Kwans refused to be TKD

[chrispillertkd]

2. There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo). Due to anti japanese/chinese mindset this has been left out of many textbooks.

This is an interesting comment. Which of the Kwans practiced Daito Ryu?

There were more than five Kwans involved in the Taekwon-Do unification movement.

I do know many Koreans still have an anti-Japanese attitude due to the Japanese occupation of Korea but am not familiar with a general anti-Chinese attitude. In fact, the name Tang Soo Do was used by people because it had a Chinese connotation instead of the Japanese connotation that Kong Soo Do had.

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by msmitht
2. There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo). Due to anti japanese/chinese mindset this has been left out of many textbooks.

This is an interesting comment. Which of the Kwans practiced Daito Ryu?

Puunui will help us with this & this is addressed in the Modern History.
The Jidokwan opened after the liberation in a Judo school that operated during the occupation. Also 1 of the 7 Koreans that went abroad & brought back martial arts to Korea, also studied Judo (Yoon or Chun, I always mix them up). One was close with another & they most likely shared judo with the other.

There were more than five Kwans involved in the Taekwon-Do unification movement.

Yes there were, but there were only 5 original kwans (civilian) & 6 early kwans, with the Oh Do kwan being the 6th, as Gen Choi was 1 of the 7 that went abroad & was teaching TangSuDo to his troops since 1946. (Lt Nam (retired-Colonel) started teaching in the army in 1947. So the 6 early kwans trace their roots to these 7 learning abroad & 1944-47 teaching in Korea. I think 9 kwans signed the unification agreement in August of 1978, with a 10th kwan added as an administrative kwan. There is no way to come up with a real hard number of ow many kwans unified Kukki TKD, unless you 1st set up criteria as to what comprises a kwan & not a sub-kwan or off shoot kwan. Some if not many would say that the Oh Do kwan was a sub-kwan or off shoot of the Chung Do kwan. They can make a strong argument for that case, depending on the criteria that sets the ground work. I disagree with that, but do acknowledge that it was not an original kwan & fits better in the term early kwan. Hence the equal seat at the KASA when the KTA was 1st formed with the 5 other kwans

I do know many Koreans still have an anti-Japanese attitude due to the Japanese occupation of Korea but am not familiar with a general anti-Chinese attitude. In fact, the name Tang Soo Do was used by people because it had a Chinese connotation instead of the Japanese connotation that Kong Soo Do had.

OK the Chinese sentiment is no where near the level of the hated Japanese & it comes in part from a different reason(s). Parts of China were occupied by the Japanese before & during the 2nd World War. Both Korea & China had a common enemy, Japan. Half of Korea was aligned with communist "Red China" post WWII. In fact, north Korea fought on the side of Red China against the Chinese Nationalists. If not, they would have probably attacked south Korea sooner, as a lot of fighting took place before the actual invasion of south Korea by the north on June 25, 1950. I think it has been documented by Dr. Cummings that the south actually killed more north Koreans prior to the official start of the Korean Civil War, as much fighting went back & forth, but it was not a full scale war, just deadly skirmishes. Additionally when Gen MacArthur ordered the Incheon Landing, the tide of the war was turned in favor of the US led UN coalition. Gen MacArthur brilliantly cut off & penned in the communist north Koreans & was now making the push north with no one to fight against. They would have unified Korea right then & there. However Red China entered the war, surrounded US Marines & Army soldiers, almost destroying them totally, until Gen Smith ordering to turn & fight there way to the harbor south. The war became a stalemate, with a cease fire being signed on July 27, 1953. No treaty was ever signed.

So naturally those in the south hate the communist Chinese. By even those in the north resent the big brother of Asia that China enjoys. Koreans are a proud people. There is a scholar from Princeton whose specialty is the relationship between north Korea & China. He has dug through countless papers released from the former USSR that sheds light on this relationship. He cautions that today's leaders be careful in their estimations of how much China can influence or control north Korea. I for one think he caution is worth heeding, especially given the current deadly happenings in Korea. His work has impressed me & introduced me to a concept that I was not aware of. North Korea wants a relationship with the US, more than they want to rely on China

 

[msmitht]

This is an interesting comment. Which of the Kwans practiced Daito Ryu?

