Kyusho, Dim Mak, Meridians and Points

[thetruth]

As far as I can tell, this is the theory that most of the work being done by Pantazzi and Corn within KI is based on. Analysis of traditional kata.


On the other hand, I have worked with an internal kung-fu guy (yi li quan) and from his perspective, he can project his strike internally where he wants it, to him every spot on your body is a pressure point, and he demonstrated this ability on my own body, it's a whole other level...

-D

I have a question. As far as I am aware Evan Pantazi was a students of George. George had no lineage to Okinawa. How do you know that the kata Evan and Jim are breaking down are the original traditional kata? Even if the kata is changed slightly then what they are breaking down is incorrect.

There is a bit more to correct application of pressure points than just looking at strikes, checking what points are near the strike, checking on the order in the kata and whacking away. Each to his own though and if you are getting what you want from your style David just keep on punching dude and enjoy it.

Also I would like to feel this internal kung fu guy as just because you felt doesn't mean anything. Pressure points tend to work far more often and effectively on the students putting their faith in them. If this guy can't do this internal business on EVERYONE then it's hit and miss and just more dillmanesque marketing mumbo jumbo.

Lastly just to let you know, I don't train in any art with pressure points any more I did for 7 years and slowly as I woke up the many flaws of the dillman method bacame apparent. I have spoken to many people since leaving that school and have found that we were not getting the whole picture.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[DavidCC]

how does anyone know any kata can be traced back to anywhere?

:deadhorse

George had no lineage to Okinawa

Can you prove that? Googling I can only find this, describing Dillman's pre-pressure-point training, which clearly IS a link to Okinawa.

What the book called 'Martial Arts, Traditions History And People has to say about George Dillman:
They say that George Dillman began his karate training in 1960 under Robert Tieu an Okinawan Kempo stylist in Fort Knox, KY. He received his black belt in this style from Charles Cant. The book says that he has studied Issinryu with Harry Smith and Shorin-ryu with James Coffman with his Chinese systems coming form Daniel Pai. In 1973 George Dillman was named as one the country's top kata competitors by 'Official Karate Magazine'.

<sigh> you are so disagreeable...

Also I would like to feel this internal kung fu guy as just because you felt doesn't mean anything. Pressure points tend to work far more often and effectively on the students putting their faith in them. If this guy can't do this internal business on EVERYONE then it's hit and miss and just more dillmanesque marketing mumbo jumbo.

I would love for you to feel it. LOVE IT. ROFL but not for the reasons you might think LOL

nothing works on everyone, shouldn't you know that by now?? But you are blinded by this issue, clearly. I said my friend DIDN'T hit any pressure points. However it is much easier to disagree with something other than what I actually wrote so go for it.


However if you want more information on this (which I don't think you really do) you can ask my friend's teacher, who is a member here, Pete Starr, I think his user name is pstarr. Or any "internal" expert, I would think, I don't believe this is unique to these guys...

let me leave you with this: can you do everything you train on everyone? No? Then you are a dillmanesque mumbo-jumbo too!!! :2xbird:

 

[thetruth]

how does anyone know any kata can be traced back to anywhere?

:deadhorse



Can you prove that? Googling I can only find this, describing Dillman's pre-pressure-point training, which clearly IS a link to Okinawa.




<sigh> you are so disagreeable...



I would love for you to feel it. LOVE IT. ROFL but not for the reasons you might think LOL

nothing works on everyone, shouldn't you know that by now?? But you are blinded by this issue, clearly. I said my friend DIDN'T hit any pressure points. However it is much easier to disagree with something other than what I actually wrote so go for it.


However if you want more information on this (which I don't think you really do) you can ask my friend's teacher, who is a member here, Pete Starr, I think his user name is pstarr. Or any "internal" expert, I would think, I don't believe this is unique to these guys...

let me leave you with this: can you do everything you train on everyone? No? Then you are a dillmanesque mumbo-jumbo too!!! :2xbird:

I'm not disagreeable on most things but I can tell you regardless of who George trained with in America his pressure points theory is something he came up with on bits of information he gathered himself. He wasn't taught this information via any sort of student teacher relationship.

Also, my old instructor was a 5th dan under George and we learnt the versions of kata that George taught. When my friends Goju instructor (he trained for 5 or 6 years in Okinawa and goes back for gradings) saw these not only were many of the techniques unlike anything he had seen in his time over there but the parts that were the same had totally the wrong emphasis and timing. Lastly, competition kata performance is irrelevant to this argument as the only thing that is required at that level is that the kata LOOKS good and perhaps this is why the emphasis and what not is wrong.

