from a local school is easiest and encourage that way of doing things. However, in the remote learning context I think weaknesses can be mitigated with planning, patience, and lot's of feedback. However Bill is not wrong folks. Training in person with human beings, (provided they are competent) is the easiest way to learn any given task.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, I find that sometimes just a few words or a clever metaphor can really change the tech. A few months ago a fellow Kenpoist posted a vide of himself doing a tech, badly. I told him to do it like you are throwing a football, and he suddenly understood the tech. While, yes, that is live feedback; however, it could have been included in a book or vid.
Sean

He says he understands it. Doesn't mean he can do it. How would he know? How would you?

 

[Touch Of Death]

He says he understands it. Doesn't mean he can do it. How would he know? How would you?

It got him closer, and ya do that tech like you throw a ball... Trust me.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It got him closer, and ya do that tech like you throw a ball... Trust me.

I think you're reinforcing my point, though.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think you're reinforcing my point, though.

No I'm trying to blast it, dang it. You are talking about a perfection, and I am saying through metaphor and a few self help books to can get going and advance several levels. You and I will never throw our punches like Nolan Ryan, but we are advancing.

 

[MJS]

I've been thinking a lot about this. I believe the issue is feedback.

Let's say you pick up a book on riding a bicycle. It shows you how to get on the bike, tells you about banking for turns, balancing, and so on. But without actually sitting on a bike and trying to stay up, you haven't learned to ride a bike and you cannot claim to have done it.

However, you could take what you have learned, get on a bike, and practice balancing, pedalling, turning, stopping, and so on, until you finally got it. And like an effective block or punch or kick, the difference between staying upright on a bike and falling over is one of centimeters, learning the proper body mechanics as you go. But you can teach it to yourself. Why? Feedback! You are getting effective feedback in what works and what does not as you try to ride the bike.

Martial arts is not quite like that. You can throw up a block all day long; but absent feedback, it's more likely to be ineffective than effective. It's just a move, like sitting on a bike which has training wheels holding you upright. Sure, it looks like you're blocking (or riding) but take those training wheels off and over you go. Smack that block, and the guy hits himself in the head with his own fist.

Now. Let's say a small group of dedicated guys got together and read a book or watched a video and VERY DILIGENTLY practiced what they they learned. Would they start to get it? Yeah, maybe. There would be feedback, they could adjust and retry, and learn. They might eventually get it. But consider how painfully laborious and time-intensive that would be. So many things to learn, so much time to experiment in earnest until stumbling over the exact right position, and what if they never do? Not having experience it 'right', they might never realize what they were doing was wrong. They might think what they were doing was as good as it gets.

Add one experienced teacher, who learned it in person from his or her teacher, and the whole dynamic changes. Now they are not searching in the dark. They are shown how to block. They throw up their block. The instructor tests it, it fails. The instructor examines their position, makes suggestions and aligns body mechanics and retests. Shortly, the 'right' block happens and the resulting feedback is immediate. The difference between a good block and a bad one is now VERY obvious to the person doing it. It will take time and diligent practice to be able to do it right every time, but they now know what 'right' feels like, not just what it looks like.

As to solo practice from a book, unless the reader is very well versed in martial arts first, I just don't see it happening.

Good analogy! One of my good friends and training partners, was looking at a short clip that the Gracies had put together, on some self defense techniques. The clip was not designed to be a learning tool, but instead, more of a promo for their version of SD. Well, my friend watched this very close, to the point where he slowed things down, watched the same sequence repeatedly, etc, and sure enough, picked up every tech shown. He was at a Gracie seminar, and during a break, approached them, mentioned the clip, and went on to demo everything for them. Needless to say, they were impressed, and a bit surprised that he was able to pick that stuff up, since the clip wasn't designed to learn from in the first place. LOL. He has a solid MA background, so as you said, a trained person, would probably be able to pick stuff up.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No I'm trying to blast it, dang it. You are talking about a perfection, and I am saying through metaphor and a few self help books to can get going and advance several levels. You and I will never throw our punches like Nolan Ryan, but we are advancing.

So what you're saying is that you can learn a technique or two via video/book. Mmm, OK. Guess it depends on the technique. I guess I was thinking more in terms of things that either work or do not, without a lot of middle ground. A good block either sets and is effective or it isn't. I don't see a lot of 'levels' to it. But I see what you're saying also. Point made!

 

[Touch Of Death]

So what you're saying is that you can learn a technique or two via video/book. Mmm, OK. Guess it depends on the technique. I guess I was thinking more in terms of things that either work or do not, without a lot of middle ground. A good block either sets and is effective or it isn't. I don't see a lot of 'levels' to it. But I see what you're saying also. Point made!

