Lawful use of force or excessive?

[Haakon]

Sure enough this is going to be turned into "The Cop punched a girl because she was JAYWALKING!" UHHH...no. Thats the typical attempt to turn the bad behavior of these girls around on the cop. He had every legal right to stop them. How they behaved from that point on is on THEM!

Absolutely, it's apparently already being portrayed that way in some markets. They're editing the video down to just the punch without anything leading up to it and saying how the cop punched her for jaywalking.

From what I've heard about it, the officer has been on the job for 4 years, backup took more than 3 minutes to get there from when he called - that area is under patrolled. I don't think he used excessive force, I also think he was lucky there were only the 2 girls to deal with and not the entire group there. That could have turned very ugly for him, very quickly.

Not that it will get much play in the media, but the girl who was punched has a history of assaulting police officers already, and clearly wasn't punished hard enough since she's willing to do it again. Chances are she won't do much, if any, time for it this time either. Juveniles get less than 1 year for helping to beat someone to death in Seattle, she won't get much for this unfortunately.

 

[ratman]

Absolutely without a doubt a justified use of force. You push a cop, girl or not, a punch to your grill is not excessive. According to our departments use of force policy and procedure and the State of Ohio Police Officer Training Academy.... we can always stay one step ahead of the offender in use of force. A taser or oc may have been more "politically correct" and look better to the public but when your on the street with a bunch of thugs around you obstructing official business with no backup, you do what you got to do. Just because this thug was a chick has nothing to do with it. You wanna act like a man be prepared to get treated like one.

 

[kaizasosei]

I think it's safe to say that the officer was a fair bit harsher on the second subject/victim, much nicer to the first one. That i think is a typical human fault anyone can make. I've always admired the certain aspect of equality in the justice system itself and i believe that attempting to embody the 'law one must be able to remain somewhat more detatched from the world. It's definitely a spiritual odessey and i often wonder about what it would be like to join the police.
I think that the biggest problem was the apparent lack of clear communication before attempting to restrain which caused a startle effect. Probably, the natural resisting ability of the woman was underestimated. Communication is not only important, it is also ethical and fair not to mention effective. The clearer and more persistent the better.

I must appologize if i came off as rude in my last post in this thread as i failed to realize i was in the law enforcement section.



j

 

[jks9199]

Points taken. Could you clarify something you said for me? I had mentioned the use of OC. In this reply to me, you said that you need at least 1 hand free for that, but in your first post, you said:



It looked to me, that there was more than one opportunity, the first one being right after he hit the girl in the pink, to grab his OC.

Of course, I'm also interested in knowing the PDs use of force policy. I think that would shed some light on this as well.

In closing, I think its safe to say that you, and the other fellow LEOs on the forum, all, or should all hopefully know, that I'm certainly not anti-LEO. By all means, if he was justified in doing that, go for it. I just figured that since he had other options available to him, at the time, that he'd go for those first, before doing what he did. I'd just hate to see him get jammed up, thats all.

At the specific moment of the punch, he had to do something to back the woman in pink off to allow him other options. At that instant, I'd say that it was unlikely that he could have simply reached for OC or a baton... but after driving her back, he had a chance to do shift to a different option. It's a very dynamic thing, and the early comment was a more generic statement. The specific moment of the punch is a different question.

You can kind of compare it to maybe a sweep... Do a sweep while the opponent's weight is on the leg and they're balanced, and it's not likely to work. But that doesn't mean that you can't use a sweep at a different instant in a fight.

 

[Sukerkin]

"The Cop punched a girl because she was JAYWALKING!"

I confess that that is what I was thinking - along with a sinking feeling in my gut that almost every member on here who is an officer of the law thought that it was okay to man-handle and strike someone for a minor infraction {AFAIK that is}.

Drug dealing or murder are crimes - wandering about without a purpose is hardly in the same league. I would far rather police dealt with the first category than the second.

I know that you chaps have your rationales for policing the way that you do and that it is your country at the end of the day.

So before you all start in on me, just because I am thousands of miles away and it says "English" on my passport, that doesn't mean that I can't say that I don't like what it suggests about the very concept of policing by consent in the States.