Also, maybe the internal kung fu dude can do his stuff but just because you believe it does doesn't make it so. Like I said pressure points/energy stuff works a whole lot better on the students learning it. My old instructors top students fell and danced around like maniacs but when he did it on anyone who wasn't sucked in it was either hugely diminished or it didn't work.

As long as you believe that you can use what you are learning and have faith in your instructors keep on training. It really doesn't matter what a majority of the martial arts world thinks of Dillman and his affiliates, just that the people training believe in what they are learning. I've seen enough of that stuff to have formed my opinion (obviously).

There are enough posts on here about George and pressure points and they all take a similar vain to this one. Someone asks about pressure points, a kyusho guy pipes up about George or KI then a majority disagree with the kyusho guy. If kyusho people want to discuss kyusho without detractors then go to http://www.kyusho.com and join the forum. I'm sure Evan and Mark and the guys would love to help you. I've been kicked out of there 3 times just for asking questions and making a point. One time I didn't last a day. I have no issue with Evan or Mark, I have met them both and they are both nice guys, I just disagree with the way that people of Dillman lineage practice pressure points.

By the way, whats with the little smiley flipping the bird, it just makes you look like a tool.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[DavidCC]

Maybe I was a littel grumpy, sorry about the emoticon.

But you've made your point (and made it and made it) now can you let us have our discussion about the topic of the thread? You can easily start a thread about how wacko we are for having this thread...

 

[Makalakumu]

Maybe I was a littel grumpy, sorry about the emoticon.

But you've made your point (and made it and made it) now can you let us have our discussion about the topic of the thread? You can easily start a thread about how wacko we are for having this thread...

Hey guys, enough about Dillman. His training is relevent to this topic, but all that really needs to be said is that he had some formal training and he also figured out (or just made up) alot of stuff on his own. The topic of this thread could actually solve a lot of the questions that are being raised about the validity of this approach. Namely, how much does TCM influence kyusho bunkai in Okinawan Kata.

Dillman tends to really get into the esoteric aspects of TCM, but guess what, so does Erle Montaigue, who is a rather famous teacher of dim mak techniques. The difference between Erle and Dillman is that Erle teaches Tai Chi, so the connection to TCM is easier to see. However, it still could be asked whether or not that was originally part of the system though.

Oyata uses it, but not to the degree either of the two above use it, as far as I know.

And some karateka do not ever refer to TCM when they perform bunkai.

The end result of this is that we have a wide spectrum, but no real explanation as to why the spectrum is so wide. Did Oyata invent this way of doing kyusho or did he learn something that was secret for a long time? Are there credible sources that show a link between kara-te and TCM? How can we know if the TCM aspects of kyusho were really part of the original systems?

 

[DavidCC]

Perhaps the Bubishi represents apretty early transmision of that information from China

a chinese master was particularly important in this enterprise: Wu Xiangi or Wu Hsien Kuei, best knowed as GOKENKI, a chinese white crane master living in Naha. Gokenki was a close friend of Miyagi, Mabuni, Kyoda, Matayoshi, Hanashiro, Kana Kinjo, and others future masters, and gave instructions to them. Gokenki was a respectful nickname, a title given by the people that means "great ou very honorable master" (this nickname is equivalent to "Ryuryuko"...).
There is perhaps a significative relation between Gokenki and the Okinawan Bubishi. We know that Miyagi made several trips to China, some of them with Gokenki, that introduces him to some important Quan Fa masters and helped him to find books on chinese martial arts

...

The Okinawan Bubishi is an assembly of techniques, kata, strategies, vital points, popular medicine and ethic/moral code for martial artists. This compilation shapes the theory and practice of the Traditional Karate-do (originally "Tode-jutsu", an Okinawa term for Chinese Kempo).

...

The Okinawan Bubishi ... is a compilation and not a unique text. So, we can find divergences about, for example, classification of vital points. One classification is based on acupuncture theories without convincent evidences; other is based only on observation and experience, and a third relates effects that we only can accept if produced by spears and not by the hand attacks, no matter how the hand had been training

...

The medicine section of Okinawan Bubishi is confuse and supersticious, for example, the childish theory about "sichen", that is derived from astrological theories. Sketches on acupuncture meridians are presented without practical directions and vital points are presented together herbal medicine references (moxa?). Nowadays this section of Bubishi has perhaps an interest for folkloric and historical researches on popular chinese medicine, but IT IS VERY DANGEROUS AND AN IRRESPONSABLE ACT TO TRY USE IT

 

[loyalonehk]

If you could ask George Dillman (1) question, what would it be?

%-}

 

[thetruth]

If you could ask George Dillman (1) question, what would it be?

%-}

Why do you choose to hand high ranks out to those who've attended a certain amount of seminars rather than have people attend your school and grade the traditional way?

