I've considered cross training at various times in the past. And I've frequently worked with people from other styles, sharing and comparing approaches. But, for me, it boils down to a simple decision. I still have years worth of material from my teacher that I've barely touched. I don't have time to devote to something else!Kensai said:
Kung Fu?
- Thread starter wowzer77
- Start date
OP
OP
wowzer77
Yellow Belt
When I said I didn't want to take formal classes, I meant I didn't want to take formal JKD classes, just incase that was a mixup. Also, I don't want to end up with the same results as bruce lee. Bruce's JKD was his interperatation of his art, I guess you could say. I actually expect to end up different. The thing about northern styles focusing on kicks is just something I've heard from multiple sources...and the reason I want something like that is because Wing Chun will teach me speed with my hands and low kicks, I know some basic ground fighting and getting out of certain situations (mug, knife attack, ect.) along with some korean kicking and punching techniques, so along with all this I would like to know some high acrobatic kicks and techniques to balance it all out. I know this wont be achievable for a pretty long time, but I have a long time to do it all...
Brother John
Senior Master
You DO know that the term "Kung-Fu" is not an "art" but a catagory....Right??
Kung-Fu is a catagory of martial arts systems that stem from China.
Wing Chun IS a system OF Kung-Fu. That'd be why people find your statements that Kung-Fu wouldn't be good to study, yet Wing-Chun would be, or is "effective".
That'd be like saying "I'd not buy a Car, but a Sedan would be nice."
There are THOUSANDS of systems of Kung-Fu.....
so your generalization just won't work.
Just something to think about.
Welcome to Martial Talk though.
It's a great place to post questions and bounce your ideas off of lots of well trained and experienced people.
Your Brother
John
Kung-Fu is a catagory of martial arts systems that stem from China.
Wing Chun IS a system OF Kung-Fu. That'd be why people find your statements that Kung-Fu wouldn't be good to study, yet Wing-Chun would be, or is "effective".
That'd be like saying "I'd not buy a Car, but a Sedan would be nice."
There are THOUSANDS of systems of Kung-Fu.....
so your generalization just won't work.
Just something to think about.
Welcome to Martial Talk though.
It's a great place to post questions and bounce your ideas off of lots of well trained and experienced people.
Your Brother
John
Take your time. Make up your mind to learn one style in its entirety - which should take at least 15 years or so - and then if you feel like moving on, fine.
Learning real martial arts (as opposed to what passes for martial arts in Hollywood) is like making tea. It takes time and patience...
Learning real martial arts (as opposed to what passes for martial arts in Hollywood) is like making tea. It takes time and patience...
OP
OP
wowzer77
Yellow Belt
First of all brother john, of course I know that there are a great many kung fu styles, and I know wing chun is one. And I will be devoting myself to only one style for a long time untill I learn most/all of it..but I will also be practicing the things I've learned in other martial arts as well. In my opinion, if you plan on studying and learning martial arts for self defence purposes, you should always take into account that whoever is attacking you is going to do whatever they want. Me and my brother sometimes "shadow box" in my basement, where we both show each other what we would do in a real fight and test it out on eachother lightly. Now I've learned to ways to block the same punch, and I chose one way is better for me. I want to be able to do the same thing when choosing all my techniques...maybe a certain kick I learned in one style will work better for a situation than the kick someone would use if they only knew the other style I was studying. This is why I want to know more than just one style in the long run..so I can study each viewpoint, each way of looking at self defence (that I've learned anyway), and use what I find to be most effective. I won't be predictable or bound, and I will have less limitations. Should be fun.
But, until you've taken the time to learn the fundamentals well, how will you know that what you think is better really is?wowzer77 said:
It takes a long time, and lots of dedicated repitition to really internalize the principles of a martial art. Until you do that -- you can't really add something to it. Imagine grafting a full grown oak branch onto a sapling; it's not going to work well, is it?
I'm not suggesting that you don't learn other styles -- but I am suggesting that BEFORE you decide that you can improve your base style, you need to be sure that you really are improving it!