Hopefully, having such an opinion doesn't promote a 'backlash' {or should that be a "back-fist"? } from the Thin Blue Line.

 

[ratman]

I confess that that is what I was thinking - along with a sinking feeling in my gut that almost every member on here who is an officer of the law thought that it was okay to man-handle and strike someone for a minor infraction {AFAIK that is}.

Drug dealing or murder are crimes - wandering about without a purpose is hardly in the same league. I would far rather police dealt with the first category than the second.

I know that you chaps have your rationales for policing the way that you do and that it is your country at the end of the day.

So before you all start in on me, just because I am thousands of miles away and it says "English" on my passport, that doesn't mean that I can't say that I don't like what it suggests about the very concept of policing by consent in the States.

Hopefully, having such an opinion doesn't promote a 'backlash' {or should that be a "back-fist"? } from the Thin Blue Line.

The issue isn't wandering about (jaywalking) the issue is she assaulted a police officer which is a felony crime in every state in the U.S. We don't punch people for jaywalking although there would be less of it going on if we could.

 

[jks9199]

I confess that that is what I was thinking - along with a sinking feeling in my gut that almost every member on here who is an officer of the law thought that it was okay to man-handle and strike someone for a minor infraction {AFAIK that is}.

Drug dealing or murder are crimes - wandering about without a purpose is hardly in the same league. I would far rather police dealt with the first category than the second.

I know that you chaps have your rationales for policing the way that you do and that it is your country at the end of the day.

So before you all start in on me, just because I am thousands of miles away and it says "English" on my passport, that doesn't mean that I can't say that I don't like what it suggests about the very concept of policing by consent in the States.

Hopefully, having such an opinion doesn't promote a 'backlash' {or should that be a "back-fist"? } from the Thin Blue Line.

No, she wasn't punched for jaywalking.

The first woman, in black, was grabbed and detained because, when stopped for jaywalking, she refused to obey the officer's commands, and then resisted his control. I'm pretty confident that even British cops () would take action where someone to walk away when they were being confronted about a violation of law.

The second woman, who got punched, was struck because she interfered in the situation with the first girl. At that point, she's interfering in the lawful duties of the officer, and presenting a serious threat to his safety. It's become a two-on-one fight, AND there's a crowd that could easily join in. Immediate, decisive action was necessary. He could (and arguably should!) have used even more force.

 

[Sukerkin]

I actually don't think we have fundamentally different views on this issue. We might be talking about different aspects of the same thing as I was broad-brushing a 'macro-scale' socio-political view rather than, as would have been more proper given the 'target' of the thread, a more microcosmic view of the tactical situation.

Nonetheless, I appreciate your point of view and, as ever, applaud the logical and reasonable way you put that view across

Like others here who are qualified to voice a more professional opinion than mine, I think that the judgement excercised by the officer in question was poor from the start.

Now that I have had time to read the whole thread tho' and absorb the full timbre of the encounter, I don't feel so strongly about the 'wrongness' of the officers actions.

That doesn't mean I think he was right or that I completely aquiesce to the majority view of the officers here that it's okay to police in such a fashion but neither do I think that there is yet a need to issue little silver collar flashes ... not just yet at any rate .

 

[MA-Caver]

Mark, as I saw it and read the article and posts here... Jaywalking is a minor infraction of the law (and it's there for public safety... I got hit by a small truck because I dashed out to cross the street in order to catch a bus... could've been killed)... and likely the girl would've gotten either a verbal warning or a simple ticket ... HAD she simply cooperated with the officer and quietly acquiesce to his commands (which likely would've been more along the lines of "come here, I need to talk to you." I can guess she KNEW she was jaywalking (a LOT of people know about it and do it anyway thinking cops aren't watching) and didn't want to get a ticket so she tried to ignore him.
At which point the officer needed to up the ante by asserting his authority when he sees someone breaking the law, however minor.
Arguing with an officer over a clear infraction is just plain stupid. Arguing is best done in Court.
Yelling and cursing at a cop is just plain stupid. It not only shows disrespect for their authority but adds stress to the situation, stress to the officer, who already has enough stress through the day anyway.
If the officer feels that the situation merits an arrest and you disagree then a cooler head would be to request that a supervisor be sent to the area to discuss the situation. Granted that the officer has the option to refuse for whatever reason. Or simply go on downtown and hash it out and deal with it in court.
These points of course are for the cooler heads in the world. There aren't that many sad to say. So probably already hyped up from something totally unrelated the girl finds out she's going to get a ticket and argues the point, bringing her emotions to THAT situation instead of rationally separating them.
Cop wants to arrest and she RESISTS... another stupid STUPID move. Resisting just aggravates the cop even more (especially getting yelled at and verbally abused to begin with and HE's supposed to remain calm throughout... yeah right).
2nd girl throwing into the mix just raised the stakes even higher. As mentioned by the other officers here he's now out-numbered.