I know the answer but I'd like to hear his

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[thetruth]

Well Miyagi trained in china and bought kata that are unchanged to this day. There are definite links to China and TCM, it's just the way they taught such things in China thats up in the air. Did the Okinawans hide the pp application or was it withheld? Did the Chinese martial artists not deem it necessary to teach the intellectual side of tcm when teaching combatives? Did the Chinese martial artists that the Okinawans learnt off even know the tcm side in the first place? Some questions I don't have the answer to.

Also Erle Montague produces some of the most humorous videos on the market. He is not as highly regarded as people believe.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[loyalonehk]

Thanks for the reply Sam. I believe I may be able to guess your answere ($). I have heard that before about other systems. It usually occurs when a high ranked person conects with another (similar) style/system (I do not agree with this) If the individual does not have the deap roots (put in the time) then I believe the rank to be an honorary one at best and can weaken the core (correct me if I am on the wrong path here), however I believe and hope there is more depth to the answere and hope to bring back a confirmation to my belief of what the answere may be (more to come after the weekend). For the record I do not have rank in DKI.

I am attending Wally Jay's 90th B-day celebration this weekend in Oakland with some personal friends. One of the VIP guests and seminar teachers is George Dillman. This will be my first time ever meeting Mr. Dillman and after reading through this thread I was curious what some people may like to ask him. I have met Dr Ed Lake (one of Mr Dillmans top students) several years ago and I am friends with Mr Dillmans top guy here on the West coast, Master Mark Gerry. In addition I have also corresponded with Erle Montague via e-mail briefly from time to time. I am a true believer in in TCM and have also had the honor of enjoying Dr Vince Blacks company from time to time over the years.

I will not bad mouth anyone here on the public forum but will try to offer any positive influence about the any and all arts in general. They all have a Yin and Yang side to them. I am one to critisize in private and praise in public. Please, dont look at this post as if I am bragging or name dropping. I do not claim to be a subject expert but I have been fortunate in my journey to meet a few of the top names in MA's. I hope to bring to the table any relevant constructive insight from my experiences.

I too have developed my own opinions, but you know what they say about opinions. I value my ability to listen more than speak at this time. I have studied, felt and applied some of the PPT applications over the years and I do believe they have there place. To me its about becoming more precise, efficient and effective in your application of techniques weather it be healing or hurting. It also adds considerable depth to your abilities. In the end however, fighting is fighting. The more you know and understand about the human body and how it reacts/responds to certain strikes the more you put the odds of "Surviving the Day" in your favor. Correct and reality based application in your training is paramount for survival in combat, whether on or off the battlefield. It's all just another piece of the pie...

Repsectfully,
Dean

 

[Makalakumu]

Thanks for the reply Sam. I am attending Wally Jay's 90th B-day celebration this weekend in Oakland with some personal friends. One of the guests and seminar teachers is George Dillman. This will be my first time ever meeting Mr. Dillman and after reading through this thread I was curious what some people may like to ask him. I have met Dr Ed Lake (one of Mr Dillmans top students) several years ago and I am friends with Mr Dillmans top guy here on the West coast, Master Mark Gerry. In addition I have also corresponded with Erle Montague via e-mail from time to time. I am a true believer in in TCM and have also had the honor of enjoying Dr Vince Blacks company from time to time over the years. I will not bad mouth anyone here on the public forum but will try to offer any positive influence about the any and all arts in general. They all have a Yin and Yang side to them. I am one to critisize in private and praise in public. Please, dont look at this post as if I am bragging or name dropping. I do not claim to be a subject expert but I have been fortunate in my journey to meet a few of the top names in MA's. I hope to bring to the table any relevant constructive insight from my experiences.

I too have developed my own opinions, but you know what they say about opinions. I value my ability to listen more than speak at this time.

Repsectfully,
Dean

The purpose of this thread isn't to badmouth anyone, its to look at the traditional way of doing kyusho and figure out how TCM worked its way into it. We are trying to discuss how kyusho developed in traditional arts. Was it pre-existing and TCM was plastered on top of it or did kyusho spring directly from knowledge of TCM?

Dillman's method of kyusho is relevant to this thread. Discussing where it came from will help us understand the original questions. Dillman's people say that Kyusho sprung directly from knowledge of TCM. How do they know that? Are they a reliable source? Answering those questions demands that we start looking at how they learned what they learned and from the information shared in this thread and from the information that is common in other places on the net, its pretty apparent that they are not the best source for information on kyusho. They certainly have some peices of knowledge, but the system isn't a traditional kara-te system.

