Kyukoshin sparring

[Kenlee25]

I've recently been watching quite a bit of kyukoshin sparring vids on youtube. I really admire the beating these guys can take, not everyone can just pound on each other's chest, abs, and legs like that. Insane stuff. But what thing always stands out to me, They don't really block or avoid strikes much. Whereas most fighters seem to have a more defensive position in mind ( "my goal is to NOT get hit" ) kyukoshin fighters in kumite go all out in extreme close range with kicks and punches wailing at eachother, even employing the wheel kick ( sacrifice kick ) to score on the opponent. Kumite often results in a knockout moreso than any other martial art sparring I know. I also noticed it is very straight line. Kyukoshin fighters ( like I said, these guys are TOUGH ) hold their ground and have very solid durable stances. It's unlike any other sparring I've seen before.

my question is, what kind of artist does this breed? do you have a martial artist immune to all pain that doesn't care about being hit on the street? Who just takes it and wails on the other guy until his bones break? Who comes out the fight battered, bruised, maybe even bloodied, but inevitably the victor? Or is it mostly for sport?


NOTE: I have had absolutely no kyukoshin or for that matter karate training in my life and my friends are all TKD, Judo, Wing chun, and MMA practioners, which is why it looks so wierd to me.

 

[Zenjael]

A kind I don't particularly admire. A lot of martial artists take pride in their ability to take punishment, and while it's important to be durable, and condition, a lot do overkill. And what you end up with is televised, sensationalized nonsense which would get you killed the moment someone pulls a gun. Which I think was one of the points of Kung Fu Panda 2.

I don't follow a defensive path, though others might argue it. Every block I make is a strike, and most strikes will double as a block. I use my arms to guide their arms to a location other than what they intended, while I myself move from where I had been, and they are still aiming. I have been playing with telegraphing a lot lately, and I've got something I consider a neat trick where I will predict where they will be, and place the point of my elbow, as if it were an extended strike out, and just let them impale themselves on it. Those who are not committed to their action tend to see it and back off. You'd be amazed how many forget to take it at each strike at a time, and commit to a combination of moves, which a person can jam on the first and completely throw them off.

The way I see it is deal with each strike as it comes; do not provoke, react; have such quickness not only can you react to them, your strike lands first, do not worry about the next strike from them, worry about each strike as it comes, in the moment; I do not think of anything else, I quiet my mind, and check my emotions at the ring's edge. I do my best not to think; it allows me to react with more speed than if I were say contemplating how to write this post while defending myself.

The style I practice, or at least tactic, is directly opposite to how the kyukoshin practitioners fight. I have no need to block if I am not there, and quite simply I just will not get hit. I do not worry about blocking, or evading 9 out of the 10 strikes thrown at me; I worry about the one coming at my face, right there, right then, and I move in a fashion away from it. It's elementary; just don't be there, you won't get hurt. With a large enough number, statistically you will get hit, something will get through. And I've noticed that the less I worry about what's coming after, opportunities I missed, or focus on anything other than just right there and what is going on between me and him, the more I can actually react faster, move faster, and not get hit.

For each person I practice with a goal of letting 3 shots get in, but not hit me, and allow one to actually strike me, if they are particularly frustrated (hitting air makes people very frustrated). Usually I only get hit twice out of an exchange, against underbelts it can at times even be not at all. Against people of dan ranking I can expect around 5 strikes to land. But basing one's ability to defend off of ranking is silly; I am happy as long the strike does not hit me, and though I know it an impossible goal, I strive to never get hit. It just seems reasonable to me.

Even keeping evasion in mind, one still must be prepared for when something does inevitably land. What surprises me is how few martial artists know how to continuously fight when injured. During the Chung Do Kwan black belt exams, part of the initiation was if you broke your ribs during the exam, you finished the exam as you were, then. I did. Had I reported my injury an ambulance would have been called, and I would have failed because I did not complete the exam, and more importantly, not only did I let myself get hit... I let what I let get through interfere with something very important; my entire goal at the time as a martial artist. In short, if this were in terms of survival, it would not be likely. Being a black belt at that school was about the fighting spirit, with such emphasis that they treated knowledge of techniques, and execution, for a dan, as a given.

I've seen many jaws drop from the fact a green belt at Khan's Academy could whoop another TKD artist otherwhere. Part of me wonders if when putting this particular style of Chung Do Kwan together from his teacher, if Master Khan deliberately altered the style in a way which while keeping it chung do kwan, altered it so it would annihalate kickers. Ionno, theories and tangents.

It's all good to be able to take a hit, but if objects start getting involved, which they do on the street, it's a different story. You couldn't pay me to stand in the way of a baseball bat.

 

[K-man]

I've recently been watching quite a bit of kyukoshin sparring vids on youtube. I really admire the beating these guys can take, not everyone can just pound on each other's chest, abs, and legs like that. Insane stuff. But what thing always stands out to me, They don't really block or avoid strikes much. Whereas most fighters seem to have a more defensive position in mind ( "my goal is to NOT get hit" ) kyukoshin fighters in kumite go all out in extreme close range with kicks and punches wailing at eachother, even employing the wheel kick ( sacrifice kick ) to score on the opponent. Kumite often results in a knockout moreso than any other martial art sparring I know. I also noticed it is very straight line. Kyukoshin fighters ( like I said, these guys are TOUGH ) hold their ground and have very solid durable stances. It's unlike any other sparring I've seen before.

my question is, what kind of artist does this breed? do you have a martial artist immune to all pain that doesn't care about being hit on the street? Who just takes it and wails on the other guy until his bones break? Who comes out the fight battered, bruised, maybe even bloodied, but inevitably the victor? Or is it mostly for sport?


NOTE: I have had absolutely no kyukoshin or for that matter karate training in my life and my friends are all TKD, Judo, Wing chun, and MMA practioners, which is why it looks so wierd to me.

Kyokushin was founded by a Korean guy call Mas Oyama. I think he started out with Shotokan but swapped over to train Goju Kai with Gogen Yamaguchi. He thought Shotokan didn't have enough reality and "Gogen" means 'rough' in Japanese. (It was a nickname given to Yamaguchi by Chojun Miyagi and he liked it so much, he changed his name.)

Eventually Oyama went off by himself to establish Kyokushin. In their fighting they do not strike to the head so in that way it has similar rules to TKD in that you can't hit the head with punch or open palm. The big difference is you can catch the kicks. Because they are punching to the body the range is a lot closer so you don't see the dancing about that you tend to find in a lot of TKD.

The type of sparring you see it typical of most of the forms of karate. Once again in karate tournaments, other than Kyokushin, we can punch to the head but must not actually touch. This is why some of us are against 'sport' karate where you pull your punch. Contact to the body is full on so it's quite easy to end up with busted ribs if you don't keep your elbows down. Same thing with kicks. You can kick to the torso and you can foot sweep. You can't make contact with the head and you can't kick the knee.

The sparring we do is closer to Kyokushin, without head kicks. Two reasons, one high kicks are easy to catch and two, we're all too old to lift our legs that high. However, we put on full face head gear and go flat out. Normally you're quite exhausted in less than 3 minutes. This is why so many people were critical of Alex's video. They went for 9 minutes without raising a sweat, didn't land one punch or kick and tried to make out it was a great example of what they can do. As I said before, if anyone gave me that sort of crap in a grading they would fail on the spot. I would expect my junior green belts to put in more effort than that.