What I can't figure is why this particular cop and many others aren't trained for effective take-down techniques. The video clearly shows he had no control what-so-ever of the girl in black and he couldn't maintain control. She kept twisting on out of his grip... tying up BOTH hands. Clearly (to me anyway) there was a lack of training. Maybe he was/is trained and knew that whatever technique he could have applied would've seriously hurt the girl... which would've gotten him into more serious hot water.

I dunno... But I do agree with what someone else here said... should've radioed for back up at the first opportunity.

 

[Sukerkin]

I agree entirely with the quite obvious foolishness of the actions of the lady in question.

I think I am attempting to address a point that is not properly pertinent to this particular issue i.e. that the escalation of events was understandable and legal but that perhaps it would have been better to excercise a little judgement and let it go rather than get all Cartman about it.

 

[Carol]

That doesn't mean I think he was right or that I completely aquiesce to the majority view of the officers here that it's okay to police in such a fashion but neither do I think that there is yet a need to issue little silver collar flashes ... not just yet at any rate .

The LEOs out west are not enforcing jaywalking tickets because they're trying to show neighborhood kids who's boss. They're enforcing jaywalking tickets because the mayor depends on it as a source of revenue generation (insert gratuitous public safety comment here). In other words Suke....its not about the power, its about the money. :lol:

 

[MJS]

At the specific moment of the punch, he had to do something to back the woman in pink off to allow him other options. At that instant, I'd say that it was unlikely that he could have simply reached for OC or a baton... but after driving her back, he had a chance to do shift to a different option. It's a very dynamic thing, and the early comment was a more generic statement. The specific moment of the punch is a different question.

You can kind of compare it to maybe a sweep... Do a sweep while the opponent's weight is on the leg and they're balanced, and it's not likely to work. But that doesn't mean that you can't use a sweep at a different instant in a fight.

I see what you're saying. Of course, this is why I hate to Monday morning QB things like this. Why? Because its easy to say what they should/should not have done, but when you're really out there, dealing with these knuckleheads, its a whole different story.

On a side note...I emailed this video to a good friend and inst. of mine. He's a Capt. in the DOC, here in CT. He made mention of the kid with the fancy designs cut into his hair. There were at least 2 times, while the cop was dealing with those girls, that it appeared like he was contemplating attacking the cop. I hadn't noticed that when I was watching it.

 

[DavidCC]

I agree entirely with the quite obvious foolishness of the actions of the lady in question.

I think I am attempting to address a point that is not properly pertinent to this particular issue i.e. that the escalation of events was understandable and legal but that perhaps it would have been better to excercise a little judgement and let it go rather than get all Cartman about it.

Let it go?

an Officer stops a woman for a minor violation, she cusses him out and walks away and he should let it go?

 

[Steve]

The LEOs out west are not enforcing jaywalking tickets because they're trying to show neighborhood kids who's boss. They're enforcing jaywalking tickets because the mayor depends on it as a source of revenue generation (insert gratuitous public safety comment here). In other words Suke....its not about the power, its about the money. :lol:

In this particular case, based on what I've heard locally on the radio, the officers were enforcing jaywalking at the request of Franklin HS. I know that intersection well, and it's a dangerous one. There's a passover that's been there for a long time, but kids routinely run across the street rather than trudge up and over.

 

[Archangel M]

The LEOs out west are not enforcing jaywalking tickets because they're trying to show neighborhood kids who's boss. They're enforcing jaywalking tickets because the mayor depends on it as a source of revenue generation (insert gratuitous public safety comment here). In other words Suke....its not about the power, its about the money. :lol:

In this particular case, based on what I've heard locally on the radio, the officers were enforcing jaywalking at the request of Franklin HS. I know that intersection well, and it's a dangerous one. There's a passover that's been there for a long time, but kids routinely run across the street rather than trudge up and over.