 

[loyalonehk]

The purpose of this thread isn't to badmouth anyone, its to look at the traditional way of doing kyusho and figure out how TCM worked its way into it. We are trying to discuss how kyusho developed in traditional arts. Was it pre-existing and TCM was plastered on top of it or did kyusho spring directly from knowledge of TCM?

Dillman's method of kyusho is relevant to this thread. Discussing where it came from will help us understand the original questions. Dillman's people say that Kyusho sprung directly from knowledge of TCM. How do they know that? Are they a reliable source? Answering those questions demands that we start looking at how they learned what they learned and from the information shared in this thread and from the information that is common in other places on the net, its pretty apparent that they are not the best source for information on kyusho. They certainly have some peices of knowledge, but the system isn't a traditional kara-te system.

Understood, thank you. I will see if I can return with some insight to add to the discussion after this weekend.

Didnt mean to get off topic...

 

[thetruth]

A couple of things.Firstly Dean, I believe at best if a blackbelt from 1 art goes to another instructor then the most they should do is give them a brownbelt and have them learn the entire system requirements for black belt and sit the black belt test(1st dan) just like everyone else. From there they can progress up the dan ranks the same as everyone. My old instructor went over and lived with George for a few months. He left here a 2nd dan and came home a 5th dan (this was before I started there). All of the seminar black belts George has(there are many) graded are considered real ranks with those given 7th dan by George titled 'Grandmasters'.

I started a separate thread on this but I'll also mention it here. The reason Dillman's name comes up so often here is that the term 'kyusho jitsu' is a name coined by George and used only by those with some direct or indirect affiliation/link to him. The word kyusho isn't used by Japanese or Okinawan arts to describe pressure points because it actually refers to vital points such as the eyes and throat not pressure points.

Back on track
I've not read it but does the Bubishi contain information of what exactly was passed on from the Chinese to the Okinawans? I'm not sure we'll ever know exactly what part the Chinese passed on and what part the Okinawans developed themselves.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[loyalonehk]

Thank you for the clarification Sam. Very interesting, good thread by the way.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[thetruth]

Loyalonehk, how was Wally Jay's birthday?????


Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[loyalonehk]

Loyalonehk, how was Wally Jay's birthday?????


Cheers
Sam:asian:

GREAT!!! Prof Wally Jay looks great and should easily see 100 yrs :ultracool

At the banquet dinner party there were around 500 people of which there was well over 100 GM's from all over. Goodtimes!

The Seminar went well also - training from 0800-1800. Then party time at Master Mark Gerry's home with a full house of great people.

Here's a pic that my friend sent me.

I'm the short one with the stash...

I did take the time to ask George Dillman about TCM and his system. He told me (not verbatem) that about 20yrs ago he went to train, once again with Hohan Soken, HS took him in and told him, something like, "Now I show you the real stuff - There are no blocks in Kata!" The delay in sharing this with his student, George Dillman, had a lot to do with WWII and the trust factors, etc. And per my conversation with GD thats how it all came about. You guys know the rest...

Anyway, busy day and I gotta get back to business... I'll check back later tonite.

Respectfully,
Dean

 

[DavidCC]

It would have to be a bit more than 20 years ago because Soken has been dead for 25.

but I know how when we get old time stretches out...

 

[loyalonehk]

It would have to be a bit more than 20 years ago because Soken has been dead for 25.

but I know how when we get old time stretches out...

Just the messenger here :lurk:

It was a casual conversation and I dont claim to be an expert... Thats what he told me.

Mr. Dillman also claims to have proven that Chi exists during a rescent study at a hospital (forgot which one he mentioned). But he says he was allowed to kill people and then bring em back during this study.:drinkbeer

Oh how I love to add fuel to the fire... Peace

Here's a pic of me as Master Gerry's Uke -

George Dillman, Mark Shuey, Wally Jay and Leon Jay (seated)

 

[DavidCC]

no problem It probably feels like "only" 20 years LOL time flies when you are having fun.


he is probably using very (very very) loose definitions of "kill" and "allow" hahaha

 

[thetruth]

Just the messenger here :lurk:

It was a casual conversation and I dont claim to be an expert... Thats what he told me.

Mr. Dillman also claims to have proven that Chi exists during a rescent study at a hospital (forgot which one he mentioned). But he says he was allowed to kill people and then bring em back during this study.:drinkbeer

Oh how I love to add fuel to the fire... Peace

If George said kill he above all else wants people to believe he can kill people with Chi. As if a hospital would allow such a thing and what sort of moron would allow themselves to be involved? The only person George is going to harm messing with Chi the way he does is himself. That video I posted earlier in this post says it all about the sort of chi George and the likes practice.

Cheers
Sam:asian: