Learning when a school or instructor is not available.

[Mark Lynn]

Hey I'm posting this thread since it is my reality, the place where I live has 3 martial arts schools a Judo Dojo, a Taekwondo Dojang, and a MMA school that's it. Really small town and the nearest martial arts school is a TKD Dojang with 2 hour drive one way, now at the very least I have a lot of space the back garden's of everyone are huge, small town lots of land. I love all martial arts and want to learn more styles and learn them correctly from popular styles like Shotokan Karate to more obscure styles like Kalaripayattu, H.E.M.A., G.L.I.M.A., Kali, Chinese MA, several Koryu, etc.

Obsidan Fury

I'll be the downer, the dream stealer, nay sayer, but my main question is what do you really hope to learn from all of these different styles? What do you hope to accomplish with all of that training and basic level knowledge of several very different styles?

I know that self learning is very frowned upon but my choices are very slim I do have a job and a home here, I don't need the color belts I just want to learn. Do you have any advice as to how I can approach unknown styles? Also should it me more detrimental please feel free to tell so I don't make a mistake.

Thanks in advance.

I personally don't see your choices as slim, you have three schools right by your house, that have different arts. A punching and kicking art, a grappling and throwing art, and a mixed martial art system, I don't really see that as slim. Considering that other schools are 2 hours away which when you have a family or a job/home that kind of plants you in your area I'd take them out of the equation.

Concerning unknown styles, I'd think about what I asked before
1) What do you want to get out of it? Just the love of learning about martial arts is pretty vague.

2) What do you plan to do with all of the extra knowledge?

3) Why? After thinking about 1&2 ask yourself why?

Don't get me wrong, I love the martial arts, been involved with them for over 35 years now. I too followed a similar path like you are suggesting (although I had more access to different styles), spent $$$$'s on seminars, camps, etc. etc. learning from the best instructors, spent many more hours on the mat working with others, still cross train with others. So I understand where you might be coming from, but to be honest looking back over the whole 35+ years some of my wanting to try everything wasn't the best way because in the end I don't use it all and have forgotten some of it.

I see that looks feasible thank you, I'm already a member of the Judo and TKD schools and I wanted to expand my knowledge. The way you put it it's like going to school I go learn a few things go back home do the homework so I don't forget and then repeat. Looks good thanks for the advice.

I'd look deeper to within your current systems instead of looking outside of them to obtain better understanding. Take your understanding of Judo and see how you could apply it in your TKD, such as off balancing a person, or throwing a person when kicking. Maybe take your TKD and look to adapting your blocks and making them strikes, locks, throws or set ups for the same. There is plenty of info out there on YouTube or DVDs available to give your
inspiration or ideas. Of course you might have to look beyond pure TKD, or pure Judo and into other arts for that but if you have a solid base in one or both of those arts then you can see the similarities between different arts.

If you have a good base in one or both arts then going to a seminar is a good way to get added inspiration but I would keep it in more compatible arts and not just any art.

 

[Michele123]

Thank you Michele.
I am going to challenge you , so please don't take this the wrong way:

Are you speaking from the 'luxury' of being able to attend classes and not know what it's like to be keen yet disadvantaged from a financial point of view?

Secondly, because it may be hard to unlearn or relearn, does that mean it should never be attempted? Does not attention, dedication and determination go some way to addressing this? Even give an added sense of satisfaction when achieved?
Even students get things wrong, and can take time, even with regular instruction, to put them right, yes?

Good questions. I’d been wanting to get back into Martial Arts for a bit over 10 years before I was finally able to do so. So I do know what it’s like to not be able to study when you want to.

In addition, I still am unable to afford it financially. Once I found a school that was good, I approached the instructor about working in exchange for tuition. He agreed and it has been wonderful. In talking to other students about practice time, I think I put in 4-5x as much practice time outside of classes than the average paying student. I’ve worked just as hard at the work I’m doing in exchange for tuition.

As to your second point, I wouldn’t come down on either side of the argument there. I was just noting that it can be hard to unlearn or slightly change things that are ingrained in you. Hard, not impossible. If the sole purpose for doing this is fitness, well there are other ways to get fit. I’m not going to make the judgement call. That’s for the OP to do. I was just trying to share my experience in the hopes it would help him decide.


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[marques]

I see that looks feasible thank you, I'm already a member of the Judo and TKD schools and I wanted to expand my knowledge. The way you put it it's like going to school I go learn a few things go back home do the homework so I don't forget and then repeat. Looks good thanks for the advice.

I would go for the MMA school (or try it, at least), your last and available option. For self training, I would focus on fitness or continuing the class training (especially striking - more feasible, I think).

More is not always better.

 

[LastGasp]

Good questions. I’d been wanting to get back into Martial Arts for a bit over 10 years before I was finally able to do so. So I do know what it’s like to not be able to study when you want to.

In addition, I still am unable to afford it financially. Once I found a school that was good, I approached the instructor about working in exchange for tuition. He agreed and it has been wonderful. In talking to other students about practice time, I think I put in 4-5x as much practice time outside of classes than the average paying student. I’ve worked just as hard at the work I’m doing in exchange for tuition.

As to your second point, I wouldn’t come down on either side of the argument there. I was just noting that it can be hard to unlearn or slightly change things that are ingrained in you. Hard, not impossible. If the sole purpose for doing this is fitness, well there are other ways to get fit. I’m not going to make the judgement call. That’s for the OP to do. I was just trying to share my experience in the hopes it would help him decide.


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That's dedication, I applaud your effort.
Intrigued, what kind of work are you doing for your instructor? Associated with his school?

I posted a video elsewhere that explains some of my own motivations for getting back to MA (see the OP in my "Why I want to..." thread) - it's not just for fitness, and I suspect in wanting to learn something else, it's not the motivation for the OP either?

I've been messing around with one or two fairly basic, new-to-me techniques from videos. I've found more than one video covering the same thing, to get a little more insight into them. Some videos I think you just couldn't do this from, they're simply not detailed enough to make sure you are doing it right. But I've only really done it out of curiosity, to see how they feel. My conclusion is I don't think it is a good way of learning generally, largely because sometimes it takes working with a partner to ensure you are doing it right, and sometimes because I might have a question that the video doesn't answer. So it's not an approach I'm taking too seriously.
Easy for me, as I don't have much practice under my whitest of white belts (ex-Lau Gar though; I want to say white sash!) to confuse with!

 

[Mark Lynn]

Good questions. I’d been wanting to get back into Martial Arts for a bit over 10 years before I was finally able to do so. So I do know what it’s like to not be able to study when you want to.

In addition, I still am unable to afford it financially. Once I found a school that was good, I approached the instructor about working in exchange for tuition. He agreed and it has been wonderful. In talking to other students about practice time, I think I put in 4-5x as much practice time outside of classes than the average paying student. I’ve worked just as hard at the work I’m doing in exchange for tuition.

When you find something of value you don't want to lose it. So you work hard to keep it. Your experience isn't the first time I've heard of instructors cutting deals to help people that are strapped financially in order to take classes. As an instructor, I believe taking a chance on a student and letting them work off their tuition, who knows that student might turn out one day to be a great assistant instructor and asset to the school.

As to your second point, I wouldn’t come down on either side of the argument there. I was just noting that it can be hard to unlearn or slightly change things that are ingrained in you. Hard, not impossible. If the sole purpose for doing this is fitness, well there are other ways to get fit. I’m not going to make the judgement call. That’s for the OP to do. I was just trying to share my experience in the hopes it would help him decide.
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I agree with your post especially the part in bold text. I believe the student who wants to learn martial arts needs to have a really good reason to study it, more so than just wanting to get back into shape. Don't get me wrong getting in shape might be a by product but I don't think that should be the primary reason.

My reason for studying the arts is like a craving that doesn't end, I just really enjoy it. It is what would drive me to humbly ask an instructor to teach me when I couldn't afford his dues, and what would keep there putting forth my best effort to please the senior instructor (so he would continue to teach me, even though I wasn't paying for it). It's what drove me to give up my breaks at work so I could do research and write out my notes on what I learned at seminars and camps so I could practice and eventually teach my students, it's what drove me to spend a ton of money and time on learning and experiencing different martial systems. It's what drives me to ask my students (my private ones) if they want to work out on days when it's not their normal class time because I have time off that day etc. etc. It's always been more than just a part time hobby.

If it was just about fitness or a mere hobby then it's real easy to give up when your goals are not met; you didn't meet the fitness or weight loss goal, the instructor got on you about training in front if the class and your feelings got hurt etc. etc. If it means nothing than it is easy only practice at class.

 

[Xue Sheng]

, Chinese MA,

You do realize Chinese MA encompasses multiple styles..... here is a partial list

List of Chinese martial arts

 

[Mark Lynn]

This will probably get me some disagreements or negative ratings but since he asked.

I have a question relevant to this (for my background, see my intro thread).

I am remembering basic techniques learned from when I was a teenager. Just some kicks, punches, blocks and the one set/form that I remember (30+ years later...it was well ground into me!). I am not yet a member of any class, though it is my intention to find something to join and learn properly (i'm currently unemployed, and wish to use martial arts and general fitness training to pick myself up out of the doldrums I have let myself sink into, but currently no money available for lessons - it's a long story ).

LastGasp
You sound like you are very serious in your determination to study the martial arts, that it is more than just a passing whim or flight of fancy. So for the sake of discussion and to answer your questions (from my point of view) I'm going to assume that is what's going on.

First off studying under a qualified instructor should be your primary goal, but you aren't able to now due to your circumstances, I would try and do what Michele did and see if you can work off your tuition. But that's not the real questions you are asking.

I could not do anything in MA until I can sort a job, find a suitable class - this may not happen for a while yet...possibly a long while.
Or I can carry on limbering up and practicing what I remember, though my technique may not be perfect, and I have no one to put me right.

So my question is this:
1) Is it harder to start from scratch, nothing, no limbering, no balance work, no practicing what I remember, nada.
2) Or is it harder to iron out bad habits once ingrained?

Fair questions
1) The hardest part is really getting the courage up to go to the class and get out on the floor and be the new guy. Your the latest awkward newbie that everyone looks at and things was I that dumb, awkward, unbalanced etc.etc.? If you can get past those mental handicaps and still show up the next day and the day after etc. etc. then really what's going to be so hard about correcting basic stances, and learning to shift balance etc. etc.? Chances are it is going to be completely different than what you remember anyway. Unless you are going back to the same style. So no matter what you do you are going to have to relearn or learn new things. So to me it is the same.

As far as limbering (stretching)and balance work, I think you doing both is great and it would be useful to any art you study.

2) Yes it is but..... if you are doing a different style the difficulty will be ironing out your old style and not having it's influence in your new style. However you did you old style several years back so that shouldn't really be an issue. Unless you make it one by trying to interpret your new style in the mold or form of your old one.

I see people study for years in a particular style. Then they decide to train in something else. Surely it happens that to become proficient in the new style, they must sometimes 'unlearn' what they have been practicing for years? Or relearn a different way to do something?

Absolutely. I've cross trained in several systems, some with different ideas on what you should do. For instance in Modern Arnis we grab the stick (we treat the stick as a stick), I was told by some Pekit Tirsa practitioners (when I was training with them) that the stick is a blade and you don't grab it. That's MUCH harder than it sounds to adapt to, when teaching one style (Modern Arnis) and leaving class and then going straight to another and being a student in that class, and not doing something you've trained to do (let alone after just teaching a class to do). It' not unlearning as much as compartmentalizing techniques. When in Rome do what the Romans do.

So why, really, must one not learn alone, when nothing is available to one for whatever reasons?

Basically, I'm just itching to get going and can't afford to lol.

OK here's where people might really disagree with me. I don't think there is a problem with learning alone WHEN nothing else is available. There is no substitute for a qualified instructor, but with today's technology can a person learn from watching and practicing on their own? I believe so.

For instance in Gichin Funakoshi's book Karate Do My way of life, I believe he tells a story about how his wife use to watch him teach karate while sitting on the roof of their house. One day he's late to teach and when he gets there his wife is teaching the class. To my knowledge he made the point that she had never taken part in class. She learned through observation.

Likewise I've run into this when teaching my classes. I had one boy at 8 yrs old who came to me and as a purple belt told me he knew three kata a head (he knew his purple belt, brown belt , and his 2nd brown kata ) of his current rank blue. I told him to show me (because I didn't believe him and I really was just going to humor him). He proceeds to show me his brown and 2nd brown kata; the brown belt form he had about 60-70% correct and the 2nd brown 80-85% correct and the kicker was the 2nd brown form was backwards. Even though I don't believe in showing kata ahead in rank I did teach him those two forms afterwards.

Last night I had another boy who just promoted to blue belt and when I went to teach him his next kata he told me he knew except that last few moves. He had observed me teaching his classmates the class (Tuesday night) before and he then proceeds to show me the whole kata except for the last couple of moves I didn't show the students in the prior class.

Where they perfect no, however it was very different teaching those two boys than some of my other students who struggle with forms. Everyone is different; some people can learn from observation or visual means, some have to have their hands held, some need to get in there and get their hands dirty going at it with a partner.

Some arts are very different than others where you have to a partner to do the system with; Modern Arnis is one style like that, so is any Filipino Martial Art for that matter. But others like Karate, TKD, Chinese martial arts (?), and for that matter even Modern Arnis all have forms which can be learned without a partner. There is enough information on Google, You Tube, even books to help you to under stand the kata or forms.

Will you be perfect no, but can a person who is serious about it do it? I think they can.

Secondly, because it may be hard to unlearn or relearn, does that mean it should never be attempted? Does not attention, dedication and determination go some way to addressing this? Even give an added sense of satisfaction when achieved?
Even students get things wrong, and can take time, even with regular instruction, to put them right, yes?

I think this is a valid question. I believe so. One of the things that GM Remy use to tell us was to find someone to teach. We could be at our first seminar and only a beginner, but by teaching we took an interest in the art. Teaching lead us to explore more and examine what we are doing, over time we got better at it and better at the art but we had to start somewhere. Now I was always taught you should be a brown belt before you were to teach, but getting out and teaching helped me to cement the ideas, techniques, and concepts in my mind. So if I didn't have an instructor and I wasn't able to take lessons for whatever reason, why could I not use other means to educate my self on the martial arts. I believe it is better than giving up.

 

[LastGasp]

Mark, that's a very insightful post, thank you.
And it pretty much confirms much of what I have been thinking.
When I did Lau Gar, I was very serious about MA, read a lot about it, learned everything I could about it (even became a dab hand with nunchaku, just learning from books and whatever source I could find), immersed myself in it. It was just unfortunate that life and circumstances got in the way and prevented me from continuing in it in the way I would have liked to.

I just can't leave the things I remember alone, now that I'm back into fitness training. So it seemed logical to consider whether taking it up again would be worthwhile. If I can't find a school to take me on, likely I will just learn from other sources. I won't then much care if I'm getting it right, as long as I enjoy it. But my previous training and interest taught me some things about the finer aspects of technique that I now know how to look for in learning sources, whatever they may be.
I'll be completely honest - I've recently been looking at Jun Fan. Why? Because I like that you lead with the strong hand and foot. In my case, that seems to make great sense, when I have to protect my dodgy arm to a degree, and that the attacks are in and out fast and hard, leaving one exposed for the least time. I also like the power and feeling of dynamism that the stance gives. It feels right - Lau Gar and Karate stances do feel awkward after you've tried it for a bit. And I like the footwork generally. I can see how it could suit my 'temperament', if you like.

So yes, it still all fascinates me very much.

I have to admit, as far as joining a proper class is concerned, I still have some doubts, although I'm not so naive to think that without them I can achieve nearly so much.

 

[dvcochran]

When you find something of value you don't want to lose it. So you work hard to keep it. Your experience isn't the first time I've heard of instructors cutting deals to help people that are strapped financially in order to take classes. As an instructor, I believe taking a chance on a student and letting them work off their tuition, who knows that student might turn out one day to be a great assistant instructor and asset to the school.



I agree with your post especially the part in bold text. I believe the student who wants to learn martial arts needs to have a really good reason to study it, more so than just wanting to get back into shape. Don't get me wrong getting in shape might be a by product but I don't think that should be the primary reason.

My reason for studying the arts is like a craving that doesn't end, I just really enjoy it. It is what would drive me to humbly ask an instructor to teach me when I couldn't afford his dues, and what would keep there putting forth my best effort to please the senior instructor (so he would continue to teach me, even though I wasn't paying for it). It's what drove me to give up my breaks at work so I could do research and write out my notes on what I learned at seminars and camps so I could practice and eventually teach my students, it's what drove me to spend a ton of money and time on learning and experiencing different martial systems. It's what drives me to ask my students (my private ones) if they want to work out on days when it's not their normal class time because I have time off that day etc. etc. It's always been more than just a part time hobby.

If it was just about fitness or a mere hobby then it's real easy to give up when your goals are not met; you didn't meet the fitness or weight loss goal, the instructor got on you about training in front if the class and your feelings got hurt etc. etc. If it means nothing than it is easy only practice at class.

I would add that for a lot of people it starts out as just a way to get in shape. But if they get into a good school with a good instructor they find there is much more.

 

[Mitlov]

The Judo, TKD, and MMA are all in town 5 minutes away from my home, the other schools are very far away 2 hour drive to get to another TKD school, never-mind something more exotic. So I really just have continuous access to 3 martial arts schools.

Try all three, choose the one you like the best based upon how class are run and how you like the instructor, and train there.

As an example, I would love to train in Kyokushin karate. It doesn't exist where I live. I never would have said "I'm totally looking for a Tang Soo Do offshoot" just looking at webpages and online research, but the instructor is fantastic and I like the structure of the classes and the other folks who train there. So it's worked out really well.

 

[Michele123]

That's dedication, I applaud your effort.
Intrigued, what kind of work are you doing for your instructor? Associated with his school?

Computer work. Before becoming a mostly stay-at-home mom, I designed databases and websites for small businesses. I have custom designed a database for his school. I continue to add features whenever he thinks of something he’d like and soon we will be transitioning to working on his website.



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[Deleted member 39746]

Best advice i can give (which is helpful anyway) Find out what learning style you are, and stack the resources to that. How ever you need to branch into all styles a little to actually learn a martial art, you cant just get away with reading about it, watching it etc. You have to actually practice it. All the learning style is, is what type of media/material you process the best and worst. There are varying amounts of material used for distance study, it might work it might not. Some might be made specifically to be easily picked up if you don't have access to a actual instructor or it could be a quick money grab.



Second to that find someone to practice with and keep a objective mind.

Third try and record and note what you are doing and what effect it has on your body.


All three of them will help you if you do anything at home anyway. The second one is vital though, as you need some means to practice. I personally learn the best by doing something on someone, i cant visualize a imaginary opponent so i need something human like to represent it.