In terms of what sort of martial artist it breeds. the guys I know and train with are tough men. Many of then work security or personal protection and they all know how to take a hit. Because they don't train to pull punches, in competition they don't punch to the head, they don't hesitate to hit to the head in a real situation. Yes, they break bones, theirs and the people they hit, but they don't stop. And as for Kyokushin pcactitioners, I have nothing but respect. When you pull on a blackbelt with those guys you have nowhere to hide. Apart from that, the ones I know are all nice guys.

 

[K-man]

A kind I don't particularly admire. A lot of martial artists take pride in their ability to take punishment, and while it's important to be durable, and condition, a lot do overkill. And what you end up with is televised, sensationalized nonsense which would get you killed the moment someone pulls a gun. Which I think was one of the points of Kung Fu Panda 2.

Alex, they learn to take punishment because in the real world you can't stop everything. You get hit and you get hit hard. It is absolute drivel to say it will get you killed the moment someone pulls a gun. The only martial art I know that will unfailingly protect you against bullets is "Shishi" Baghua. But that's a bit like the last Samuri. You're the only one left!

I don't follow a defensive path, though others might argue it. Every block I make is a strike, and most strikes will double as a block. I use my arms to guide their arms to a location other than what they intended, while I myself move from where I had been, and they are still aiming. I have been playing with telegraphing a lot lately, and I've got something I consider a neat trick where I will predict where they will be, and place the point of my elbow, as if it were an extended strike out, and just let them impale themselves on it. Those who are not committed to their action tend to see it and back off. You'd be amazed how many forget to take it at each strike at a time, and commit to a combination of moves, which a person can jam on the first and completely throw them off.

Once again you are demonstrating that you have never been in a real fight. What you say you will do is totally different to what you will do under adrenal dump. In one of your previous posts you said that in a mugging situation you would revert to Krav Maga for self defence, hence my question as to how long you had trained KM. If you are using KM you won't be doing any of the crap you say you can do.

The way I see it is deal with each strike as it comes; do not provoke, react; have such quickness not only can you react to them, your strike lands first, do not worry about the next strike from them, worry about each strike as it comes, in the moment; I do not think of anything else, I quiet my mind, and check my emotions at the ring's edge. I do my best not to think; it allows me to react with more speed than if I were say contemplating how to write this post while defending myself.

You told us you can throw 10 punches per second. Let's assume you're twice as good as me and I throw just four good ones. Each punch 0.25 seconds, your reaction time 0.2 seconds (reaction time of a top athlete), you have 0.05 seconds to deal with each strike as it comes and respond. I don't think so Alex.

The style I practice, or at least tactic, is directly opposite to how the kyukoshin practitioners fight. I have no need to block if I am not there, and quite simply I just will not get hit. I do not worry about blocking, or evading 9 out of the 10 strikes thrown at me; I worry about the one coming at my face, right there, right then, and I move in a fashion away from it. It's elementary; just don't be there, you won't get hurt. With a large enough number, statistically you will get hit, something will get through. And I've noticed that the less I worry about what's coming after, opportunities I missed, or focus on anything other than just right there and what is going on between me and him, the more I can actually react faster, move faster, and not get hit.

As above. It's elementary all right. You will get hit.

For each person I practice with a goal of letting 3 shots get in, but not hit me, and allow one to actually strike me, if they are particularly frustrated (hitting air makes people very frustrated). Usually I only get hit twice out of an exchange, against underbelts it can at times even be not at all. Against people of dan ranking I can expect around 5 strikes to land. But basing one's ability to defend off of ranking is silly; I am happy as long the strike does not hit me, and though I know it an impossible goal, I strive to never get hit. It just seems reasonable to me.

It sounds like something the Bullshido boys would be dancing around and having a party with.

Even keeping evasion in mind, one still must be prepared for when something does inevitably land. What surprises me is how few martial artists know how to continuously fight when injured. During the Chung Do Kwan black belt exams, part of the initiation was if you broke your ribs during the exam, you finished the exam as you were, then. I did. Had I reported my injury an ambulance would have been called, and I would have failed because I did not complete the exam, and more importantly, not only did I let myself get hit... I let what I let get through interfere with something very important; my entire goal at the time as a martial artist. In short, if this were in terms of survival, it would not be likely. Being a black belt at that school was about the fighting spirit, with such emphasis that they treated knowledge of techniques, and execution, for a dan, as a given.

Seems like you remembered your broken ribs after I mentioned mine. I got mine sparring a blackbelt when I was a green belt back in about 1983. And yes I kept sparring and I was back in class two days later and still sparring. We didn't even consider calling an ambulance for anything.

I've seen many jaws drop from the fact a green belt at Khan's Academy could whoop another TKD artist otherwhere. Part of me wonders if when putting this particular style of Chung Do Kwan together from his teacher, if Master Khan deliberately altered the style in a way which while keeping it chung do kwan, altered it so it would annihalate kickers. Ionno, theories and tangents.

I'm not surprised to hear about people's jaws dropping. Mine drops almost every time I read your posts.

It's all good to be able to take a hit, but if objects start getting involved, which they do on the street, it's a different story. You couldn't pay me to stand in the way of a baseball bat.

Bill, I think it's another train wreck! Seems to be one on every line at present.

More popcorn anyone. :s67:

 

[elder999]

A kind I don't particularly admire.It's all good to be able to take a hit, but if objects start getting involved, which they do on the street, it's a different story.

Shrugged off your Dragon-Z fireball and kicked you in the leg, did they? :lfao:

You couldn't pay me to stand in the way of a baseball bat.

You.....are......so......precious! :lfao:

my question is, what kind of artist does this breed?

Pretty serious ones, actually. You know, the kind who've been at the dojo until about now, instead of wanking away on the computer.....:lol:

do you have a martial artist immune to all pain that doesn't care about being hit on the street? Who just takes it and wails on the other guy until his bones break? Who comes out the fight battered, bruised, maybe even bloodied, but inevitably the victor? Or is it mostly for sport?

Jeff Cuffee-3rd dan, kyokushin, here.

The bouts you see are sport..Tae kwon do guys are pretty welcome at those tournaments, btw, and tend to do pretty well, from time to time.

Kyokushin has plenty of blocks and evasive maneuvers-like a lot of Japanese styles, though, those are looked upon as lacking courage in practice-we'll practice them in ippon, sanbon and gohon kumite-one, three and five-step sparring-and occasionally in free-sparring or self defense, but it's bad-form for contests, just like sacrifice kicks are bad form for self defense. On the other hand, most regular dojo sparring is nothing like those bouts you see on youtube.

In Japan, at the honbu, if one was too evasive or playful in sparring,though, they'd catch a proper beating, 30 years ago.If your stance was too wide, you'd catch a kick in the balls. If you didn't keep your elbows in, you'd get your ribs broken.

It's not for everyone-it makes capable practitioners, and strong fighters-it also isn't something to get old with: a lot of my contemporaries have had one or both hips replaced, and/or knees, or suffer from arthritis, and, while kyokushin has sets of circular blocking techniques, most of us could have stood to learn more when it comes to soft technique and evasiveness, and use a little tai-chi or yoga to keep from getting hurt down the road. Most of all, hard, knockdown tournaments are most definitely for those of us 35-tops!-and under.

On the other hand, some of us have become pretty hard old dudes-at least, that's what people tell us......:lol:

Here's Matsui Shokei in training and bouts, and parts of his 100 man kumite.

Look close, and you'll see some poor kuro-gaijin getting knocked-the-**** out. :lfao:

 

[K-man]

Shrugged off your Dragon-Z fireball and kicked you in the leg, did they? :lfao:



You.....are......so......precious! :lfao:

Pretty serious ones, actually. You know, the kind who've been at the dojo until about now, instead of wanking away on the computer.....:lol:



Jeff Cuffee-3rd dan, kyokushin, here.

The bouts you see are sport..Tae kwon do guys are pretty welcome at those tournaments, btw, and tend to do pretty well, from time to time.

Kyokushin has plenty of blocks and evasive maneuvers-like a lot of Japanese styles, though, those are looked upon as lacking courage in practice-we'll practice them in ippon, sanbon and gohon kumite-one, three and five-step sparring-and occasionally in free-sparring or self defense, but it's bad-form for contests, just like sacrifice kicks are bad form for self defense. On the other hand, most regular dojo sparring is nothing like those bouts you see on youtube.

In Japan, at the honbu, if one was too evasive or playful in sparring,though, they'd catch a proper beating, 30 years ago.If your stance was too wide, you'd catch a kick in the balls. If you didn't keep your elbows in, you'd get your ribs broken.

It's not for everyone-it makes capable practitioners, and strong fighters-it also isn't something to get old with: a lot of my contemporaries have had one or both hips replaced, and/or knees, or suffer from arthritis, and, while kyokushin has sets of circular blocking techniques, most of us could have stood to learn more when it comes to soft technique and evasiveness, and use a little tai-chi or yoga to keep from getting hurt down the road. Most of all, hard, knockdown tournaments are most definitely for those of us 35-tops!-and under.

On the other hand, some of us have become pretty hard old dudes-at least, that's what people tell us......:lol:

Here's Matsui Shokei in training and bouts, and parts of his 100 man kumite.

Look close, and you'll see some poor kuro-gaijin getting knocked-the-**** out. :lfao:

I think you put in pictures exactly what I was trying to say!

 

[Benevolentbob]

I have nothing but respect for Kyokushin practitioners and consider Mas Oyama one of the best martial artists of the modern era. He was very similar to one of my other martial arts idols in that he was able to look beyond his base system and evolve in ways that he felt were necessary. My understanding is that he learned quite a bit from Thai boxers and that he was beginning to implement Judo before he died, however I could be mistaken so someone more knowledgeable on him may have to correct me on that. If there were a Kyokushin school around here I'd be there. I firmly believe that it's one of the most effective and realistic "traditional" arts. I know it's not technically traditional because it was created fairly recently but I look at it as traditional because of its ideas and where its roots come from.

 

[Cyriacus]

Kyokushin Karateka train with Intensity.
Fighting is Intense.

I Respect it.

 

[SuperFLY]

without experience with the art, id say half the reason they dont bother blocking the punches if they're more concerned about avoiding that inevitable kick that's about to, without warning, come flying at their head!

the conditioning these boys have is superb and as others have said, i have huge respect for what they do.

the thing the strikes me moreso than ANY other MA competition i've ever seen is their dedication to perfect technique. as the OP says, most matches end in knockout. i hate the general point scoring way of fighting in that technique often goes out of the window in order to 'windwill' your arms at someone and get a touch to score. i know im generalising and its not always this case but the point is i often see technique disappear in order to score a point. whereas in Kyukoskin they'll be punishing the mid section, and executing kicks with superb technique. the intense matches i've seen there punches and kicks are raining in, blocks and counters coming just as fast with perfect technique then suddenly one gets through and bam.. down one goes.

im in awe of it, i really am.

 

[MJS]

I've recently been watching quite a bit of kyukoshin sparring vids on youtube. I really admire the beating these guys can take, not everyone can just pound on each other's chest, abs, and legs like that. Insane stuff. But what thing always stands out to me, They don't really block or avoid strikes much. Whereas most fighters seem to have a more defensive position in mind ( "my goal is to NOT get hit" ) kyukoshin fighters in kumite go all out in extreme close range with kicks and punches wailing at eachother, even employing the wheel kick ( sacrifice kick ) to score on the opponent. Kumite often results in a knockout moreso than any other martial art sparring I know. I also noticed it is very straight line. Kyukoshin fighters ( like I said, these guys are TOUGH ) hold their ground and have very solid durable stances. It's unlike any other sparring I've seen before.

my question is, what kind of artist does this breed? do you have a martial artist immune to all pain that doesn't care about being hit on the street? Who just takes it and wails on the other guy until his bones break? Who comes out the fight battered, bruised, maybe even bloodied, but inevitably the victor? Or is it mostly for sport?


NOTE: I have had absolutely no kyukoshin or for that matter karate training in my life and my friends are all TKD, Judo, Wing chun, and MMA practioners, which is why it looks so wierd to me.

I have been training Kyokushin since this past August. I love it! To be honest, the dojo has been in my area for a long time. Sadly I didn't join up sooner. However, to answer your questions....yes, the sparring you see in Kyokushin is, IMHO, not for everyone. I fought last night. I took some hard shots, and I gave some hard shots. I took, and this was my fault due to the way I was standing, 4 shots to the leg, in the same damn spot! LOL! Sure, I'm a bit sore today, but its all good. I train with a fantastic group of people. We pound the hell out of each other, but at the end of the class, we're all friends.

My teacher lived and trained with Mas Oyama for 3yrs. He's a great man, and pushes all of us each and every class. We all leave there tired and soaked with sweat, but its a great feeling.

As for taking the shots vs. blocking. Don't let what you see fool you. We do work alot of defensive aspects too. Just this past Saturday, we worked some blocking against kicks, and then counter punching. So yes, its definately in there. One of my fights last night was against a Black Belt. Although I did get some punches and kicks in, he did block quite a few.

One thing about Kyokushin, is that its definately a hard contact style. Yes, you will be conditioned and eventually alot of the shots you take, won't have much effect..lol. No, despite what some seem to think, your bones aren't going to break.

 

[MJS]

A kind I don't particularly admire. A lot of martial artists take pride in their ability to take punishment, and while it's important to be durable, and condition, a lot do overkill. And what you end up with is televised, sensationalized nonsense which would get you killed the moment someone pulls a gun. Which I think was one of the points of Kung Fu Panda 2.

I don't follow a defensive path, though others might argue it. Every block I make is a strike, and most strikes will double as a block. I use my arms to guide their arms to a location other than what they intended, while I myself move from where I had been, and they are still aiming. I have been playing with telegraphing a lot lately, and I've got something I consider a neat trick where I will predict where they will be, and place the point of my elbow, as if it were an extended strike out, and just let them impale themselves on it. Those who are not committed to their action tend to see it and back off. You'd be amazed how many forget to take it at each strike at a time, and commit to a combination of moves, which a person can jam on the first and completely throw them off.

The way I see it is deal with each strike as it comes; do not provoke, react; have such quickness not only can you react to them, your strike lands first, do not worry about the next strike from them, worry about each strike as it comes, in the moment; I do not think of anything else, I quiet my mind, and check my emotions at the ring's edge. I do my best not to think; it allows me to react with more speed than if I were say contemplating how to write this post while defending myself.

The style I practice, or at least tactic, is directly opposite to how the kyukoshin practitioners fight. I have no need to block if I am not there, and quite simply I just will not get hit. I do not worry about blocking, or evading 9 out of the 10 strikes thrown at me; I worry about the one coming at my face, right there, right then, and I move in a fashion away from it. It's elementary; just don't be there, you won't get hurt. With a large enough number, statistically you will get hit, something will get through. And I've noticed that the less I worry about what's coming after, opportunities I missed, or focus on anything other than just right there and what is going on between me and him, the more I can actually react faster, move faster, and not get hit.