OP
OP
wowzer77
Yellow Belt
That is a good point, don't fix it if it ain't broke...I don't plan to improve any style however, what I meant is that in a real life scenario, I might find that a kick from one style would work better than a kick from the first style I learned...so in the end, I don't plan on having anything modified in any way. I would just use things from all the styles I learned and mix them to make a fight go better..someone who knows many styles isn't going to look at his opponent and decide which one style to use; he might use kicks learned from muay thai, and then come in close with wing chun, or use any of the many different techniques he has learned throughout his life. I want to be like that I guess, but then (if I feel it is possible at the time) maybe meld them together a bit to make my system a little more concrete.
funnytiger
Blue Belt
I just wanted to point out that this is also a generalization. I wouldn't say any form of kung fu is more less a "performance" then TKD or Karate. I understand the purpose of the post and other than that statement I agree with all those who shared the same thought process.
There is so many styles of kung fu you (at this point in your MA career) can't even really say that you are going to take one kick from this style in this situation because it is better suited for it. One style may have a plethora (i just wanted to say, 'plethora') of ways to defend or attack with a kick. Once you have found a style of kung fu (or any MA) stick with it. Learn it. And THEN buid upon it.
But that's me just regurgitating what everyone else has said...:uhyeah:
-ft
profesormental
Brown Belt
Greetings!
This is really important.
The group of people which you will be taking classes with... your companions and trainer... are very important, even more so than the "style" that you wiill be practicing in!
If you go to Wing Chun training, for example... after getting a feel and trust with your fellows and a comfortable foundation,
you can explore the things others are doing at other studios and otehr training methods and try it with them...
From what you write, I am reminded of what Sun Tzu said...
(paraphrasing ) "The General that goes to battle knowing himself and his enemy, will tread surely and victory will be easy.
The general that knows himself, but not his enemy, may tread with care to gain victory.
The General that doen not know himself or his enemy treads dangeroulsy and victory will be hard fought."
If this is your aim with your cross training, that is good. Also, reading up on the materials of Bruce Lee and the philosophical concepts behind them should clear stuff up.
If you train in one style, it is just the beggining of the road... the starting point. From there you can travel to other places and learn, yet they will all be referenced and associated to your initial experience.
Wing Chun is a very good starting point, and from there you can add to it's framework any other concept or training that you deem necessary for your personal taste.
Yet what is most important is that you have a supportive group of friends and fellows that help you along and have fun with you as to make your learning easier.
I'm happy that I've met some of the craziest and barbaric people that love to train with me and enjoy looking for their edge and occasionally going over it to see what exists further!
That is the most important thing...
Sicnerely,
Juan M. Mercado
The nice sophisticated guy from the beaches of Puerto Rico that's recovering from burnout, knee, hip and back injuries... only to play rough again with barbarians and enjoy every second of it!
This is really important.
The group of people which you will be taking classes with... your companions and trainer... are very important, even more so than the "style" that you wiill be practicing in!
If you go to Wing Chun training, for example... after getting a feel and trust with your fellows and a comfortable foundation,
you can explore the things others are doing at other studios and otehr training methods and try it with them...
From what you write, I am reminded of what Sun Tzu said...
(paraphrasing ) "The General that goes to battle knowing himself and his enemy, will tread surely and victory will be easy.
The general that knows himself, but not his enemy, may tread with care to gain victory.
The General that doen not know himself or his enemy treads dangeroulsy and victory will be hard fought."
If this is your aim with your cross training, that is good. Also, reading up on the materials of Bruce Lee and the philosophical concepts behind them should clear stuff up.
If you train in one style, it is just the beggining of the road... the starting point. From there you can travel to other places and learn, yet they will all be referenced and associated to your initial experience.
Wing Chun is a very good starting point, and from there you can add to it's framework any other concept or training that you deem necessary for your personal taste.
Yet what is most important is that you have a supportive group of friends and fellows that help you along and have fun with you as to make your learning easier.
I'm happy that I've met some of the craziest and barbaric people that love to train with me and enjoy looking for their edge and occasionally going over it to see what exists further!
That is the most important thing...
Sicnerely,
Juan M. Mercado
The nice sophisticated guy from the beaches of Puerto Rico that's recovering from burnout, knee, hip and back injuries... only to play rough again with barbarians and enjoy every second of it!