Doesn't anyone in your family ever imitate your karate? They are doing it at a different level. LOL As for forms, a kenpoist can guess the level of performance and see if it is anywhere near that rag they hang off their waste, and we gather a whole lot of information about that person without ever speaking to him.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Doesn't anyone in your family ever imitate your karate? They are doing it at a different level. LOL As for forms, a kenpoist can guess the level of performance and see if it is anywhere near that rag they hang off their waste, and we gather a whole lot of information about that person without ever speaking to him.

I'm an old guy. My only child is grown and gone and I started training long after that. In any case, I take your point. My point is that a block either works or it does not. There's no 'different level' about it. Once it is made to work, then yes, there is much that can be done to improve upon it, improvise on the theme, and so on. But until it works, it's not karate.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm an old guy. My only child is grown and gone and I started training long after that. In any case, I take your point. My point is that a block either works or it does not. There's no 'different level' about it. Once it is made to work, then yes, there is much that can be done to improve upon it, improvise on the theme, and so on. But until it works, it's not karate.

Yes of course. Once you learn to block, they teach you to step off the attack while blocking, and then pretty soon you are evading and strike/blocking, and then just plain checking the guy out with every move you make. Levels of understanding.

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is no strike; there is no block; there is only wax on, and wax off. Meaning if you can just do that well, your opponent is just a series of targets on that circle.

 

[Argus]

I'm an old guy. My only child is grown and gone and I started training long after that. In any case, I take your point. My point is that a block either works or it does not. There's no 'different level' about it. Once it is made to work, then yes, there is much that can be done to improve upon it, improvise on the theme, and so on. But until it works, it's not karate.

Interesting.

You might have a broader view if you study other arts. That's insightful from my point of view though, because everything we do in Wing Chun is about varying levels. I rarely think of things in black and white.

"Blocks" in Wing Chun (if you would even call them that), for example, are not really made to be strong. In fact, if you tested them as you would do a Karate block, you might be disappointed at the results, because they're designed to collapse. Or, rather, they're designed to change into other shapes and redirect an opponent's force, rather than opposing it. So, I may be able to spread your punch off to the side with my tan-sau, or you might be determined to beat my tan and easily push it off to the side; but that's okay, because I will allow you to do that and just follow your energy and allow my tan to collapse into a bong. In this way, it's possible to flow with the energy that your opponent gives you and find the openings that he creates as he creates them, and you needn't worry about strongly opposing him, or being strongly opposed yourself. You learn to just go with the flow, if you will.

That's not to say that bad technique will do you any good, because it won't. Just that there are varying degrees of effectiveness for any one action, even when done correctly.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Interesting.

You might have a broader view if you study other arts. That's insightful from my point of view though, because everything we do in Wing Chun is about varying levels. I rarely think of things in black and white.

"Blocks" in Wing Chun (if you would even call them that), for example, are not really made to be strong. In fact, if you tested them as you would do a Karate block, you might be disappointed at the results, because they're designed to collapse. Or, rather, they're designed to change into other shapes and redirect an opponent's force, rather than opposing it. So, I may be able to spread your punch off to the side with my tan-sau, or you might be determined to beat my tan and easily push it off to the side; but that's okay, because I will allow you to do that and just follow your energy and allow my tan to collapse into a bong. In this way, you're able to flow with the energy that your opponent gives you in and find the openings that he creates in the moment.

That's not to say that bad technique will do you any good, because it won't. Just that there are varying degrees of effectiveness for any one action, even when done correctly.

Ok, that makes sense. And don't think we don't redirect force also, or redirect it as well in some techniques. We don't always use hard techniques like a hard block; I am using as an easy example, and it's a basic movement in most karate styles. And it's not just black-and-white; there are loads of variations, but ONLY after one learns how to set the bloody thing. A hard block collapsing into your face? Not desirable ever. One learns to set the block correctly, using proper body mechanics, and then practices it until it becomes second nature and always works. Then one moves on (and continues to practice even the basics, of course). My point remains that (at least in my style), one does not learn to correctly set the block from a book or video. Not possible. Perhaps in your style it is, I'll grant you that possibility because I am ignorant of WC.

 

[Argus]

Ok, that makes sense. And don't think we don't redirect force also, or redirect it as well in some techniques. We don't always use hard techniques like a hard block; I am using as an easy example, and it's a basic movement in most karate styles. And it's not just black-and-white; there are loads of variations, but ONLY after one learns how to set the bloody thing. A hard block collapsing into your face? Not desirable ever. One learns to set the block correctly, using proper body mechanics, and then practices it until it becomes second nature and always works. Then one moves on (and continues to practice even the basics, of course). My point remains that (at least in my style), one does not learn to correctly set the block from a book or video. Not possible. Perhaps in your style it is, I'll grant you that possibility because I am ignorant of WC.