For each person I practice with a goal of letting 3 shots get in, but not hit me, and allow one to actually strike me, if they are particularly frustrated (hitting air makes people very frustrated). Usually I only get hit twice out of an exchange, against underbelts it can at times even be not at all. Against people of dan ranking I can expect around 5 strikes to land. But basing one's ability to defend off of ranking is silly; I am happy as long the strike does not hit me, and though I know it an impossible goal, I strive to never get hit. It just seems reasonable to me.

Even keeping evasion in mind, one still must be prepared for when something does inevitably land. What surprises me is how few martial artists know how to continuously fight when injured. During the Chung Do Kwan black belt exams, part of the initiation was if you broke your ribs during the exam, you finished the exam as you were, then. I did. Had I reported my injury an ambulance would have been called, and I would have failed because I did not complete the exam, and more importantly, not only did I let myself get hit... I let what I let get through interfere with something very important; my entire goal at the time as a martial artist. In short, if this were in terms of survival, it would not be likely. Being a black belt at that school was about the fighting spirit, with such emphasis that they treated knowledge of techniques, and execution, for a dan, as a given.

I've seen many jaws drop from the fact a green belt at Khan's Academy could whoop another TKD artist otherwhere. Part of me wonders if when putting this particular style of Chung Do Kwan together from his teacher, if Master Khan deliberately altered the style in a way which while keeping it chung do kwan, altered it so it would annihalate kickers. Ionno, theories and tangents.

It's all good to be able to take a hit, but if objects start getting involved, which they do on the street, it's a different story. You couldn't pay me to stand in the way of a baseball bat.

Perhaps you should take up knitting. Not so much contact there, so no worry about broken bones. Again, with the contradiction. In your 2nd paragraph, you say you dont follow a defensive path, yet in your 4th, you say that you can't be hit, if you're not there, which says that you're defensive.

Reading your posts Alex, tells me that a) you've never trained at a dojo that contact was allowed, b) your inst., if in fact you have you, doesnt believe in contact and c) that you've never been hit.

Sorry dude, the martial arts are about fighting and contact. If someone can't hack it, perhaps its not for them.

 

[Zenjael]

The juxtaposition of desiring not to be hit, but being practical that inevitably you will be, will best prepare you for when you do get hit. But why put yourself in the line of fire unnecessarily? The same kind of reasoning led to trench war-fare and the very bad tactics of WW1; hit em, and keep hitting, and keep throwing men, and weapons, and energy, until either you run out or they do. But change your tactic, you suddenly don't have to worry about loss as much.

You guys seem to think that my aversion to contact is because of some kind of fear of pain, or inability to take it. Maybe... how much are we talking about? I've never winced having a bone re-set or shifted, but I will tell you putting rubbing alcohol on a cat scratch will. I bite my hands; though I should say I suppose I did bite my hands, because as of April 1st I haven't done that or any intoxicants... I have once stuck a hand very cut up from anxiety into a bucket of bleach without considering the tiny nicks from biting. It wasn't pleasant, at all, but it was far more tolerable than I thought it would be. If you don't think about the pain, and push it aside, it can't really affect you. I have heard of pain management techniques where they visualize the pain experienced in a physical form, as say, a knife, and when they pull it out, this can cause the pain to actually go away. Pain is mental.

But pain isn't the issue. In practice you have pads, and targets, and all sorts of plastic and nylon and whatnot. I have a friend who is in jail for life now, because he made the simple choice of extending his leg all the way when executing a side kick, instead of just holding it back by a tiny fraction of an inch. That's the difference training with contact can make. And this is my thought on it- Once you know you can take a hit, and can give a hit, stop getting hit, and stop hitting people. For me I knew I could take a hit when on 3 v1 my rib cage was shattered... and I ended up fighting for another 20 minutes, and finishing the exam 4 hours later. I think that is sufficient for me, anything more might be considered some kinda fetish. What was the alternative? Fail, and not get a chance to test again for five years? No thank you. No matter your degree of control, one day you will screw up and seriously hurt someone. I know of a lot of masters who have, and their students shrug it off because it's their master, and completely ignore that the entire snafu occurred because it's impossible to actually be perfect. It's what happens when people are promoted to a rank before they are ready.

To be honest, the reason my fighting style is so evasive and the emphasis on speed, is because it is being adapted specifically for knives. While I am happy to say that I can do those 7 punches in a second, and each is an actual punch with results, I don't have to worry about that when the hand and fist is no longer so, instead replaced by knives.

Because I've got the draw down to well under a sucker for getting them out, and there is no place you can grab or throw me at where I can't access another on my person. I have no intention, if I am mugged again, of letting the person go. Last time that happened, a young girl got raped. At this point, I stress I want no confrontation, and will do what I can to stop things before using martial arts. Talking has worked in the past, and I am certain it will in the future. That being said, they pull a weapon, or turn the situation lethal on a level I can tell it is going to be, you better believe I'll have at least one of my knives drawn and either at their throat if it's that bad, or warding them. If they have a gun, I'm not asking questions or warding. Because you see, that kind of speed allows one to retain control of the situation, which will occur at normally about the range of your opponents outstretched arm.

It gives me an extra degree of security, knowing that even when things get hairy, that as a final defense my actual art is incomplete until that knife is in my hand. Speed trumps power, and power can trump speed, if for whatever reason that thing which is speeding decided to remain in the way, and you can't throw a punch without acceleration, and you can't move without force to initiate. Likewise, the natural form of fighting which comes to me most, I almost never get to use, and have never on the street.

I had a gut reaction to want to go nonononnnono I can do this and this and this and this. But the simple fact of the matter is taking this tactic means I don't really have to worry about the which gets in. Would you attack the person holding a knife, and clearly in a fashion which conveys he knows how to use it? I wouldn't. Hell, I'd run if I could, and that's with what I normally carry. On the street, chances are if I get decked, it won't matter my preparation or conditioning... if you round the corner and get clocked in the temple, it's lights out. So it comes full circle, as somebody experienced in martial arts, why would we deliberately strike people to areas capable of taking the most damage?

The midsection is one such area. Most of the conditioning there, doesn't do anything to condition our vitals. And even the people who take full out (epic) kicks to the groin, speak less about a technique, and more about mental pain repression, which is more the realm of meditation. When the person gets hit in the throat, he has awesome degree of control over the energy flowing from the impact. I stress not wasting techniques, and unless it's being used to trick the enemy, there shouldn't be a reason to hit them from anywhere but these targets; the temple, upper lip, jaw and neck, just below the ear, to the inner throat, clavicles, sternum, solar plexus, upper arm and inner forearm, back or side of thigh, side or front of knee. Those, on a basic level, are what I aim for, and that offers me 14 prime choices, up and down the body, where if struck with enough force will completely neutralize the situation. Even this is unnecessary when you come back to the knives however. And honestly, out of all the points I just mentioned I doubt anybody conditions more than 3 of those I listed, and certainly not to the side of knee, temple, upper lip or clavicles. Conditioning is good for you... against an inexperienced martial artist trying to slam meat together like it's still the 1980s and ringside was all the rage. When you fight a master of the internal, my only advise is to not let them touch you if you can, because depending on how mean they feel, you might feel it the rest of your life, or lose your ability to do martial arts. Not in some mystical fashion, draining your power, but you get an ACL torn, or they completely screw up the internal processes of your body, you will not get to train for awhile. There are kicks which exist with so much force you can go blind, and styles which stomp so hard similar effects are known to occur. Xing yi is one. Fighting masters of those arts is not advisable, and generally speaking, no matter where martial artists start, if they train long enough, eventually they come to learn internal arts, even if they began with external. I don't mind getting hit by external blows... most are not that damaging precisely because the person doesn't know how to transfer energy well, and so use heavy hands or legs to compensate for lack of technique. But I swear to you, on my name as a martial artist, that there are some people you don't want touching you. Because they are so skilled, their index jab to the pressure point on your inner bicep might be hard enough, if they wanted, to stop your heart. And there is no kind of conditioning which will mitigate that level of energy channeling and utilization in your own body.