Kensai
Black Belt
funnytiger said:
Actually, I think that was directed at me, there IS a lot of theatrics in modern wushu/kung fu styles, I was making a point that a lot of people who perhaps look at TKD, or karate don't see that, and MAY be put off by such "theatrics/gymnastics". My other point was that that wasn't the be all and end all of kung fu. That was in direct response to another post made by bladenosh about kung fu having wonderful traditions, and being very beautiful to watch, (I've also heard this from Aikido practitioners) so was countering that point. I stand by what I said. :asian:
funnytiger
Blue Belt
Kensai said:
When I look at TKD or Karate tournaments and I see all the shouting and the flipping and rolling around I think of THAT as being theatrical. As many kung fu tournaments as I've been to I could count on one hand how many times I've seen someone who practices KUNG FU as opposed to to modern WUSHU do any kind of theatrical movements. REAL kung fu at very LITTLE gymnastics in it sir, hence why I pointed it out as being a generalization.
With respect to your opinion, I too stand by what I said.
- ft
mantis
Master Black Belt
you know this is funny because when i go to tournies i look for kung fu guys and hardly ever see them. All i can watch is like 50 wushu people doing the same exact form over and over and over. my question is this though, in tournaments how can you judge a traditional kung fu form? the judges have probably not even seen the form before!funnytiger said:
funnytiger
Blue Belt
mantis said:
I'm not sure I understand the question... I'm not sure what kung fu tournaments you go to so I can't really speak about that. I guess what's even funnier is that at the tournaments I go to they usually have a special category for JUST wushu and keep it seperate from the traditional kung fu. Maybe I go to more traditionaly kung fu tournaments? All of the judges practice/teach some sort of traditionaly kung fu and are assigned to judge divisions accordingly.
What tournies have you been to?
- ft
Kensai
Black Belt
funnytiger said:
Shouting and flipping? Having done karate many years back, there was never any shouting and flipping in what I did/saw. My partner studied karate for 4 or 5 years, and also never encountered "shouting and flipping". Strange analogy. Besides, we're also not talking about what you see as theatrical, but about how people that come to any given kung fu class and their possible perception of what they encounter. I've had Aikido guys that I train with say, quote unquote "kung fu, oh some of those kung fu styles are beautiful"... Hmmm... Wonder what they'd been watching? The kind of material below perhaps?
What about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUnooJWWEsw&search=kung%20fu%20forms That's not theatrics? I think the give-away is in the title where it says, "performed by Lin..."That's what I'm talking about. It's difficult to differentiate between "real" kung fu, and "wushu", especially for a beginner. For someone that may not know much about the art, I again stand by what I said about being potentially put off by watching this, perhaps thinking it's more about performance than effectiveness. I wasn't questioning the effectiveness of kung fu, as a WC practitioner, I'm aware of it's effectiveness. So, perhaps we should agree to disagree here.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, To be a good in one style takes a life time....when you become good...there is no other reason to learn something else (other than to expand your knowledge).
Cross training is always better than none! One can always learn new things even from white belts.
Most KEMPO schools have come from many other styles blended in it..therefore learning Kempo is good.
This is my recommendation...check out a few Kempo schools (Many are different yet teaches the same concepts)
Everyone adapts their arts's to fit them...What works for me may not work for you...yet we both learn the same things.
Learning from a good teacher....will last a lifetime...Become a master of ONE.
Don't be a "Jack of all trades and master of none"
When you see a doctor? For a cold..a General practice one is OK. for a serious illness....you will perfer a specialize one.
It is the person (YOU) who make each art works....ONE day you will understand this...it is not art/type of kung-fu/or the many different arts..that will make you better....it is hard work.practice and practice...and what fits you.....Each person has their own style of fighting ,even with 100 people in the same class do not fight the same way on the street....You make the techniques fit you..and use what works for you.
Spinning back fist works for me because I make it work for me...and when the time is right...."Pow" ..for others in my class...doesn't work for them..Each person has their own style..within a style......Aloha
Hope this helps!
Cross training is always better than none! One can always learn new things even from white belts.
