Kwans refused to be TKD

[puunui]

The patterns practiced in TKD undeniably have the stamp of other arts all over them, yet the actual sequence of movements have been changed and reshuffled.

About ten years ago, probably less than that, one of my objectives was to go back and study the old Palgwae poomsae and Pyongahn hyung, as well as revisited my Shotokan forms, and join my friend's Shorin Ryu school to understand the evolution. I mentioned this to GM Park and he said there was no need, that all I needed to do was practice the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae, as well as his Kibon exercises.

 

[dancingalone]

About ten years ago, probably less than that, one of my objectives was to go back and study the old Palgwae poomsae and Pyongahn hyung, as well as revisited my Shotokan forms, and join my friend's Shorin Ryu school to understand the evolution. I mentioned this to GM Park and he said there was no need, that all I needed to do was practice the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae, as well as his Kibon exercises.

It depends on your goals. From a discrete technique by technique basis, sure, there's no need to practice the older patterns if you already know one of the newer sets. A knife hand is a knife hand is a knife hand.

However, the sequencing of movements become important if you regard kata as holding important lessons for compound movement. An example of this might be a simultaneous evasion of a strike with an entry past the attacker's guard, concluding with a set up strike of your own and then a fight ending tech. If the 'original' pattern describes this set of movement as 1-2-3-4 and then a TKD pattern reassembles it to be 3-2-1-4 instead, the lesson obviously becomes altered too and the meaning is lost.

Now 3-2-1-4 might very well be something valuable in of itself too. Or it may not be. What we know for sure is that it's not 1-2-3-4 and thus you won't be learning what 1-2-3-4 is supposed to teach at all.

 

[puunui]

False,you must know the required curriculum, the skip dan is for those with the required time in but missed the advancment for some reason.It is allowed 1 time only.

You don't need to know the required curriculum, just someone who will submit the recommendation form. You can also skip from no dan to dan higher than 1st dan. And normally it is allowed one time only, but they made an exception at the US Open kukkiwon special test.

 

[puunui]

Now 3-2-1-4 might very well be something valuable in of itself too. Or it may not be. What we know for sure is that it's not 1-2-3-4 and thus you won't be learning what 1-2-3-4 is supposed to teach at all.

That is one of the things I wanted to go over, where it is 3214 and where it is 1234.

 

[dancingalone]

That is one of the things I wanted to go over, where it is 3214 and where it is 1234.

I'm having oodles of fun trying to translate karate bunkai onto the Chang Hon forms. I'm finding that this active translation and revision process actually makes me more knowledgeable about my original material. And I am running into enough obstacles to know that not all bunkai can be converted over. You can teach these exceptions in isolation as standalone applications, but it's more confusing than it is worth to try to link them to a specific passage in the Choi forms.

 

[terryl965]

You don't need to know the required curriculum, just someone who will submit the recommendation form. You can also skip from no dan to dan higher than 1st dan. And normally it is allowed one time only, but they made an exception at the US Open kukkiwon special test.

The US Open KKW test was a major miss up and it probaly will stop that from ever happening again. People with no KKW rank was asking for a 5th, 6th and 7th Dan just because they never recieved any type of KKW certificate. There was even people there that did not even know the proper poomsae.

Puunui do you believe any other org maybe able to step in and correct the wrong that happen down the road?

 

[puunui]

Puunui do you believe any other org maybe able to step in and correct the wrong that happen down the road?

I'm having my doubts. I think certain individuals or groups can be helped, because of their respectful and sincere attitudes towards the Kukkiwon, but the rest are pretty much on their own. I know I don't want to help them and if I don't, then the probability is very low that anyone else will want to.

 

[leadleg]

You don't need to know the required curriculum, just someone who will submit the recommendation form. You can also skip from no dan to dan higher than 1st dan. And normally it is allowed one time only, but they made an exception at the US Open kukkiwon special test.

If you were to go to the KKW to test,and you did not know the requirements would you pass?

 

[puunui]

If you were to go to the KKW to test,and you did not know the requirements would you pass?

I guess non-Korean practitioners who live outside of Korea could go and test at the Kukkiwon for ranks lower than 8th Dan, but it is rare. For most, especially for 2nd Dan, practitioners get promoted via recommendation signed by their instructor. Isn't that how you promote your students?