There were more than five Kwans involved in the Taekwon-Do unification movement.

I do know many Koreans still have an anti-Japanese attitude due to the Japanese occupation of Korea but am not familiar with a general anti-Chinese attitude. In fact, the name Tang Soo Do was used by people because it had a Chinese connotation instead of the Japanese connotation that Kong Soo Do had.

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

My reference was to the original kwans, which my 1st gm told me there were 5. I had 2 gm's who were young children from northern korea b4 fleeing south to avoid communism and then war against family members and the chinese(korean war).

 

[msmitht]

Japanese ju jitsu, under various names and style differences, was called yawara and then later hapkido & yu do. Now they call it yong moo do and teach it in college.

 

[chrispillertkd]

My reference was to the original kwans, which my 1st gm told me there were 5. I had 2 gm's who were young children from northern korea b4 fleeing south to avoid communism and then war against family members and the chinese(korean war).

Which of those five practiced daito ryu?

Pax,

Chris

 

[msmitht]

Hapkido came from Daito Ryu. Show me a tkd gm over 60 who is not also a gm of hkd. They were taught at the same schools.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Hapkido came from Daito Ryu. Show me a tkd gm over 60 who is not also a gm of hkd. They were taught at the same schools.

Saying people cross-trained in Hapkido and Taekwon-Do is a lot different than saying "There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo)." As far as I know there is only one Taekwon-Do body that formally incorporated Hapkido into its syllabus (a Hapkido lineage that went back to GM Choi, Yong Sul). Others might have done so, but I haven't heard of any.

I believe Chun, Sang Sup practiced Judo before studying karate but I don't know how much Judo made it into the Choson Yun Moo Kwan (and then the Jidokwan). Byung, In Yoon studied Chuan Fa before training in Shudokan karate but, as far as I am aware, the Chang Moo Kwan schools who show a lot of the Chinese influence are few.

I'd be very interested in hearing about any Kwans that specifically incorporated Judo, Kung-Fu and/or Daito Ryu into their formal syllabus.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

Saying people cross-trained in Hapkido and Taekwon-Do is a lot different than saying "There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo)." As far as I know there is only one Taekwon-Do body that formally incorporated Hapkido into its syllabus (a Hapkido lineage that went back to GM Choi, Yong Sul). Others might have done so, but I haven't heard of any.

I believe Chun, Sang Sup practiced Judo before studying karate but I don't know how much Judo made it into the Choson Yun Moo Kwan (and then the Jidokwan). Byung, In Yoon studied Chuan Fa before training in Shudokan karate but, as far as I am aware, the Chang Moo Kwan schools who show a lot of the Chinese influence are few.

I'd be very interested in hearing about any Kwans that specifically incorporated Judo, Kung-Fu and/or Daito Ryu into their formal syllabus.

Pax,

Chris

I don't know of any KKW-affiliated schools that still do the Byung, In Yoon chuan fa forms. You can check out the Chayon-ryu (Kim, Pyung Soo) and Pasa-ryu (Rhee, Kang) groups which do retain these forms, but obviously they are in their own little worlds.

As for the Daito-ryu/Hapkido connection with the respective kwan curriculums, my thought is that it could not have been too strong or too interrelated, if at all. I've no nothing to prove it however, other than the circumstantial evidence that General Choi recruited a hapkido master to supplement the self-defense offerings in his system.

On the other hand, time and time again, I've read accounts that the early Koreans before, during, and after the formation period of TKD did commonly study judo as a group. I would guess that the likelihood of some judo influence making it into TKD is higher than Daito-ryu Aiki-jutsu.

 

[puunui]

Saying people cross-trained in Hapkido and Taekwon-Do is a lot different than saying "There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo)." As far as I know there is only one Taekwon-Do body that formally incorporated Hapkido into its syllabus (a Hapkido lineage that went back to GM Choi, Yong Sul). Others might have done so, but I haven't heard of any.

GM PARK Hae Man learned a little Hapkido from GM JI Han Jae when both were martial arts instructors at the Bluehouse. GM Park took many of the kicking techniques and some of the hand techniques incorporated it into Taekwondo. Mainly you can see it demonstrations, even today. I watch Taekwondo demonstrations and I am always thinking to myself, "that's Hapkido, this is Hapkido." And that WTF Hoshinsool book that we were talking about earlier is filled with Hapkido techniques.

So no, Master CHUNG Kee Tae (or is it KEE, Tae Chung?) wasn't the only person to incorporate Hapkido into Taekwondo.

Byung, In Yoon studied Chuan Fa before training in Shudokan karate but, as far as I am aware, the Chang Moo Kwan schools who show a lot of the Chinese influence are few.

His name is YOON Byung In, not In Yoon BYUNG, although you are free to believe his last name is Byung if you want to.

 

[puunui]

I don't know of any KKW-affiliated schools that still do the Byung, In Yoon chuan fa forms.

GM Hwa CHONG and GM Han Won LEE still teach them. GM Lee sent me his 7th Dan test video, and he was doing Jang Kwon in it. And every time I see Han Won, we do GM YOON Byung In's mongolian arm wrestling. He just asked me to be a judge at his next black belt test and I'm thinking about going. Haven't seen his new house yet. His old one, or the last one he had, which was in the same neighborhood as Jay Warwick's, was fabulous, but I heard this new one is even more so.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Glenn, you're just as helpful and pleasant as ever, brother. Not to worry, I'll point out the next typo you make, too

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Glenn, you're just as helpful and pleasant as ever, brother. Not to worry, I'll point out the next typo you make, too

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

No problem kid. And Happy New Year. Christmas passed about a week ago.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Christmas passed about a week ago.

Actually CHRISTmas is more than a single HOLYday for many people, including chrispillertkd. Many, myself included, feel that the CHRISTmas season is something that should last longer than even the holiday season that it occurs in, like all year long!
May the joy of the CHRISTmas Season last throughout all of 2011, helping to make this new year a better year for all!

 

[bluewaveschool]

GM Hwa CHONG and GM Han Won LEE still teach them. GM Lee sent me his 7th Dan test video, and he was doing Jang Kwon in it. And every time I see Han Won, we do GM YOON Byung In's mongolian arm wrestling. He just asked me to be a judge at his next black belt test and I'm thinking about going. Haven't seen his new house yet. His old one, or the last one he had, which was in the same neighborhood as Jay Warwick's, was fabulous, but I heard this new one is even more so.

So for his KKW 7th dan test he did a non-KKW form?

 

[chrispillertkd]

No problem kid. And Happy New Year. Christmas passed about a week ago.

You are quite incorrect, Glenn. Christmas lasts from Christmas Eve until the Epiphany. I'm sure you were just trying to be your usual helpful self, though

Thanks for calling me "kid," too, even though I haven't been one in a rather long time :lol:

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Come on guys. Use the ignore function if you cannot be civil to one another.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

So for his KKW 7th dan test he did a non-KKW form?

How is this possible since they do not even recognize that form anymore at the KKW?

 

[terryl965]

Come on guys. Use the ignore function if you cannot be civil to one another.

Daniel

Come on Daniel that would take all the fun out of the TKD section

 

[dowan50]

Did you read or hear the report of the Embassy communications released by the Wiki Leaks between the US and China? China states that it no longer considers the need of North Korea as a buffer zone and would welcome a reunification of the south and north to be a good future economic boon for China/

I wonder if that public communication release and our air craft carrier with nuclear weapons had something to do with the North not retaliating in response to the South's latest war games?
I also see a more hostile nature in the South related to calls for retaliation for the actions of the North compared to when I was there in 2008 and they cut the phone lines because they wanted the South to pay and install new communication equipment for them and I was shocked at how all the press and public comments were conciliatory sighting the need for open cooperation in the hopes of reuniting families?

I would really like to see a forum opened up on the North South relationship and what the hopes are for the future?

 

[leadleg]

How is this possible since they do not even recognize that form anymore at the KKW?

Testing at my school is doing all the KKW requirements,Plus.
Part of the plus for instance is fourteen extra forms for first Dan,or poom.