Steve beat me too it.

Carol, while what you said is a common perception, when it comes to situations like this one it is routinely what Steve just described.

Someone complains about a situation, like Jaywalking in front of the school...most likely to the Chief of Police or the Mayor/Supervisor who then passes it to the Chief. Their complaint has as much right to be addressed by us as anybody elses, jaywalking IS illegal.

So a Sergeant assigns an officer to address the complaint. Probably with orders to advise and if necessary cite violators. The officer follows orders and goes to the location. So what happens? Some loudmouth (with an alleged history of this sort of behavior I have heard) who probably was going to get a warning now is going to get a ticket..but no she wont stay around for that and gets disorderly to boot. The officer tries to arrest her and she resists and her friend shoves him.

Now we have people trying to frame things as "Out of control officer punched girl for Jaywalking". The more I deal with people the less I understand how they think.

 

[kaizasosei]

I really think it would have been enough to tell the second lady to BACK OFF really forcefully, then he could have returned to the first problem probably with even more authority. I'm sure most will have to agree that had there been some crazy cophating punk out there, that punch would have been his cue to move in or start blastin. So in that sense it was not overly bright on the part of the single man either.

The girl who initially was being addressed should have been controlled more with the voice and then taken down briskly. She was being very offensive to the officer from what we could see on the vid. Not sure what happened before that and the exact words.
Ultimately i guess those two ladies handled things worst of all. The policeman was most stressed and they were playing it. Not knowing is half the problem.
I think as a strong man, and i don't mean just physically, he should have been able to deal with these two without creating a mess of it all and coming away looking bad. Plus it's not only cameras, a human being has a conscience that doesn't get erased or purged so easily.
So no choice but believe in ones actions or repent in remorse. If so rightfully smack your obstacle in the face, take a punch for a friend and wrestle with a demon if you like.
Thanks be to God that there was no more bloodshed than there was.

Watching it again, it seemed like the officer was correct in uping the level of force according to his ability. Voice probably would not have been enough at that stage.. strange i didn't notice this so much the first time, but they were not just resisting they were defending against the officer by choosing to fight him off. Some really inexperienced or triggerhappy officer could possibly shoot confronted with such a situation.


j

 

[Carol]

Steve beat me too it.

Carol, while what you said is a common perception, when it comes to situations like this one it is routinely what Steve just described.

Someone complains about a situation, like Jaywalking in front of the school...most likely to the Chief of Police or the Mayor/Supervisor who then passes it to the Chief. Their complaint has as much right to be addressed by us as anybody elses, jaywalking IS illegal.

So a Sergeant assigns an officer to address the complaint. Probably with orders to advise and if necessary cite violators. The officer follows orders and goes to the location. So what happens? Some loudmouth (with an alleged history of this sort of behavior I have heard) who probably was going to get a warning now is going to get a ticket..but no she wont stay around for that and gets disorderly to boot. The officer tries to arrest her and she resists and her friend shoves him.

Thanks for the insight...and for the correction. :asian:

Now we have people trying to frame things as "Out of control officer punched girl for Jaywalking". The more I deal with people the less I understand how they think.

"If it bleeds, it leads." As cliche as it sounds...its still accurate.

 

[Archangel M]

Bottom line.

The punch worked and most likely was within his departmental guidelines in terms of their force continuum.

 

[Sukerkin]

Let it go?

an Officer stops a woman for a minor violation, she cusses him out and walks away and he should let it go?

It all depends on what you want out of your police force.

If you want them to enforce all the laws all the time, then no, clearly not.

If you want them to excercise their judgement as to what truly constitutes them doing their job, then yes.

I don't for a second think that LEO's don't make that sort of call every day of their working lives.

 

[Archangel M]

When all someone has to do to avoid police interaction is to act like an *** and get away with it we may as well hand over the keys and pick up the fiddle while things burn.

The "scream and tantrum my way out of an arrest" tactic is an old one. You don't get away with that tactic with me on the street.