 

[leadleg]

Of course I recommend if the requirements are met,when I have someone join from an ITF or ATA style they may wear the rank they come with but must eventually earn their KKW by doing the requirements.
When I attended the instructor training course there was no provision for recommendation without at least the rudimentary knowledge of the forms.
What I feel you are suggesting is that there are no reasons for the requirements and that anyone over 4th should be recommending any praticioner of any style, KKW.
While you say this is the intent of the pioneers I would say it is not the intent of the KKW,otherwise it would be set up to accept any forms.
In fact it sounds as if you would hand out KKW just to have members regardless of the KKW standards.
I find that the students I have coming from various tkd backgrounds have no problem learning the KKW forms, not perfecting but knowing the moves in about one year,averaging three times a week and practicing at home.What would be the point of rushing that along?

 

[puunui]

Of course I recommend if the requirements are met,when I have someone join from an ITF or ATA style they may wear the rank they come with but must eventually earn their KKW by doing the requirements.
When I attended the instructor training course there was no provision for recommendation without at least the rudimentary knowledge of the forms.
What I feel you are suggesting is that there are no reasons for the requirements and that anyone over 4th should be recommending any praticioner of any style, KKW.
While you say this is the intent of the pioneers I would say it is not the intent of the KKW,otherwise it would be set up to accept any forms.
In fact it sounds as if you would hand out KKW just to have members regardless of the KKW standards.
I find that the students I have coming from various tkd backgrounds have no problem learning the KKW forms, not perfecting but knowing the moves in about one year,averaging three times a week and practicing at home.What would be the point of rushing that along?

Did you read my three stages of unification post? You are looking at things from a dojang perspective. Nothing wrong with that. My perspective and focus is different.

 

[leadleg]

Yes I understand your prospective on that, and I could see the KKW superiors wanting to bring in all the bb's from an org, then get them on track. I do believe though that if the KKW wanted to bring in any and everyone it would have made provisions for all forms/poomse,instead it has set up specific requirements.
I feel as though you are relating to this board that KKW does not care about the very requirements they created.In general you won't find many KKW instructors giving out KKW with no knowledge of the forms.

 

[terryl965]

I'm having my doubts. I think certain individuals or groups can be helped, because of their respectful and sincere attitudes towards the Kukkiwon, but the rest are pretty much on their own. I know I don't want to help them and if I don't, then the probability is very low that anyone else will want to.

I thought you was looking for TKD to become one and everyone helping and teaching each other to get on that right track? Why would you not want to make thing better since that is what you have been saying? People can change there views if the right message is sent out.:asian:

 

[leadleg]

Did you read my three stages of unification post? You are looking at things from a dojang perspective. Nothing wrong with that. My perspective and focus is different.

I am glad you are speaking of your perspective, I believe with all the talk about what the pioneers wanted, and the unification it is still your perspective. At one time you may have had the ear of some political players, but at this time the way you speak about the WTF president,the KKW president,and the usat what political clout do you feel you have.Is there anyone at all that would help you achieve these goals or perspectives you have?
It would be nice if you could show one other person with any political clout who agrees with giving out KKW's wihtout testing's.
I am just looking for some clarification besides your perspective.

 

[bluewaveschool]

IF the KKW would accept other form sets (Chang Hon) then I'd seriously consider it. Which really, at the end of the day, a good instructor can watch a form that isn't part of their own personal style and pick out the good and bad performances. You can arrange the movements a million ways, you can only do a good stance one way. I don't know KKW forms, but I bet I could judge a performance fairly accurate. Not sure if Puunui is experienced with the Chang Hon patterns, but I would be fine on him sitting in on a test panel of my class even if he wasn't.

 

[puunui]

I am glad you are speaking of your perspective, I believe with all the talk about what the pioneers wanted, and the unification it is still your perspective. At one time you may have had the ear of some political players, but at this time the way you speak about the WTF president,the KKW president,and the usat what political clout do you feel you have.Is there anyone at all that would help you achieve these goals or perspectives you have?
It would be nice if you could show one other person with any political clout who agrees with giving out KKW's wihtout testing's.
I am just looking for some clarification besides your perspective.

I already explained it numerous times. If you wish to test your students, go ahead. But a test is not required. All that is required is a recommendation from someone who can make recommendations.

As for achieving "my" goals, the Kukkiwon and the Chung Do Kwan continue to assist me. Also just look around at all of the 2nd or 3rd generation seniors who have high Kukkiwon dan rank but still do not know or teach the Taeguek or yudanja poomsae. They didn't test for their rank.

As for ears, I didn't have the pioneer's ear; they had mine. I'm the one doing the listening and they were the ones doing the talking.

 

[leadleg]

What you are saying is you can get away with just a recomendation,the KKW holds exams at all levels of BB.All school owners I know hold exams,as they should if for nothing more than to assure we don't have any high dans running around that do not know the requirements.
Possibly you don't hold exams and just hand out rank,may be you did not take any exams and that you are politically advanced.
I personally would not accept rank without testing,although I have seen it done,and have seen some very poor high ranking taekwondoist.
This is the sort of thing we do not need,the handing out of rank,without the knowledge that the candidate can perform.I have sometimes wondered how did this person ever get through their exam? Possibly you gave them their rank. Why don't you just put your KKW number on the net and let everyone issue their own rank?
As for the ear,if you were a recorder then I would give more credence to you,as it is once it passes your ears it has to be assimalated through your thought process,what comes out the other side,your perspective of what you were told.
I appreciate the kwan info and the dates etc you put out also you have my gratitude for helping with the modern history.
I realise I am beating a dead horse here on this subject of exams,but this buisness of handing out rank is B.S.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The integrity of the one doing the recommendation is what keeps the process honest. If that person has poor, low or no integrity then the promotional process can become corrupted.
My understanding the special KKW skip test process was to help make students whole that may not have had the opportunity to test, to get KKW rank or were cheated by never getting the rank promised. I think that on paper this was a laudable goal if of course there was a process in place to fully investigate claims, applications & the candidates training history. This is where I think the process may have fell somewhat short from what I heard as an outsider. I am not sure how many you can test in a mass examination over a short weekend, even if you had a corresponding seminar.
The ITF does not call for a physical test for 7th Dan & above. However these ranks are handled by through ITF Promotion Committee & there are requirements, just not physical ones. But in the end, it always comes down to the personal integrity of those doing the recommendations & signing the applications.

 

[puunui]

What you are saying is you can get away with just a recomendation,the KKW holds exams at all levels of BB.All school owners I know hold exams,as they should if for nothing more than to assure we don't have any high dans running around that do not know the requirements.

What in your opinion, is a "high dan"?

Possibly you don't hold exams and just hand out rank,may be you did not take any exams and that you are politically advanced.

You might be right.

I personally would not accept rank without testing,although I have seen it done,and have seen some very poor high ranking taekwondoist.

I suppose that is one way to do it, setting the terms, conditions and standards of your own rank promotion. I always felt that sort of thing was up to the person promoting you.

This is the sort of thing we do not need,the handing out of rank,without the knowledge that the candidate can perform.

Why what happens if we do that? Are you some how diminished if someone who you judge unworthy receives a promotion?

I have sometimes wondered how did this person ever get through their exam? Possibly you gave them their rank.

Maybe I did. I've done a lot of promotions over the years, and no doubt you would disapprove and judge harshly those who were promoted. Some of the practitioners I have recommended Kukkiwon promotions to include olympians, olympic medalists, world medalists, an olympic coach, IRs, national team members, national champions, JO champions, junior team members, junior medalists, poomsae national team members, and a whole bunch of participants at USTU and USAT national events over the years.

Why don't you just put your KKW number on the net and let everyone issue their own rank?

Because then all those certificates would come to me and I wouldn't know who to give them to.

As for the ear,if you were a recorder then I would give more credence to you,as it is once it passes your ears it has to be assimalated through your thought process,what comes out the other side,your perspective of what you were told.

It's right in the modern history book, if you don't like my perspective.

I appreciate the kwan info and the dates etc you put out also you have my gratitude for helping with the modern history.

I think I am going to stop doing that. I think I will start treating historical information and perspectives like some people award promotions -- it should only be given out to those who are "worthy". I think I should just let inevitability take its course.

I realise I am beating a dead horse here on this subject of exams,but this buisness of handing out rank is B.S.

Not if rank is meaningless.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It's right in the modern history book, if you don't like my perspective.

This can be somewhat problematic, as the Modern History contains some mistakes as you label them, as they do not go along with your perspective.

I think I am going to stop doing that. I think I will start treating historical information and perspectives like some people award promotions -- it should only be given out to those who are "worthy". I think I should just let inevitability take its course.

I hope that you will continue to share the great knowledge that you have, as readers can only benefit, I know I do & would encourage you, a competent, informed TKDin, to continue to do so. Also I would think, (my own view), that it is actually required, as from those who are given much, much is expected. In the realm of the martial arts, it really does come with the territory, don't you think?
Please Sir, continue to share, readers are better for it. This is the way of the martial arts!