Lame wing tsun vs wing chun fight

[Hanzou]

The Gracies are proved correct once again.

What a terrible display. And yet, such displays are common among "masters" of certain types of martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not sure why the fact that it is a wide-open space makes any difference, even though wing chun is close-range. That is what closing the distance is all about.

The same way a person closes the distance in a small space is not the same way a person closes the distance in an open area.

 

[wingchun100]

Okay...still not seeing the point. If you train to be a kicker, then you learn how to get to that range. Same goes for punching and grappling range. It's not enough to learn how to use the techniques. You also need to learn how to control space. That goes for whether you bridge the gap from a long OR short distance.

 

[guy b]

The tall guy must be Phobius doing his "bridging" methods.

Lots of excellent "bridging" in that clip

 

[JowGaWolf]

Okay...still not seeing the point. If you train to be a kicker, then you learn how to get to that range. Same goes for punching and grappling range. It's not enough to learn how to use the techniques. You also need to learn how to control space. That goes for whether you bridge the gap from a long OR short distance.

You might not see the difference but it's there. This is why some boxer can stay on the outside while their opponent is unable to get close enough to get their inside game on.

 

[Hanzou]

Not sure why this is considered lame? You are looking at a fight in an open space and both systems are close area combat systems and are trained as such. If anything it just shows a limitation that everyone knows about the system.

It's probably considered "lame" because it's mostly "slap-fu" and people chasing each other around until they end up on the ground.

The fact that they're fighting in an open space shouldn't effect their overall fighting ability. Further, a fighting system should contain solid gap closers

I bet their forms look really good.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The fact that they're fighting in an open space shouldn't effect their overall fighting ability.

It shouldn't but, in reality it affects more than just those guys, and people in other systems. The fact that there is training that teaches how to close the gap shows just how much of an issue this is for many fighters.

If I always train to fight someone at a distance then I will have problem fighting close up. If I always train to fight close up then I'll have trouble trying to close the gap because I have not trained to do so. I actually have video of fellow classmates who have a good game at a distance but when the fighting got closed, they did horribly. I have a classmate who does an excellent job in attacking but has a difficult time in defending when I return the favor with a high pressure attack.

If you don't train how to close the gap then you'll be bad at it. If you only train to fight people up close then you'll have trouble when your opponent is highly evasive.

 

[Hanzou]

It shouldn't but, in reality it affects more than just those guys, and people in other systems. The fact that there is training that teaches how to close the gap shows just how much of an issue this is for many fighters.

If I always train to fight someone at a distance then I will have problem fighting close up. If I always train to fight close up then I'll have trouble trying to close the gap because I have not trained to do so. I actually have video of fellow classmates who have a good game at a distance but when the fighting got closed, they did horribly. I have a classmate who does an excellent job in attacking but has a difficult time in defending when I return the favor with a high pressure attack.

If you don't train how to close the gap then you'll be bad at it. If you only train to fight people up close then you'll have trouble when your opponent is highly evasive.

So are you saying that WC/VT lacks good gap closing training, or that these two were particularly bad at closing the gap?

Just for comparison's sake, Bjj also trains people to fight up close, but our gap closers look far better than that.

Also it should be noted that those two didn't look particularly good when they were fighting up close either.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So are you saying that WC/VT lacks good gap closing training, or that these two were particularly bad at closing the gap?

I'm saying that they were bad at closing the gap.

I would go as far as saying BJJ specializes in closing the gap. They don't chase people around. One of the basic understandings of closing the gap is not to chase your opponent. The faster you chase the more likely they will run. Instead BJJ practitioners are like alligators / crocodiles in that they stalk their opponent and move in such a way that gives a false sense of security that you can quickly get away because they are stalking so slowly. I'm not sure if you seen any of these animals run, but they can run and move surprisingly fast over a short distance. They only need about 5 or 6 feet to clamp down on their prey. BJJ practitioners are just like this. Their grappling range is actually longer than the striking range. Meaning that they don't have to be within striking range to execute a grappling attack.

So in terms of BJJ closing the gap is a major part of what they do. With striking, if my arm or leg can't reach you then I'm fairly safe from a strike by you (unless there is a big height difference). With grapplers being out of striking range does not mean a person is out of grappling range.

Also it should be noted that those two didn't look particularly good when they were fighting up close either.

I can't argue with that either. I expected more from "Wing Chun Masters" in the close striking game simply because that is supposed to be their area of expertise. I've seen non-wing chun masters do better with wing chun than what was shown in that video. But then again it boils down to the person and their training or lack of it.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm saying that they were bad at closing the gap.

I can't argue with that either. I expected more from "Wing Chun Masters" in the close striking game simply because that is supposed to be their area of expertise. I've seen non-wing chun masters do better with wing chun than what was shown in that video. But then again it boils down to the person and their training or lack of it.

Well then why are you confused about someone calling this fight "lame"?