Most KEMPO schools have come from many other styles blended in it..therefore learning Kempo is good.
This is my recommendation...check out a few Kempo schools (Many are different yet teaches the same concepts)
Everyone adapts their arts's to fit them...What works for me may not work for you...yet we both learn the same things.
Learning from a good teacher....will last a lifetime...Become a master of ONE.
Don't be a "Jack of all trades and master of none"
When you see a doctor? For a cold..a General practice one is OK. for a serious illness....you will perfer a specialize one.
It is the person (YOU) who make each art works....ONE day you will understand this...it is not art/type of kung-fu/or the many different arts..that will make you better....it is hard work.practice and practice...and what fits you.....Each person has their own style of fighting ,even with 100 people in the same class do not fight the same way on the street....You make the techniques fit you..and use what works for you.
Spinning back fist works for me because I make it work for me...and when the time is right...."Pow" ..for others in my class...doesn't work for them..Each person has their own style..within a style......Aloha
Hope this helps!
funnytiger
Blue Belt
Kensai said:
I could just as easily mention that a lot of the guys that I take kung fu with are ex-tkd/karate guys who have actually SAID that tkd/karate was full of a bunch of silly flips and exaggerated theatrics.
With that being said you can not dictate to me the perceptions of others as a valid argument, no more than what I said above is any kind of supporting evidence of my claim. We are on the Internet so I could say my grandmother was a black belt in TKD and you really couldn't say that I was BSing you.
I know you practice WC and I also know you haven't been practicing for very long. I assume that your experience with TCMA is limited based on some of your comments and posts. I'm not ragging on you, I'm just making an observation.
Your clip says two things to me. 1. I have seen a lot of TKD and Karate performances that were A LOT flashier than that. 2. Our definitions of theatrical are COMPLETELY different.
So yes, agree to disagree and let's leave it at that. No hard feelings.
::salute::
- ft
funnytiger
Blue Belt
Kensai said:Lol, never. Mine's a pint of Guinness please my good sir.
Ooh, by the way, your site looks interesting, checked it out last night.
I'll have a SoCo and lime!
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Yes I know I'm late to this and probably posting inappropriately at this point but I am not getting a pint of Guinness or a SoCo and lime out of this. (For future reference I prefer Guinness - and it does not need to be cold either)
First
I believe wowser77 is looking to study multiple styles in order to combine them into something that works for wowzer77.
That is commendable but difficult, it is hard to understand any art well enough as it applies to you without extensive study of said art.
If you want a style that focuses on kicks to understand kicking train savate. If you want to focus on punching train boxing and if you want some groundwork try wrestling. CMA, JMA, MMA, TMA are not necessary there is much more to the study of Martial Arts than kicking, punching and takedowns.
Bruce Lee studied a lot of things to come up with Jeet Kun Do, boxing, Wing Chun, Thai kick boxing, etc. But he did have a solid understanding of Wing Chun and fighting before doing this.
Second
Northern styles and high kicks, some yes, some no. Southern Styles and high kicks, some yes some no.
Wing Chun does train hands and low kicks very well and you can study Wing Chun for a year and have some understanding, look not to bad and be able to defend yourself. But you still do not have a good understanding of Wing Chun.
First
I believe wowser77 is looking to study multiple styles in order to combine them into something that works for wowzer77.
That is commendable but difficult, it is hard to understand any art well enough as it applies to you without extensive study of said art.
If you want a style that focuses on kicks to understand kicking train savate. If you want to focus on punching train boxing and if you want some groundwork try wrestling. CMA, JMA, MMA, TMA are not necessary there is much more to the study of Martial Arts than kicking, punching and takedowns.
Bruce Lee studied a lot of things to come up with Jeet Kun Do, boxing, Wing Chun, Thai kick boxing, etc. But he did have a solid understanding of Wing Chun and fighting before doing this.
Second
Northern styles and high kicks, some yes, some no. Southern Styles and high kicks, some yes some no.
Wing Chun does train hands and low kicks very well and you can study Wing Chun for a year and have some understanding, look not to bad and be able to defend yourself. But you still do not have a good understanding of Wing Chun.