I was mostly in agreement with the point you were making, actually. Indeed, if you don't learn the structures correctly in the first place, they won't be effective in WC either. I was just pointing out that there can be varying shades of grey. I know that, even having learned the techniques correctly, some of my seniors are able able to spread me off the center with astounding ease. And conversely, I'm able to do the same to many of my juniors. It goes to show that, though we might all be doing the techniques correctly, there's always room for improvement.

I have to observe, though, that sometimes the correct word or visual imagery helps a student immensely to get a particular movement. A lot of the time, mistakes in technique come from students not understanding the nature or purpose of it in the first place, and a simple example or comparison can get them thinking about it in the right way.

 

[jezr74]

Think I'm going to concede on this.

You might be able to learn the movements from a book or video, but until someone who does know, corrects your mechanic and technique you will not know if your doing it right.

I took the opportunity at my last training session with a few new kicks being taught to see how I go. While the movements felt right, and were still kicks in their own right. I was corrected on foot placement, and using my tanjon when following through and technique. This I did not pick up on when observing initially. My eye is just not trained for it yet.


So I humbly eat my words.

 

[JMike]

I think you can learn the basics from a book, but you're absolutely right that it's helpful for someone to watch and correct your technique. It's very easy to "think" you are doing something correctly, when in fact you are not. Without having someone to train you it's pretty easy to make pretty significant mistakes and not even realize it.

Think I'm going to concede on this.

You might be able to learn the movements from a book or video, but until someone who does know, corrects your mechanic and technique you will not know if your doing it right.

I took the opportunity at my last training session with a few new kicks being taught to see how I go. While the movements felt right, and were still kicks in their own right. I was corrected on foot placement, and using my tanjon when following through and technique. This I did not pick up on when observing initially. My eye is just not trained for it yet.


So I humbly eat my words.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've been thinking a lot about this. I believe the issue is feedback.

Let's say you pick up a book on riding a bicycle. It shows you how to get on the bike, tells you about banking for turns, balancing, and so on. But without actually sitting on a bike and trying to stay up, you haven't learned to ride a bike and you cannot claim to have done it.

However, you could take what you have learned, get on a bike, and practice balancing, pedalling, turning, stopping, and so on, until you finally got it. And like an effective block or punch or kick, the difference between staying upright on a bike and falling over is one of centimeters, learning the proper body mechanics as you go. But you can teach it to yourself. Why? Feedback! You are getting effective feedback in what works and what does not as you try to ride the bike.

Martial arts is not quite like that. You can throw up a block all day long; but absent feedback, it's more likely to be ineffective than effective. It's just a move, like sitting on a bike which has training wheels holding you upright. Sure, it looks like you're blocking (or riding) but take those training wheels off and over you go. Smack that block, and the guy hits himself in the head with his own fist.

Now. Let's say a small group of dedicated guys got together and read a book or watched a video and VERY DILIGENTLY practiced what they they learned. Would they start to get it? Yeah, maybe. There would be feedback, they could adjust and retry, and learn. They might eventually get it. But consider how painfully laborious and time-intensive that would be. So many things to learn, so much time to experiment in earnest until stumbling over the exact right position, and what if they never do? Not having experience it 'right', they might never realize what they were doing was wrong. They might think what they were doing was as good as it gets.

Add one experienced teacher, who learned it in person from his or her teacher, and the whole dynamic changes. Now they are not searching in the dark. They are shown how to block. They throw up their block. The instructor tests it, it fails. The instructor examines their position, makes suggestions and aligns body mechanics and retests. Shortly, the 'right' block happens and the resulting feedback is immediate. The difference between a good block and a bad one is now VERY obvious to the person doing it. It will take time and diligent practice to be able to do it right every time, but they now know what 'right' feels like, not just what it looks like.

As to solo practice from a book, unless the reader is very well versed in martial arts first, I just don't see it happening.

I am in absolute agreement with the necessity for feedback. When I say it is possible to learn body mechanics from a video, I mean working with a training partner to emulate the video and test what is working and what isn't. You definitely can't just watch the video and have the skills magically implant themselves.

In fact, I'd go further and say that working with a (sometimes non-compliant) partner is essential for learning no matter what your source for the material is. Even if you have a teacher. You may have a great instructor, but if all he does is give you corrections while you punch the air then you will never gain the understanding that comes from working with a live body.