 

[Tez3]

Judging any style from practitioners who aren't very good is never a good idea. Sadly it seems those who aren't very good are the ones keen on posting videos up.

 

[Juany118]

Judging any style from practitioners who aren't very good is never a good idea. Sadly it seems those who aren't very good are the ones keen on posting videos up.

This I see as related to the growing trend, on both sides of the pond, to ignore not only experts but the direct experience of others. People can go online, find videos, blogs, articles etc that support an uninformed opinion and they get what appears to be confirmation of same.

 

[Hanzou]

Judging any style from practitioners who aren't very good is never a good idea. Sadly it seems those who aren't very good are the ones keen on posting videos up.

The two in the video were "masters" who are no doubt instructing other people in the art of Wing Chun. Unfortunately those two are far from the only examples of "masters" in Chinese martial arts who showcase lackluster skill.

How else should we judge a style that allows people like that to teach others?

Here's yet another example;

 

[Juany118]

I'm saying that they were bad at closing the gap.

I would go as far as saying BJJ specializes in closing the gap. They don't chase people around. One of the basic understandings of closing the gap is not to chase your opponent. The faster you chase the more likely they will run. Instead BJJ practitioners are like alligators / crocodiles in that they stalk their opponent and move in such a way that gives a false sense of security that you can quickly get away because they are stalking so slowly. I'm not sure if you seen any of these animals run, but they can run and move surprisingly fast over a short distance. They only need about 5 or 6 feet to clamp down on their prey. BJJ practitioners are just like this. Their grappling range is actually longer than the striking range. Meaning that they don't have to be within striking range to execute a grappling attack.

So in terms of BJJ closing the gap is a major part of what they do. With striking, if my arm or leg can't reach you then I'm fairly safe from a strike by you (unless there is a big height difference). With grapplers being out of striking range does not mean a person is out of grappling range.

I can't argue with that either. I expected more from "Wing Chun Masters" in the close striking game simply because that is supposed to be their area of expertise. I've seen non-wing chun masters do better with wing chun than what was shown in that video. But then again it boils down to the person and their training or lack of it.

WC, in terms of their techniques, is very effective in closing for the simple fact that it needs to be close to be wholely effective. The problem, imo, is more about training. I have noticed that many people have an issue being in close and so hesitate, or fail to commit period, to bridging. I put it on training because many of these people don't train hard enough and/or their instructor doesn't push them to overcome this mental block. Since WC has techniques that you can "fall back" on when you don't bridge it can create issues where as wrestling, BJJ etc you HAVE to bridge, no choice, so people either get really good at it or move on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have noticed that many people have an issue being in close and so hesitate, or fail to commit period, to bridging.

I actually get on, lecture, and constantly tell my classmates about the importance about not hesitating on committing to a technique. Trusting in a technique 100% and committing fully to doing the technique is one of the scariest things to do in Kung Fu. If I had to list the biggest problems in martial arts it would be people bailing out of techniques because they don't trust the technique.

 

[Tez3]

constantly tell my classmate

Does he/she ever feel picked on?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does he/she ever feel picked on?

hmmm. slight typo with classmates (correction made) and yes they feel picked on ha ha ha.

 

[drop bear]

Judging any style from practitioners who aren't very good is never a good idea. Sadly it seems those who aren't very good are the ones keen on posting videos up.

Is that the case though? I hear that a lot that for some reason you tube only shows bad martial arts. Or that since the invention of camera phones martial arts has somehow deteriorated.

Acutally I can attest to that. Because the other night I was out at the club being entertaining and awesome. But looking at the phone footage it only showed me being a drunken duchebag.

So there probably is a link to camera phones only showing the worst of people.

 

[drop bear]

WC, in terms of their techniques, is very effective in closing for the simple fact that it needs to be close to be wholely effective. The problem, imo, is more about training. I have noticed that many people have an issue being in close and so hesitate, or fail to commit period, to bridging. I put it on training because many of these people don't train hard enough and/or their instructor doesn't push them to overcome this mental block. Since WC has techniques that you can "fall back" on when you don't bridge it can create issues where as wrestling, BJJ etc you HAVE to bridge, no choice, so people either get really good at it or move on.

Ok. It isnt the amount of space or the time of day or the humidity of the floor that makes you fight like garbage.

 

[Juany118]

Is that the case though? I hear that a lot that for some reason you tube only shows bad martial arts. Or that since the invention of camera phones martial arts has somehow deteriorated.

Acutally I can attest to that. Because the other night I was out at the club being entertaining and awesome. But looking at the phone footage it only showed me being a drunken duchebag.

So there probably is a link to camera phones only showing the worst of people.

And as I said elsewhere, occasionally good video has been shown, you then simply claim it isn't WC, even though others see that it is or the person themselves goes into exhaustive detail explaining and demonstrating that it is. A dang convenient way to argue a point.