Kyusho, Dim Mak, Meridians and Points

[Makalakumu]

There has been a lot of obfuscation in regards to striking vital points of the body. Many people who practice this, reference points by using the traditional chinese medicine points for accupuncture and accupressure. I am curious as to how historical this approach is. Is this a new, "invented", way of looking at kyusho, or is this how the old masters really practiced kyusho? What evidence is there that supports that they did use a methodology that was linked to TMC and how far back does this evidence go? Can it be traced back to the very creators of the karate kata themselves? Were these points specifically addressed by the creators of the kata so that the kata specifically showed them?

 

[Nobody]

Is this a new, "invented", way of looking at kyusho, or is this how the old masters really practiced kyusho? I think the best person you could ask is Taiki Oyata.


What evidence is there that supports that they did use a methodology that was linked to TMC and how far back does this evidence go? They use the same name an point location for each point an they use the same enegry flow.


Can it be traced back to the very creators of the karate Kata themselves?
I believe it can cause Oyata trained with some very famous martial artist that taught him. The fact he uses the Kanji an the letter names to study how an what something means is a strong point in knowing if it came from what source. The fact that the same approach is used even in Goju Ryu an Pangainoon an Uichi Ryu might give one open pause.


Were these points specifically addressed by the creators of the Kata so that the Kata specifically showed them?
No, cause it is still a gross physical movement. That is in a certain area of the body as a whole that cause slightly more damage.

Taika Oyata lives an teaches in Independence Kansas City area.
http://www.kushu.com/mo.html

 

[Makalakumu]

I think the best person you could ask is Taiki Oyata.

Oyata Sensei has proven to be a legitimate authority on the subject, but there are a lot of other "masters" out there who claim to know this stuff. Further, they all have in common this link with TCM. Without going and actually training with a person, how can you tell if one methodology is fradulent and another is not?

They use the same name an point location for each point an they use the same enegry flow.

Why is this? Where is the actual historical link between kyusho and TCM?

I believe it can cause Oyata trained with some very famous martial artist that taught him. The fact he uses the Kanji an the letter names to study how an what something means is a strong point in knowing if it came from what source. The fact that the same approach is used even in Goju Ryu and Pangainoon an Uichi Ryu might give one open pause.

This is very interesting. Have you trained in either Ryu Te, Goju, or Uechi? How would you compare their methodology and usage of TCM in this respect?

Were these points specifically addressed by the creators of the Kata so that the Kata specifically showed them?

No, cause it is still a gross physical movement. That is in a certain area of the body as a whole that cause slightly more damage.

I'm a tad surprised by this. When I practice certain kata, I get the feeling that certain points were obviously targeted by the creator. I'm wondering if there is any evidence that this could have been done on purpose.

If you are correct and the points were not specifically targeted, then where did kyusho come from? Was it added later?

 

[Nobody]

This is very interesting. Have you trained in either Ryu Te, Goju, or Uechi? How would you compare their methodology and usage of TCM in this respect?

I studied for about 5 years Goju Ryu, several people i meet through tournament/work what not, we would talk they would tell me about Oyata's approach an that it contained certain structure training based on what i said before. This is a common method that many out there have used to develop a diagnose mind set for easy use an development in most of the health thing an as i said several karate. It does help to understand what is being talked about with the point when you use that method.

Pangai-noon karate is what the other three style have been said to come from Goju, Uechi, Ryu Kyu Kempo. That is also just a word of mouth thing.

Why is this? Where is the actual historical link between kyusho and TCM?

On the whole i think this is left to the pasted an not likely to be understood or brought to light unless like i said you talk to Oyata an the few that have brought this to America. Define there teacher maybe they all had the same teacher at some point.

Check each link related to Oyata find out who his teacher would have been there are several description of his life on the net so i am sure they have put that out there.

A lot of what i have put in the other post is based on just my have studied with certain people an we exchanging ideas an thought. Also, know that there are a lot of people that would brake from Oyata'a organization at certain point do to some very specific thing Oyata would do when changing name of the style. This would cause certain student to leave an not return and i mean his highest ranking students at that time.

If you are correct and the points were not specifically targeted, then where did kyusho come from? Was it added later?

By gross movement they are not all that specific an they would have had more of a acupressure effect to the point that acupuncture point the acupuncture point not quiet as painful as the acupressure points an would require greater force to get to so it is a gross movement. The reason i think that you will have time defining this as historical is more do to that in no way did Oyata ever say he trained in TCM or anything. If there is an enrollment into a school for any of the known teachers of Oyata or himself than you would be able to find out, but i doubt it. looking for historical knowledge from martial artist is not the most acurate place to go. This will put on something in the past which in China an in Japan public record is anything relating to travel an enrollment an area of origin of the persons family an business are easy to find. Also unlike in america they have to first fill out a travel thing in the country of Japan an Okinawa an China before they can up an go to another state or area this lasted until right around 1920 in some cases.

 

[thetruth]

As far as using tcm points for knockouts etc, all martial arts use them. HOWEVER any traditional art doesn't describe the points and their effect on each other when teaching self defence. They practice their kata and within this is all of the points etc and self defence. All of the intellectualisation of this came from Dillman in order to market himself and knock outs etc. This can still be seen in all of the off shoots from him such as Kyusho International. This is a very hit and miss way of practicing kyusho and has no links to the original arts.
Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

As far as using tcm points for knockouts etc, all martial arts use them. HOWEVER any traditional art doesn't describe the points and their effect on each other when teaching self defence. They practice their kata and within this is all of the points etc and self defence. All of the intellectualisation of this came from Dillman in order to market himself and knock outs etc. This can still be seen in all of the off shoots from him such as Kyusho International. This is a very hit and miss way of practicing kyusho and has no links to the original arts.
Cheers
Sam:asian:

I guess this is another question of mine, something that all of the questions probe at. Dillman teaches this intellectualist esoteric beast of a system when it comes to kyusho and nobody who has done it in a traditional art has any respect for it. There is an esoteric side of this that extends into the traditional arts, however. I'm wondering about this and whether there are any parrellels.

 

[thetruth]

I guess this is another question of mine, something that all of the questions probe at. Dillman teaches this intellectualist esoteric beast of a system when it comes to kyusho and nobody who has done it in a traditional art has any respect for it. There is an esoteric side of this that extends into the traditional arts, however. I'm wondering about this and whether there are any parrellels.

I'm sure there are parallels as there are only so many ways to interpret a kata BUT having said that the ways such things are meant to be done as per the kata and there is far more to the technique than just hitting the points in a certain order such as stance, the position of your assailant etc. The dillman guys tend to just have pulled random techniques out of the katas that they see and using the cycle of destruction etc look for series of strikes to achieve a KO. Each to their own but traditional the are not and practising pressure points and other energy type stuff incorrectly can be harmful to the kyusho (or who is appying the technique) practitioner.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Nobody]

Oyata is Dillmans teacher you do know that right!

 

[Nobody]

Oyata is Dillmans teacher you do know that right!

That is a fact. 100 percent sure on that know for a fact that he studied an use to meet with Oyata in the 1980's.:jediduel:

 

[thetruth]

That is a fact. 100 percent sure on that know for a fact that he studied an use to meet with Oyata in the 1980's.:jediduel:

Absolute crap!!!!!! It is well known that Dillman showed up to about 6 Oyata seminars with a video camera. Watched the videos at home and started smacking people in his lounge room (his wife was the first to KO someone) slowly developing what became know as the DILLMAN method of pressure point fighting. Dillman started using the name Ryukyu Kempo that Oyata had named the art he was teaching in America. Oyata wanted nothing to do with Dillman so he changed his arts name to Ryu Te which he then trademarked so George (or anyone) couldn't use that. I don't know if he is still on here but Robert Rousellot (spelling?) who has regularly posted in martial talk in the past will be able to tell you in far more detail.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Nobody]

Greg told me that Dillman Studied directly from Oyata an when Oyata heard that Dillman was trying to develop his books an thing that Oyata than to that personal an choose to say he had never had any contact with the Dillman. If you look at the way Oyata an Dillman teach the bunkia you will see it is the same thing.

 

[thetruth]

You will find if you choose to research this further that Dillman did not at any point study under Oyata. You will also find that the way Dillman and anyone of his lineage teach pressure points is entirely different to the way any one of Japanese/Okinawan lineage teach that kind of fighting.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Okay. This is where I just need someone to come clean and explain how the two are different. I started another thread on this, but really didn't get too much response.

Dillman has this method of striking points. Many of his students claim that it is just like Oyata. Many of Oyata's students claim that there are differences. People who I know personally, who have gone to seminars by both have said that they are very similar.

I suppose the devil is in the details.

Here's the one thing that I'm guessing at...Dillman's method takes the Oyata method and adds a layer of complexity on it that is not needed. He adds a bunch of esoteric stuff that really adds nothing to the effectiveness of the original method itself.

Thoughts?

 

[DavidCC]

Dillman's method takes the Oyata method and adds a layer of complexity on it that is not needed. He adds a bunch of esoteric stuff that really adds nothing to the effectiveness of the original method itself.

Thoughts?

I have some experience with KI, which came out of Dillman's group. I also have some video of Oyata teaching and demonstrating. And I would have to say that not only does it add nothing to the effectiveness, I have to wonder if it didn't in fact diminish it.

I have a friend who is not in Oyats's school but does know him, and form what I have heard form him, GD was never a student of Oyata. "thetruth" is telling it the way I heard it, too.

 

[Nobody]

Look the best way is to talk to Oyata he is not a hard person to talk to an i have talked to him be for he says don't lump him in with Dillman an certain schools that used to be under his main branch are now saying any mention of Dillman is just not a good thing.

Back on point Qyata point attack thing is not just striking certain point it is about both how to develop the understanding of reading a person's physical approach. I still think that one of Oyata's teacher was probably into Chinese Medicine. Cause Oyata will literally list point an thoughts about the point when he explains.

p.s. Greg i know is way up in the organization an maybe i misunderstood what he was saying about Dillman cause they make the point Dillman new Oyata on both a personal level like invited to his house an fact he had only copies of videos that he had made at those time an in certain seminars. I could have misheard what Greg said.. An Greg is probably one of Oyata's senior students. An even the business that a person named (what was it, Ted) runs RYUKYU martial arts supplies something they are a martial arts store an he also anymore says we don't have anything to do with Dillman an he is not a good thing to mention around Oyata. Excuse me for causing the thread to disrell an go way astray of what is important. (i hope this does not cause grief for those i have mentioned. Again very nice people to talk to.)

Oyata is a nice person he would gladly explain what is going on with why he uses points to identify the pressure points that are used in his system are identifiable in TCM being the same name an directional number on the energy thing. Oyata is actually very forthright in most response's about his style an is easy to talk to as it goes.

 

[thetruth]

As mentioned by upnorthkyosa Dillman's method adds too much complexity to the application of pressure points that is absolutely unnecessary. There is a local Okinawan Goju Ryu instructor near where I live who learnt off one of Miyagi's top students and trained with Miyagi himself. He knows no TCM at all and cannot name any meridians or specific points but I tell you this; when he applies his kata to self defense they are well and truly there and are far more effective than anything I have felt personally of any highly ranked students of George. This is because there is no mumbo jumbo about this or that point. Do your self defense as your kata says and BAM it will work. George developed his way of teaching as a marketing tool to sell his videos (he became a millionaire off those crap videos) and attract people to seminars in the 80's. It is not necessary to know the names of points to apply them in self defense if there is proper lineage to your karate and the kata are unchanged. If the techniques out of the kata are done as they are supposed to be done not only will the correct points be struck but your stance and the stance/position of your attacker will be correct inorder to produce the best result. I guarantee if you just have to worry about practicing your kata rather than this point, that point, this angle, that direction, this type of strike/rub/vibration etc etc etc your self defense will be far superior and you will develop quicker. You may not sound as intelligent as a Dillman guy but at least your self defense won't be hit and miss and you won't have to make up excuses as Dillman does for his ***** not working.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[thetruth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-x4iJM2aU4&mode=related&search=

Heres a video of George. Watch it until the end. He can't KO anyone but his own students. He has many excuses about why it doesn't work.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

As mentioned by upnorthkyosa Dillman's method adds too much complexity to the application of pressure points that is absolutely unnecessary. There is a local Okinawan Goju Ryu instructor near where I live who learnt off one of Miyagi's top students and trained with Miyagi himself. He knows no TCM at all and cannot name any meridians or specific points but I tell you this; when he applies his kata to self defense they are well and truly there and are far more effective than anything I have felt personally of any highly ranked students of George. This is because there is no mumbo jumbo about this or that point. Do your self defense as your kata says and BAM it will work. George developed his way of teaching as a marketing tool to sell his videos (he became a millionaire off those crap videos) and attract people to seminars in the 80's. It is not necessary to know the names of points to apply them in self defense if there is proper lineage to your karate and the kata are unchanged. If the techniques out of the kata are done as they are supposed to be done not only will the correct points be struck but your stance and the stance/position of your attacker will be correct inorder to produce the best result. I guarantee if you just have to worry about practicing your kata rather than this point, that point, this angle, that direction, this type of strike/rub/vibration etc etc etc your self defense will be far superior and you will develop quicker. You may not sound as intelligent as a Dillman guy but at least your self defense won't be hit and miss and you won't have to make up excuses as Dillman does for his ***** not working.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

This has always been my approach, although I do use the TCM names of points to referrence the body in class. Dillman has been done to death, especially in this particular forum of MT, and he has done himself to death with videos like the one you posted.

I'm curious as to your comment about the guy who practiced goju. So, you are saying that the points will be there if you practice your kata whether you like them to or not. This implies that they were designed this way does it not?

I suppose some of the kata creators, when they traveled to China, could have learned some TCM along the way...

 

[DavidCC]

So, you are saying that the points will be there if you practice your kata whether you like them to or not. This implies that they were designed this way does it not?

I suppose some of the kata creators, when they traveled to China, could have learned some TCM along the way...

As far as I can tell, this is the theory that most of the work being done by Pantazzi and Corn within KI is based on. Analysis of traditional kata.


On the other hand, I have worked with an internal kung-fu guy (yi li quan) and from his perspective, he can project his strike internally where he wants it, to him every spot on your body is a pressure point, and he demonstrated this ability on my own body, it's a whole other level...

-D

 

[thetruth]

This has always been my approach, although I do use the TCM names of points to referrence the body in class. Dillman has been done to death, especially in this particular forum of MT, and he has done himself to death with videos like the one you posted.

I'm curious as to your comment about the guy who practiced goju. So, you are saying that the points will be there if you practice your kata whether you like them to or not. This implies that they were designed this way does it not?

I suppose some of the kata creators, when they traveled to China, could have learned some TCM along the way...

I don't know what the originators of Goju or whatever learnt. They may have just developed their kata etc of forms from a chinese art with no specific knowledge of tcm or they could have learnt the points and developed the kata but removed all of the tcm names and mumbo jumbo as they realised that this just detracts from ones ability to learn the kata and self defense out of them(and is totally unnecessary for self defense).

Cheers
Sam:asian: