Kyusho Jitsu

[Matt Stone]

I also have a question here: If kyosho training is specifically geared toward "one touch" defense, what happens if it doesn't work?

Exactly the point of testing your ability to apply this method at full tilt boogie instead of assuming that, since it works on people while standing still, it will work at full speed and full power. Big difference between a stationary target and a target moving even at slow speed, much less one barrelling toward you in an attempt to rip your head from your shoulders...

Where does this leave the student who hasn't mastered the art, in terms of defensive capabilities? Are there other techniques incorporated into the repertoire such as blocking, kicking, locking, trapping, etc.? Or should this system be learned as an add on to other arts?

From what little background I have in this subject...

Of course there are blocks, kicks, etc. Vital point striking is included in nearly every traditional art, sometimes encoded in the forms, sometimes passed down so simply that you don't even know you are doing it, sometimes in such a watered down format it no longer amounts to vital point striking at all. In Yiliquan, we learn where vital point targets are so that when we strike (be it the body, the head or the limbs) we strike at places that will maximize the damage. It is less "I'll hit Stomach point 289, Gall Bladder 912, Pancreas 766, Prostate 112, etc.," and more knowing that striking certain places are far more effective in producing a variety of effects than others.

Learning it as an "add on" or "plug in" will take it out of contextual relationship with the art you already know. It won't hurt you to learn it, but it'll take a while to integrate the points into what you already do...

Please excuse me, but I'm quite ignorant on this topic.

Doesn't stop some people from lecturing about it, and it doesn't stop others from teaching it. Ask away...

 

[ppko]

If anyone has any serious questions about Kyusho Jitsu you can ask but I will not reply to any more questions against DKI


PPKO

 

[Matt Stone]

If anyone has any serious questions about Kyusho Jitsu you can ask but I will not reply to any more questions against DKI


PPKO

And there you go... :idunno:

Okay, serious question then (not that my previous ones weren't serious, but apparently your definition and mine conflict)...

What is the mechanism by which your knock outs are effected? Why do you use multiple point strikes? How is the diameter of the impact zone around a strike point determined? What methods of training do you utilize to develop the striking weapons (e.g. knuckles, etc.)? How much force do you employ to activate a striking point?

Thanks in advance for your reply...

:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

I wanna get some before this thread gets locked... %-}

PPKO (Pressure Point Knock Out?) -


:asian:

This is great! Just like old times!

 

[Matt Stone]

This is great! Just like old times!

Ain't it though?

I don't plan on posting too often, nor interrupting discussions overly much, but this one was just too tasty to pass up...

I'm waiting for the next "ding" on my reputation points for being such a bad, bad man...

I wish I knew where PPKO lived and trained. Not because I want to attack him or anything of the sort - I just want him to try his KO on me. It's been a long time since I got to see the ceiling from that particular vantage point...

%-}

 

[Flatlander]

If anyone has any serious questions about Kyusho Jitsu you can ask but I will not reply to any more questions against DKI


PPKO

Then do so, please, I have a few if you look a few posts back....

 

[James Kovacich]

Ain't it though?

I don't plan on posting too often, nor interrupting discussions overly much, but this one was just too tasty to pass up...

I'm waiting for the next "ding" on my reputation points for being such a bad, bad man...

I wish I knew where PPKO lived and trained. Not because I want to attack him or anything of the sort - I just want him to try his KO on me. It's been a long time since I got to see the ceiling from that particular vantage point...

%-}

Mosly I just peep in the forums. I think what you and robert offer is what I liked the most.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Ain't it though?

I don't plan on posting too often, nor interrupting discussions overly much, but this one was just too tasty to pass up...

I'm waiting for the next "ding" on my reputation points for being such a bad, bad man...

I wish I knew where PPKO lived and trained. Not because I want to attack him or anything of the sort - I just want him to try his KO on me. It's been a long time since I got to see the ceiling from that particular vantage point...

%-}

Matt,

Only because you stated you are waiting for it.

DING! :asian: I figured a public post of it would also meet your requests.


It is good to keep an open mind and to be willing to experience the technique to see if it works.

:asian:

 

[RRouuselot]

Robert,

Sorry to interrupt...



I have a technical question.



So Atemi is the practice of knocking out your opponent through pressure points, and Kyusho is "1 touch 1 kill" through pressure points? Is this correct?



If so, how do you road test Kyusho (assuming that going around and killing isn't an option)? I mean...how does it "work" period? If your not comfortable answering that one publically, please PM me. Also, what's the language translation of each, as I know that your well versed in language.



Thanks!

How do you “road test” Kyusho……well personally I like to use members of DKI that visit my dojo. (joking) Although they do get “schooled” in the difference between the two when they do visit............



The loose definition of Atemi is point/target, and for Kyusho it’s vital point.



Atemi strikes are used to stun an attacker and give the body a shock, brachial strike for example. Most Atemi techniques are done on the limbs where as most kyusho are done on the body cavity……which obviously houses organs and such therefore making the strikes more dangerous and “potentially” lethal.

Also, the way Atemi and kyusho points are struck is different which I will not go into for several reasons. One is I am not sure who is reading this……

I would also like to add that one shouldn’t train in pressure point techniques only and neglect other aspects of the art (which seems to be the case for some dojo)…….i.e. the basics….things like foort work, blocks, etc.

I will try to answer some of the other questions later, but now I have to scoot off to work.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Folks lets bring this back to the original post. Someone has offered to discuss varrious points and application lets do so.
I started a thread a while back just for this lets use it and see what ideas , knowledge, and differences of application can be used and gained.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14767
If you do not like the point I picked out please pick one yourslef and lets have some knowledge given and recieved.

==================================================

MOD NOTE
As for this thread
This is not a bash Dillman thread
please keep the disscussion polite and friendly.

tshadowchaser
sheldon bedell

 

[tshadowchaser]

Mod Note

It is not the policy of MartialTalk to allow any person or group to be Bashed.
Such procedure is against the rules of this forum.
please keep all discussions polite and friendly

tshadowchaser
sheldon bedell

 

[Matt Stone]

I'll apologize for my unabashed bashing of G. Dillman. His record stands for itself. However, I will maintain that in this particular instance it was apparent that PPKO had no knowledge of Dillman's prior history other than what PPKO was told by his instructors and/or Dillman.

PPKO wanted to discuss pressure point use. I am all for it. But let's discuss how pressure points are used against attackers that mean to do you harm, not against compliant, non-resisting, crash-test dummies... Ultimately, there is a difference in how the points are applied because of that particular dynamic.


:duel:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sure, impolite bashing isn't nice. But, don't the moderators also have some responsibility to make sure that unsubstantiated claims of martial arts magic receive the critical scrutiny they deserve? Don't the moderators have some responsibility to point out that some practices are inherently unsafe, inneffective, or are just plain nonsense?

 

[vincehardy3]

I would suggest starting another thread that deals specifically with pressure point striking. I agree that striking a person that is submissive (in a prone position) doesn't prove anything. The real test is in a real world or controlled atmosphere application.

With pressure points we need to realize that it is a very dangerous "art". It is something that should be taught by a qualified instructor, and training in the class setting should be facilitated by a qualified instructor. Understand that with pressure points there are areas that can be seized and/or struck, and/or broken. So know that points can be catagorized accordingly as seizing points, disabling points, killing points, etc. Some points are harder to get to than others, and some points require a specific application of technique in order to be effective.

So, I would suggest letting this be a starting point. I have been taught this by my instructor, and I don't mind discussing general matters. I won't go into the deep stuff. It isn't mystical or anything like that. It just comes down to knowing the body, and how it reacts to trauma.

Vince

 

[RHD]

Sure, impolite bashing isn't nice. But, don't the moderators also have some responsibility to make sure that unsubstantiated claims of martial arts magic receive the critical scrutiny they deserve? Don't the moderators have some responsibility to point out that some practices are inherently unsafe, inneffective, or are just plain nonsense?

Would that be Pandora's Box I just heard creaking open? :idunno:

Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Sure, impolite bashing isn't nice. But, don't the moderators also have some responsibility to make sure that unsubstantiated claims of martial arts magic receive the critical scrutiny they deserve? Don't the moderators have some responsibility to point out that some practices are inherently unsafe, inneffective, or are just plain nonsense?

Nope. To be blunt, we aint paid enough to wade through all the BS every wannabe with an inkjet and a scrap of cloth puts us through. If you are a prospective student, you need to take the time to check out an instructors credentials yourself. Use the forums, use the local BBB, check other schools, etc. If you just walk in, sign up and think you're gonna "boot some head", well.....there are a lot of "Ed Grubberman"'s out there, y'know? Buyer Beware.

If there is a question/concern/etc. about a system, art, or artist, the "Horror" forum is the best place to raise it. Our mission is not to 'Bust Frauds', but to allow a friendly enviroment for discussion, much like relaxing after a seminar, or in someones living room.

Would that be Pandora's Box I just heard creaking open?

Maybe. But its a point that has been covered here before. MT's mission is the friendly discussion of the arts, not the credential verification board. My background is in the FMA. I've neither the credentials, experience or education to determine if someone outside my area of experience is 'ok'.

For our Official Policy on Frauds, Fraud Busting, and Credential checks, please see here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8708

The questions on George Dillman's legitimacy, background, sanity, etc should probably be examined in the "Horror" forum.

The questions on pressure points, their theory and application is ok here, but may also be better suited for one of our other forums.

Questions on TCM should also probably be done in a different forum, and if none are really appropriate, with enough interest, I would gladly set one up.

:asian:

 

[RRouuselot]

I also have a question here: If kyosho training is specifically geared toward "one touch" defense, what happens if it doesn't work?

Actually, the sole purpose of kyusho is not a so called “one touch” defense. This unfortunately has been perpetuated by folks that are not skilled nor very knowledgeable in kyusho.

The main purpose of kyusho/atemi type arts is to stop the attack as fast as possible without doing much permanent damage to the attacker. Basically keeping the damage to the bare minimum.

If you beat the crap out of someone then they will just dislike you even more than when they attacked you. If you don’t hurt them so badly and help them change their mind and possibly improve their ways you have not only helped that person but also society.

Where does this leave the student who hasn't mastered the art, in terms of defensive capabilities?

It leaves them doing very poor techniques as can be seen in several afore mentioned mpegs.

You will fight the way you train. If you never take the time to learn proper foot work, hand motion/positioning, power, focus, speed, timing etc you will NEVER be good at kyusho/atemi arts. Where does one gain skill in those things…….basic training. I noticed in many of the mpegs on a certain site I can’t name because it might be considered “bashing” that the defender’s body position was poor, the foot work was sometimes opposite of what it should have been to produce a better defensive technique. Often the hand position was off as well. By watching this kind of basic movement of someone you can start to get an insight as to their skill level and the effectiveness of their techniques in a real life situation.

Are there other techniques incorporated into the repertoire such as blocking, kicking, locking, trapping, etc.? Or should this system be learned as an add on to other arts?

In my particular art (Okinawan Karate) they are not separate arts but all part of the same art and should be used together and not pieced apart. It’s much easier to stand on 2 legs then 1 right? Well if think of one leg being basics and the other leg being advanced techniques you will have better balance and strength. (Sorry for the poor metaphor)

 

[Flatlander]

Thank you sir for the reply. So to carry forward, then, you stated that the primary objective here is to stop an attack without seriously damaging the opponent. Through what "mechanism" is this accomplished? Through pain in the pressure points, or do you target immobilization points, etc.? Sorry for my ignorance, but as expressed before, I have zero exposure to this art, but am eager to expand my martial vocabulary.

 

[Matt Stone]

Some points cause intense, immobilizing pain. Some points temporarily stun the opponent with enough pain to force natural, instinctive reactions. Some points cause structural damage, eliminating the ability to continue to fight. Some points render the attacker unconscious.

It all depends... The endless "what if" question, right?

For example -

One of my favorite striking points is located on the head of the humerus, and is exposed when the arm is retracted rearward (as in withdrawing it opposite the punching hand in a traditional reverse punch). This retraction causes the anterior head of the deltoid muscle to stretch and thin out, exposing the musculocutaneous nerve running directly beneath it (and directly over the head of the humerus). Hitting the tip of the shoulder, even with a relatively light but solid blow, when it is so positioned causes quite a bit of discomfort and an inability to use the arm effectively for quite a while. A hard blow will render the arm nearly useless for several minutes - far long enough to deal with whatever else the opponent may have in store for you.

We call that point "shoulder cutting," and is roughly equivalently located to LI 15. It isn't that we are striking the acupuncture point (though it certainly does get struck), it is simply an anatomical target.

I like to employ this point when approached with a low line punch or hook.

Assuming my attacker is attacking with a right punch, I present my left arm, moving it parallel to the ground, perpendicular to the punching arm of my opponent, deflecting his punch downward (so it is sloppily similar to a low block, but not quite - it is more of a forearm smash, moving into the wrap) as I wrap my left arm through his elbow crease and under his armpit. This gets the opponent into a "chicken wing," half nelson position, and we are nearly side by side, shoulder to shoulder. As I wrap my arm up and around, retracting his arm rearward as described above, the "shoulder cutting" point is exposed. So, placing my left hand on the opponent's right shoulder blade, I "punch my own hand" through his "shoulder cutting" point.

From that initial strike I move on into other more debilitating strikes to incapacitate the opponent.

 

[RRouuselot]

Thank you sir for the reply. So to carry forward, then, you stated that the primary objective here is to stop an attack without seriously damaging the opponent. Through what "mechanism" is this accomplished? Through pain in the pressure points, or do you target immobilization points, etc.? Sorry for my ignorance, but as expressed before, I have zero exposure to this art, but am eager to expand my martial vocabulary.

Actually through both pain and immobilization. The primary objective is always to stop an attack in any defensive situation…… Certain types of strikes to certain areas will cause temporary paralysis or a reaction similar to hitting your “funny bone”……others may cause something similar to the feeling you get when the wind is knocked out of you, except it can feel 100 times worse……others may just knock you out. I have yet to see anyone actually die from being hit with kyusho.

Being hit in a pressure point can send a shock wave type feeling through an entire limb or area depending on how hard and at what angle the strike is done.

(Matt, you may recall this angle thing from the strikes to the arm/bicep we went over)

Striking points can be used to stop an attack entirely or deflect it so that a different defense can be used if need be…….it all depends on the situation…….which varies with each attack. Having said that......everything should flow from one technique to the next and should not be "canned" or look as if it came out of a cookie cutter. Your first move should lead into the next and so on and so on. Hence the need for "kumiawase".