I agree, conditioning is a necessity... but once you've sharpened the blade, don't then run it down as some people. And I'd say people who can lift cements blocks with their testicles, or let people hit them with a baseball bat, are running the blade down. It's cool, but it's unnecessary. Because you aren't going to get hit in the chest, especially by a baseball bat. Heck, I'd consider myself lucky to get hit by a bat compared to the other choices out there. A family friend of Master Khan's died seconds after opening the door when the person drove a machete through their forearm and into their head. That's the reality you're dealing with. And no amount of conditioning will stop that. But you know what will...? Emphasis on evasion.

But I'll tell you what; let any taijiquan master have their fun with your body, just once, and you'll understand what I mean when I say you will never want to let a person of their class through your guard, or near you, if you have to fight them. It's not fear, it's just being smart. Some people, with some styles become demons. I've seen krav maga turn women who cried when they hit their boyfriends into people who would chew through someone's throat if it meant survival. And with how prevalent martial arts are today... chances are good you're fighting either somebody with some experience, or none, or even worse, has experience.

Because this is my question. If someone walked up to you with the ability to lacerate you with trained techniques 7 times in a second, and can keep them hidden the whole time, and able to get within 3 feet of you, do you think you'd survive? At the end of my rope, that is what I always have in my pocket, and why I favor knives as a weapon. Directing that question to myself I'll answer it honestly; no, I would die, certainly. Most people would, and it's not a matter of being better than anyone. And there are knife wielders faster than me, with better control. Think on that; what would you do if someone walked up, and attempted to stab you at least 5 times in one second? And instead of a wild strike like most are, they're targeted. Could you block them? Would you want to block them? Or would you get the heck out?

I train for realism, and I train for art and pleasure. But be realistic, please.

My degree in handling a knife I say as expert as a cautionary. Even the uneducated are lethal when wielding a knife. It is the most versatile weapon of all, can be incorporated into virtually every style which exists, and from just how it's held you can tell what you should do. I stick to straight knifes, or locking unfoldable ones. The way I see it, I have 5 identical knives on me, I should probably only refold the blade once the altercation is dealt with, and if I can't, I can always ditch it also. Such as if the police order you to drop your weapon. Not that I'm saying I'd engage the police, but if you have to pull knives, chances are they've already been called. And not early enough, even if the situation hasn't occurred yet.

The knife is just one of those things which came natural to me, and yes, while I know quite a few flashy techniques, I also have managed to come up with several innovative ways to both switch the knife, while simultaneously cutting. Where I came from, they acknowledged your skill with a blade when you could add to the pool of knowledge. I admire Fillipino knife fighting, but at the end of the day, there are an infinite many angles to cut from, and I try to hit as many of them as I can, with a straight line, as if the tip were a pen writing the ribbon line.

At Khan's, you knew how to disarm. But by the knife's very nature of ease of wielding, it will always be easier to handle it, than to defend against. That alone should be indicative that when an entire martial art style of fighting has been developed for wielding it, it might be best to avoid it. Anybody who does krav Maga, anybody who does the Fillipino arts, and anybody I know who does chung do kwan, has fantastic knife wielding ability. And the thing is, sadly, there are people out there who will kill you for your wallet or even shoes, who are even more skilled than the people we see on youtube.

And the thing is... all martial artists can be like that. Anybody reading this, with their training, if they unleashed it, would be horrified at what could result. Because at the end of the day, whether you think me capable of it or not, there are people out there better than what I've said here, who you could run into. I just hope when the time comes for survival you choose evasion over confrontation. Not robbery, or crime, or assault. Survival. Because if the answer to being asked are you CONFIDENT you would survive is no, then while realistic, you should still be training as much as possible until you can answer yes.

Though to be honest, I can imagine if it were posed like that by Master Khan, no would ever say yes because there'd probably be some kind of initiation to make you prove it. Having only held a bo staff once before when I began (to see, I guess, if I had any skill, or to just let me get wailed on, or both) he had me fight a 2nd dan. I wasn't too bad, and he was happy. I'm just saying, unless you can say yes to yourself to the above question, you need to go back and go over everything. Because I run off the basic assumption that if I'm attacked, I'm dead. While in training, I ask myself, what can I do to stop that? And when I'm attacked, there is no other option than survival.

I kinda run off a lot of epistemology which contradicts itself. The juxtaposition actually builds on itself, making it stronger. I train as if I were going to die, so I will not die, to put it more poetically.

I am not sure who you are proving anything to by getting hit, aside from the fact that you stayed where you were to take the punch. I know a lot of people who can do the same in chung do kwan, who with heavy gis (a lot of people neglect that heavy cloth does mitigate force... hence why the iron grip of jiujitsu masters rarely rips them. That's a huge amount of pressure to have to mitigate so the cloth won't tear, and that same cloth the energy of a punch has to go through if you wear a heavy gi) I just think that what gave you the ability to get hit, while in part was the experience of having been so, is mainly due to conditioning you do through generic exercises. If you condition properly, every two days, you should be getting hit round 50-100 times anyway, and that's with just kicks to the legs and stomach. You should be getting hit if you are conditioning, but there is no reason to get hit while practicing for anything involving fighting or survival. There's a difference between expecting, and planning on, and if you plan on getting hit, I think it's a bad plan. I expect to get hit when I spar because I am human, and fallible, and I am not some perfect demi-god of martial arts. I can, and will get hit when I practice; and I want to be, and enjoy it when it happens, unless it's some unusually excrutiating thing like the uberclash of elbow and shin, etc. lol. I enjoy getting hit because that's when you do get to feel pain- which is to your advantage. It tells you your weaknesses, and where not to let down your guard, or at least make you more cognizent of the vulnerabilities of you and your style. I firmly advise trying things during sparring, to learn the strengths and weaknesses of each respective style. All of them have their vulnerabilities and deficiencies, strengths, and intent.

I hope you stay safe.

 

[Grenadier]

The juxtaposition of desiring not to be hit, but being practical that inevitably you will be, will best prepare you for when you do get hit. But why put yourself in the line of fire unnecessarily? The same kind of reasoning led to trench war-fare and the very bad tactics of WW1; hit em, and keep hitting, and keep throwing men, and weapons, and energy, until either you run out or they do. But change your tactic, you suddenly don't have to worry about loss as much.

If you can hit someone, then you can also be hit. Most schools of Karate (not just Kyokushin Kai) accept this, and teach to you make a committed attack, with the idea that it's up to you to finish the fight, and you won't finish it by dancing around and hoping that your opponent runs out of energy.

You guys seem to think that my aversion to contact is because of some kind of fear of pain, or inability to take it. Maybe... how much are we talking about? I've never winced having a bone re-set or shifted,

I have witnessed several classes at the local Kyokushin dojos run by Oyama Yasuhiko, and I don't see bones being broken despite full contact, since they still spar in a controlled way. For that matter, they do teach blocking, evasion, etc., with the understanding that it's better to finish the fight earlier than later. The worst they get are maybe some bruises and sore ribs.

Almost anyone who is a black belt and has several years of experience, should be well-conditioned enough to withstand a good number of blows to the body under normal kumite situations. Given your situation, where you apparently have several black belt rankings, I would have to guess that you're in pretty good condition, and you shouldn't be afraid of taking a shot to the body during regular kumite against opponents who can exercise control, yet still perform vigorously applied techniques.

But pain isn't the issue. In practice you have pads, and targets, and all sorts of plastic and nylon and whatnot. I have a friend who is in jail for life now, because he made the simple choice of extending his leg all the way when executing a side kick, instead of just holding it back by a tiny fraction of an inch. That's the difference training with contact can make.

I am guessing that if he has a life in prison sentence, then he was doing something bad to begin with. Whether or not he had extended his leg all the way while throwing that side kick, or holding back isn't that much of an issue here, since he was still doing something wrong (in a lawful sense). If he were legitimately defending himself, then even a public defender could get the charges dismissed...

And this is my thought on it- Once you know you can take a hit, and can give a hit, stop getting hit, and stop hitting people. For me I knew I could take a hit when on 3 v1 my rib cage was shattered...

If your rib cage really were shattered, you'd have bone fragments puncturing your lungs... Furthermore, having your rib cage shattered tells me that either your partners lack control and shouldn't be engaging in such sparring, or that you are extremely reckless and all but blundered into someone's strike.

and I ended up fighting for another 20 minutes, and finishing the exam 4 hours later.

That must be quite impressive with all of those bone shards puncturing your lungs...

I think that is sufficient for me, anything more might be considered some kinda fetish. What was the alternative? Fail, and not get a chance to test again for five years?

What kind of Sensei / Sahbum / Sifu makes you wait for five years?

No thank you. No matter your degree of control, one day you will screw up and seriously hurt someone.

I vigorously spar with other adult black belts at tournaments, and have taken quite a few solid shots, and am doing just fine. I have also hit my opponents with vigorously applied punches and kicks. They're doing just fine as well, and even join me for a few rounds of cold beer after the tournament...

To be honest, the reason my fighting style is so evasive and the emphasis on speed, is because it is being adapted specifically for knives. While I am happy to say that I can do those 7 punches in a second, and each is an actual punch with results, I don't have to worry about that when the hand and fist is no longer so, instead replaced by knives.

I strongly doubt that you're so evasive that you can't be hit. Furthermore, there is no way you can throw 7 full power punches in 1 second with any kind of significant hip rotation. If I were a betting man, I would gladly wager that people would rather take 7 of your punches before they take 1 of mine thrown with proper hip rotation and forward momentum.

Again, if you can actually take the time to throw 7 punches, rest assured, your opponent can certainly take the time to throw punches at you, and probably more effectively.

Because I've got the draw down to well under a sucker for getting them out, and there is no place you can grab or throw me at where I can't access another on my person. I have no intention, if I am mugged again, of letting the person go. Last time that happened, a young girl got raped. At this point, I stress I want no confrontation, and will do what I can to stop things before using martial arts. Talking has worked in the past, and I am certain it will in the future. That being said, they pull a weapon, or turn the situation lethal on a level I can tell it is going to be, you better believe I'll have at least one of my knives drawn and either at their throat if it's that bad, or warding them. If they have a gun, I'm not asking questions or warding. Because you see, that kind of speed allows one to retain control of the situation, which will occur at normally about the range of your opponents outstretched arm.

Whoa... Here you are preaching about how your friend is in prison for life because he used a side kick, and you're talking about using knives?

It gives me an extra degree of security, knowing that even when things get hairy, that as a final defense my actual art is incomplete until that knife is in my hand. Speed trumps power, and power can trump speed, if for whatever reason that thing which is speeding decided to remain in the way, and you can't throw a punch without acceleration, and you can't move without force to initiate. Likewise, the natural form of fighting which comes to me most, I almost never get to use, and have never on the street.

Sorry, but the only street where your theories work would be on Sesame Street...

 

[Kenlee25]

[/QUOTE ]I strongly doubt that you're so evasive that you can't be hit. Furthermore, there is no way you can throw 7 full power punches in 1 second with any kind of significant hip rotation. If I were a betting man, I would gladly wager that people would rather take 7 of your punches before they take 1 of mine thrown with proper hip rotation and forward momentum.

[/QUOTE]

Wing chun says hi

Also, I appreciate all of the comments thus far. I understand that kyukoshin fighters are tough as nails now, I was just really interesting in it because, as far as I know, it's the only martial art that employs the philosophy that getting hit is okay as long as you hit them back. Most other arts will tell you to avoid getting hit AND hit the other guy. It's interesting to me is all.

also, not all styles pull punches. Last I checked, muay thai, jeet kune do, and okinawan karate all do full contact ( again I may be wrong ) just with gloves on.

also, Zenjeal, you should put some contact into your sparring. I don't have a lot of full contact stories, but I do remember my fight with my MMA ( TKD, Judo, BJJ ) friend billy. We did full contact to everywhere but the face, and to the face we allowed full contact palm strikes. actually being hit really helped me to improve my game, and toughened me up as well. I could tell niether of us were pulling punches, because he nearly took my head off with a kick had I not dodged it. If you want to be safe outside the dojo, then then sparring like that ( full contact to body, lighter to face ) is a good bet. When you are outside of the dojo and you are sparring, it also releases some adrenaline...at least I think it did...because I really didn't feel anything until after we were done. Learning to fight with adrenaline helps

 

[elder999]

I bite my hands; though I should say I suppose I did bite my hands, because as of April 1st I haven't done that or any intoxicants... I have once stuck a hand very cut up from anxiety into a bucket of bleach without considering the tiny nicks from biting. It wasn't pleasant, at all, but it was far more tolerable than I thought it would be.

I have a friend who is in jail for life now, because he made the simple choice of extending his leg all the way when executing a side kick, instead of just holding it back by a tiny fraction of an inch. That's

I ended up fighting for another 20 minutes, and finishing the exam 4 hours

To be honest, the reason my fighting style is so evasive and the emphasis on speed, is because it is being adapted specifically for knives. While I am happy to say that I can do those 7 punches in a second, and each is an actual punch with results, I don't have to worry about that when the hand and fist is no longer so, instead replaced by knives.

Because I've got the draw down to well under a sucker for getting them out, and there is no place you can grab or throw me at where I can't access another on my person.

I train for realism, and I train for art and pleasure. But be realistic, please.

My degree in handling a knife I say as expert as a cautionary.

I hope you stay safe.

I get it now. You're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you, son?

 

[Twin Fist]

you should be proud of my restraint....

 

[elder999]

you should be proud of my restraint....

Indeed, I am........:lol:

 

[K-man]

I'm biting my tongue but it's coming out .... I'm sorry it won't stay down ... Noooooo!!

Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll

Damn!

 

[MJS]

The juxtaposition of desiring not to be hit, but being practical that inevitably you will be, will best prepare you for when you do get hit. But why put yourself in the line of fire unnecessarily? The same kind of reasoning led to trench war-fare and the very bad tactics of WW1; hit em, and keep hitting, and keep throwing men, and weapons, and energy, until either you run out or they do. But change your tactic, you suddenly don't have to worry about loss as much.

Oh my God...seriously dude? LOL. If you dont know what its like to be hit in a controlled setting, I'm sorry to say, but you're going to be ****ed in the real world.

You guys seem to think that my aversion to contact is because of some kind of fear of pain, or inability to take it. Maybe... how much are we talking about? I've never winced having a bone re-set or shifted, but I will tell you putting rubbing alcohol on a cat scratch will. I bite my hands; though I should say I suppose I did bite my hands, because as of April 1st I haven't done that or any intoxicants... I have once stuck a hand very cut up from anxiety into a bucket of bleach without considering the tiny nicks from biting. It wasn't pleasant, at all, but it was far more tolerable than I thought it would be. If you don't think about the pain, and push it aside, it can't really affect you. I have heard of pain management techniques where they visualize the pain experienced in a physical form, as say, a knife, and when they pull it out, this can cause the pain to actually go away. Pain is mental.

Your aversion to contact tells us just that...that you've never really been hit. The clip that you put up of your 'sparring' was proof of just that. More dancing around, tossing out tippy tappy shots into the air.....

But pain isn't the issue. In practice you have pads, and targets, and all sorts of plastic and nylon and whatnot. I have a friend who is in jail for life now, because he made the simple choice of extending his leg all the way when executing a side kick, instead of just holding it back by a tiny fraction of an inch. That's the difference training with contact can make. And this is my thought on it- Once you know you can take a hit, and can give a hit, stop getting hit, and stop hitting people. For me I knew I could take a hit when on 3 v1 my rib cage was shattered... and I ended up fighting for another 20 minutes, and finishing the exam 4 hours later. I think that is sufficient for me, anything more might be considered some kinda fetish. What was the alternative? Fail, and not get a chance to test again for five years? No thank you. No matter your degree of control, one day you will screw up and seriously hurt someone. I know of a lot of masters who have, and their students shrug it off because it's their master, and completely ignore that the entire snafu occurred because it's impossible to actually be perfect. It's what happens when people are promoted to a rank before they are ready.

So...what're you saying...that because you wear pads its not the same? Well, as I've said, the pads that we wear in Kyokushin provide some protection, but when you get hit, you may as well not be wearing anything, because you feel each shot..lol. Furthermore, many of the full contact Kyokushin matches are bare-knuckle. Did you see those clips Elder posted? Like I said dude, if you're afraid of contact, afraid of getting hit, then the arts aren't for you!

To be honest, the reason my fighting style is so evasive and the emphasis on speed, is because it is being adapted specifically for knives. While I am happy to say that I can do those 7 punches in a second, and each is an actual punch with results, I don't have to worry about that when the hand and fist is no longer so, instead replaced by knives.

Who the hell cares about 7 hits in a sec! Not me, and I doubt anyone else cares either. What does that prove? Nothing! Your style is adapted towards knives? LOL...what?!?!?!?!?! I'm afraid that this is yet another thing you're lacking in..dealing with weapons. Like I've said...you can't run forever.

Because I've got the draw down to well under a sucker for getting them out, and there is no place you can grab or throw me at where I can't access another on my person. I have no intention, if I am mugged again, of letting the person go. Last time that happened, a young girl got raped. At this point, I stress I want no confrontation, and will do what I can to stop things before using martial arts. Talking has worked in the past, and I am certain it will in the future. That being said, they pull a weapon, or turn the situation lethal on a level I can tell it is going to be, you better believe I'll have at least one of my knives drawn and either at their throat if it's that bad, or warding them. If they have a gun, I'm not asking questions or warding. Because you see, that kind of speed allows one to retain control of the situation, which will occur at normally about the range of your opponents outstretched arm.

Yes where is that knife clip you said you were going to post? Where did you learn to properly use weapons again? And I'm not talking about the tournament demo clip that was posted either.

It gives me an extra degree of security, knowing that even when things get hairy, that as a final defense my actual art is incomplete until that knife is in my hand. Speed trumps power, and power can trump speed, if for whatever reason that thing which is speeding decided to remain in the way, and you can't throw a punch without acceleration, and you can't move without force to initiate. Likewise, the natural form of fighting which comes to me most, I almost never get to use, and have never on the street.

Sorry, I'd rather have a powerful shot, over a fast, crappy one, with no power behind it.

I had a gut reaction to want to go nonononnnono I can do this and this and this and this. But the simple fact of the matter is taking this tactic means I don't really have to worry about the which gets in. Would you attack the person holding a knife, and clearly in a fashion which conveys he knows how to use it? I wouldn't. Hell, I'd run if I could, and that's with what I normally carry. On the street, chances are if I get decked, it won't matter my preparation or conditioning... if you round the corner and get clocked in the temple, it's lights out. So it comes full circle, as somebody experienced in martial arts, why would we deliberately strike people to areas capable of taking the most damage?

Why the hell are we talking about knives in a Kyokushin sparring thread? Dude, you can't stay on track..lol. And on the street, yes, if you get decked it probably will be lights out, because you've never really been hit.

The midsection is one such area. Most of the conditioning there, doesn't do anything to condition our vitals. And even the people who take full out (epic) kicks to the groin, speak less about a technique, and more about mental pain repression, which is more the realm of meditation. When the person gets hit in the throat, he has awesome degree of control over the energy flowing from the impact. I stress not wasting techniques, and unless it's being used to trick the enemy, there shouldn't be a reason to hit them from anywhere but these targets; the temple, upper lip, jaw and neck, just below the ear, to the inner throat, clavicles, sternum, solar plexus, upper arm and inner forearm, back or side of thigh, side or front of knee. Those, on a basic level, are what I aim for, and that offers me 14 prime choices, up and down the body, where if struck with enough force will completely neutralize the situation. Even this is unnecessary when you come back to the knives however. And honestly, out of all the points I just mentioned I doubt anybody conditions more than 3 of those I listed, and certainly not to the side of knee, temple, upper lip or clavicles. Conditioning is good for you... against an inexperienced martial artist trying to slam meat together like it's still the 1980s and ringside was all the rage. When you fight a master of the internal, my only advise is to not let them touch you if you can, because depending on how mean they feel, you might feel it the rest of your life, or lose your ability to do martial arts. Not in some mystical fashion, draining your power, but you get an ACL torn, or they completely screw up the internal processes of your body, you will not get to train for awhile. There are kicks which exist with so much force you can go blind, and styles which stomp so hard similar effects are known to occur. Xing yi is one. Fighting masters of those arts is not advisable, and generally speaking, no matter where martial artists start, if they train long enough, eventually they come to learn internal arts, even if they began with external. I don't mind getting hit by external blows... most are not that damaging precisely because the person doesn't know how to transfer energy well, and so use heavy hands or legs to compensate for lack of technique. But I swear to you, on my name as a martial artist, that there are some people you don't want touching you. Because they are so skilled, their index jab to the pressure point on your inner bicep might be hard enough, if they wanted, to stop your heart. And there is no kind of conditioning which will mitigate that level of energy channeling and utilization in your own body.

Umm....what? Dude, I fought 2 hard matches last night, and watched 1 other hard contact match. We're all still alive today...lol.

I agree, conditioning is a necessity... but once you've sharpened the blade, don't then run it down as some people. And I'd say people who can lift cements blocks with their testicles, or let people hit them with a baseball bat, are running the blade down. It's cool, but it's unnecessary. Because you aren't going to get hit in the chest, especially by a baseball bat. Heck, I'd consider myself lucky to get hit by a bat compared to the other choices out there. A family friend of Master Khan's died seconds after opening the door when the person drove a machete through their forearm and into their head. That's the reality you're dealing with. And no amount of conditioning will stop that. But you know what will...? Emphasis on evasion.

What??? LOL! Alex, snap back to reality here. WTF are you talking about?? LOL.

But I'll tell you what; let any taijiquan master have their fun with your body, just once, and you'll understand what I mean when I say you will never want to let a person of their class through your guard, or near you, if you have to fight them. It's not fear, it's just being smart. Some people, with some styles become demons. I've seen krav maga turn women who cried when they hit their boyfriends into people who would chew through someone's throat if it meant survival. And with how prevalent martial arts are today... chances are good you're fighting either somebody with some experience, or none, or even worse, has experience.

Because this is my question. If someone walked up to you with the ability to lacerate you with trained techniques 7 times in a second, and can keep them hidden the whole time, and able to get within 3 feet of you, do you think you'd survive? At the end of my rope, that is what I always have in my pocket, and why I favor knives as a weapon. Directing that question to myself I'll answer it honestly; no, I would die, certainly. Most people would, and it's not a matter of being better than anyone. And there are knife wielders faster than me, with better control. Think on that; what would you do if someone walked up, and attempted to stab you at least 5 times in one second? And instead of a wild strike like most are, they're targeted. Could you block them? Would you want to block them? Or would you get the heck out?

I train for realism, and I train for art and pleasure. But be realistic, please.

My degree in handling a knife I say as expert as a cautionary. Even the uneducated are lethal when wielding a knife. It is the most versatile weapon of all, can be incorporated into virtually every style which exists, and from just how it's held you can tell what you should do. I stick to straight knifes, or locking unfoldable ones. The way I see it, I have 5 identical knives on me, I should probably only refold the blade once the altercation is dealt with, and if I can't, I can always ditch it also. Such as if the police order you to drop your weapon. Not that I'm saying I'd engage the police, but if you have to pull knives, chances are they've already been called. And not early enough, even if the situation hasn't occurred yet.

The knife is just one of those things which came natural to me, and yes, while I know quite a few flashy techniques, I also have managed to come up with several innovative ways to both switch the knife, while simultaneously cutting. Where I came from, they acknowledged your skill with a blade when you could add to the pool of knowledge. I admire Fillipino knife fighting, but at the end of the day, there are an infinite many angles to cut from, and I try to hit as many of them as I can, with a straight line, as if the tip were a pen writing the ribbon line.

At Khan's, you knew how to disarm. But by the knife's very nature of ease of wielding, it will always be easier to handle it, than to defend against. That alone should be indicative that when an entire martial art style of fighting has been developed for wielding it, it might be best to avoid it. Anybody who does krav Maga, anybody who does the Fillipino arts, and anybody I know who does chung do kwan, has fantastic knife wielding ability. And the thing is, sadly, there are people out there who will kill you for your wallet or even shoes, who are even more skilled than the people we see on youtube.

And the thing is... all martial artists can be like that. Anybody reading this, with their training, if they unleashed it, would be horrified at what could result. Because at the end of the day, whether you think me capable of it or not, there are people out there better than what I've said here, who you could run into. I just hope when the time comes for survival you choose evasion over confrontation. Not robbery, or crime, or assault. Survival. Because if the answer to being asked are you CONFIDENT you would survive is no, then while realistic, you should still be training as much as possible until you can answer yes.

Though to be honest, I can imagine if it were posed like that by Master Khan, no would ever say yes because there'd probably be some kind of initiation to make you prove it. Having only held a bo staff once before when I began (to see, I guess, if I had any skill, or to just let me get wailed on, or both) he had me fight a 2nd dan. I wasn't too bad, and he was happy. I'm just saying, unless you can say yes to yourself to the above question, you need to go back and go over everything. Because I run off the basic assumption that if I'm attacked, I'm dead. While in training, I ask myself, what can I do to stop that? And when I'm attacked, there is no other option than survival.

I kinda run off a lot of epistemology which contradicts itself. The juxtaposition actually builds on itself, making it stronger. I train as if I were going to die, so I will not die, to put it more poetically.

I am not sure who you are proving anything to by getting hit, aside from the fact that you stayed where you were to take the punch. I know a lot of people who can do the same in chung do kwan, who with heavy gis (a lot of people neglect that heavy cloth does mitigate force... hence why the iron grip of jiujitsu masters rarely rips them. That's a huge amount of pressure to have to mitigate so the cloth won't tear, and that same cloth the energy of a punch has to go through if you wear a heavy gi) I just think that what gave you the ability to get hit, while in part was the experience of having been so, is mainly due to conditioning you do through generic exercises. If you condition properly, every two days, you should be getting hit round 50-100 times anyway, and that's with just kicks to the legs and stomach. You should be getting hit if you are conditioning, but there is no reason to get hit while practicing for anything involving fighting or survival. There's a difference between expecting, and planning on, and if you plan on getting hit, I think it's a bad plan. I expect to get hit when I spar because I am human, and fallible, and I am not some perfect demi-god of martial arts. I can, and will get hit when I practice; and I want to be, and enjoy it when it happens, unless it's some unusually excrutiating thing like the uberclash of elbow and shin, etc. lol. I enjoy getting hit because that's when you do get to feel pain- which is to your advantage. It tells you your weaknesses, and where not to let down your guard, or at least make you more cognizent of the vulnerabilities of you and your style. I firmly advise trying things during sparring, to learn the strengths and weaknesses of each respective style. All of them have their vulnerabilities and deficiencies, strengths, and intent.

I hope you stay safe.

I was going to reply to this, but figured why bother. You're, as usual, too busy making yourself seem like the deadliest warrior!! LMFAO!! Yes, you've said it numerous times, how dangerous you supposedly are. Now, instead of talking all this ********, get your *** to a real dojo and do some real training. Snap back to reality and forget about fantasy land.

 

[Kinghercules]

I've recently been watching quite a bit of kyukoshin sparring vids on youtube. I really admire the beating these guys can take, not everyone can just pound on each other's chest, abs, and legs like that. Insane stuff. But what thing always stands out to me, They don't really block or avoid strikes much. Whereas most fighters seem to have a more defensive position in mind ( "my goal is to NOT get hit" ) kyukoshin fighters in kumite go all out in extreme close range with kicks and punches wailing at eachother, even employing the wheel kick ( sacrifice kick ) to score on the opponent. Kumite often results in a knockout moreso than any other martial art sparring I know. I also noticed it is very straight line. Kyukoshin fighters ( like I said, these guys are TOUGH ) hold their ground and have very solid durable stances. It's unlike any other sparring I've seen before.

my question is, what kind of artist does this breed? do you have a martial artist immune to all pain that doesn't care about being hit on the street? Who just takes it and wails on the other guy until his bones break? Who comes out the fight battered, bruised, maybe even bloodied, but inevitably the victor? Or is it mostly for sport?


NOTE: I have had absolutely no kyukoshin or for that matter karate training in my life and my friends are all TKD, Judo, Wing chun, and MMA practioners, which is why it looks so wierd to me.

Im a fan of Kyukoshin Karate as well. Ive never heard of it until I saw the video "Fighting Black Kings". I fell in love with that video because it reminded me how we use to train in our dojo. I came up in Taekwondo and we trained and fought hard like they did. We never wore pads or gloves and we made contact when we fought but it wasnt at full power. Ive never been hurt in the dojo coming up as a kid. I think Kyukoshin fighters are some of the badest around but I know TKD ppl that have fought and beatin Kyukoshin fighters. So it would really depend on the fighter itself to say which is better. William Oliver trained in Kyukoshin and fought in Japanese and Korean tournaments and would win. Mike Warren (from my school) use to always meet William Oliver in the finals or semi-finals at the All American Open in NY back in the day. And all tournaments are mostly for sport. I would love to compete in a Kyukoshin Karate tournament just to see if I can hang. Because the way I was taught to fight, Im not just goin to stand there and let someone beat on me. LOL!!