Kukkiwon usage of honorifics and grade
- Thread starter Daniel Sullivan
- Start date
I am sure they wouldn't have passed in our school either. Not a chance. And yes, our green belt class shows more precision, control and effort than what I saw in those vids.
I think that if, as Daniel Sullivan suggested, these are students who have had only one year of training and have had to learn all their patterns in that time... I can see how they could appear so discombobulated. But how is this a good idea? Shouldn't a student testing for Black Belt in TKD, regardless of organization, perform at a MUCH higher level than what is shown in those vids? And shouldn't they be given the proper time to do so?
Last edited:
mastercole
Master Black Belt
My feeling is just simply call every black belt holder master or grandmaster, then it looses the false meaning the general American public learned to associate with the term. That places everyone on the same level, removes delusion and we can see a person for what they actually do, not what they are called.
That fact is that when our Korean seniors came over here, they decided what they would do in terms of who is this or that. Example here in my own region there was total confusion in the 70's and 80's as to what was what. Some Korean master's followed together, some did not not, but all of them made up there own system of titles, etc. Do I blame them? NO. No one had yet figured it out! Do I think it is wrong if they still do it? No. I do think it is wrong for them to state it is correct because that is they way they have been doing it for so long.
But now we know, and what we know comes from the teachers of the Korean masters that came here to America, so I will not go by what this instructor says, or that instructor says, I will follow what the Kukkiwon says on the issue, because that comes from the most senior instructors of all. As I said, I like the Kukkiwon's view, and I think it takes away all the confusion that has been around for all these years.
Last edited:
mastercole
Master Black Belt
I think every good teacher wants there students to be better and more knowledgeable than they are and I feel accomplished that I have students that have become much better than I ever was. I tell students on a regular basis they should strive to become the best they can. But, I never think in terms of sucks, etc. It's not my nature to think or speak in that way about others or about myself. Is it my nature to get into debates with others? I think that answer is obvious
The reason might not be though.I've met many non-martial arts practitioners who are under the impression that "black belt" is the highest rank and that it is the equivalent of "master". The general public doesn't know about the different degrees of dan rank.
As I said earlier, this is about what I'd expect from students going to class twice a week and practicing some outside of class after a year of training in the entirety of the geub level material.
Ten geub levels, eight taegeuk pumse, plus maybe one basic pumse, all of the individual techniques, sparring, and any one step sparring compressed into one year. This is the result.
They do not consider first degree to be anything more than essentially a beginning rank. While they certainly aren't colored belt masterpieces, they aren't supposed to be.
You are focusing on the belt. It is a different system, so the belt and rank are immaterial. The question is how do they look after four years of training? Which is where you have stated the average should be. One year to ildan, another to yidan, and two more after that to sadan. that means a total of ten forms plus whatever basic form they may be taught prior to learning taegeuks.
So instead of comparing a four year black belt to a one or two year black belt, you need to compare students from each system after four years of training.
Thanks, Daniel. That makes more sense. My instructor tells us that attaining Black Belt is just the beginning... the real training starts after that. Never quite understood that, as I am training my @$$ off right now one year in at green belt! Guess I will get a better perspective once I reach that point.
One thing I don't quite get though... from my understanding, earning a Black Belt has always been held in high regard. You had to work long and hard to get it. When and how did it change to a one year process?
Guess I will get a better perspective once I reach that point.One thing I don't quite get though... from my understanding, earning a Black Belt has always been held in high regard. You had to work long and hard to get it. When and how did it change to a one year process?
I believe students in korea are expected to come to class five days per week (monday-friday), with saturday being tournament day.
From what I have gathered from nearly everyone who has spent time in Korea, the process has pretty much always been that way. Learn ten geubs of basics, get first dan and then either quit or start seriously practicing.
Really my biggest issue in the US with black belts is the way that it has turned into such a money pit. But that is really another subject.
The Moo Duk Kwan started that standard in the 1940s, one year to 1st Dan. The Chung Do Kwan took two years, training five days per week. But under the Chung Do Kwan, you could make it from 8th guep white belt to 7th Dan in I believe 15 years.
Cannot comment on that. Nor will I get into any sort of overly negative critique of the people in the videos. My main point is that they've been training for a year, so to compare them to students who have been training for four based entirely upon the black piece of cloth around their waist is misleading.
It is just a different standard in Korea. 1st Dan/Poom is looked upon as a low grade, the lowest on the scale of 1 through 9. No one in Korea gets excited over it. Outside of Korea though, 1st Dan or "black belt" is a big deal. Many schools teach that your goal is to reach black belt, that you "be" a black belt not just wear one, and so forth. There really is no standardization as to what is or isn't a black belt level. Even at tournaments in the color belt and black belt divisions, you see a huge variance in quality and skill between students of the same rank. In fact, you see a huge variance in quality and skill within the same dojang under the same teacher, just like you see a huge variance in ability for regular school for students of the same age and grade, in the same school.
I used to think this guy is worthy or that person is not, but I stopped thinking like that when I realized that it lead nowhere to be like that. Now I try not to judge other people's teaching or students.
I'm not familiar with the form, but you looked fine to me.
I only have one criticism, which is that the American flag is hung backwards; when hung vertically, the blue field should be to the left.
You always had my respect, but I definitely respect you putting up the video.
Last edited by a moderator:
Now you're getting into what a first dan represents, which varries from organization to organization. In Gracie jiu-jitsu, I've heard that it takes like ten years. It doesn't that long in Judo (not sure what it is, but I know that it isn't ten; probably four or less), so should a judo black belt be considered inferior to a BJJ black belt?
With Kukki taekwondo, there isn't mountains of material to learn after first dan; they don't add any kind of mandatory hoshinsul or kobudo. Essentially, you learn the ten geubs and then continue to refine what you have learned, adding one form every dan grade, which I know is considerably less than some other arts that people have discussed.
Essentially, I agree with you. The part that I bolded is the only part I wanted to comment on. I wouldn't call it a false meaning. The term, 'master' is a part of the western lexicon, and anyone in the trades (a lot of people) know exactly what a master is and how it is different from a journeyman, which is much closer to what a first through third dan is.
Anyone who studies music is also familiar with the term, 'maestro,' and how it differs from being a graduate from college with a music degree, even from a prestidgious school like Julliard. Maestro, and its French equivallent maitre, and such have also been in conistent usage in western fencing.
The term 'master' is also used in other industries, including academia (schoolmaster, headmaster, masters degree, etc.)
And the meanings that I listed above are not false. The term 'master' was part of the English vocabulary long before Asian martial arts were imported to the west, and its primary usage has really never been as the equal if 'mister.' Only the privileged were called 'master' in that way mainly because either they owned the land (and thus employed the household staff; nobody called the butler 'master') or were the children of the master and thus, slated to become 'master' in their own right. In other words, if you had servants, you had people calling you and your kids master. If you were a farm hand, you didn't rate an honorific.
Outside of aristocracy and landed gentry, usage of 'master' has been one that denotes mastery of the craft, and the usage of that word in the trades goes back to the days of artisans. Like several hundred years. The guild system of Europe had a very well defined set of conditions that allowed one to be considered a 'master of the craft' and thus permitted by the guild to open up one's own shop and take on an apprentice. Or when one finally set up his own shop, they were called a master, depending upon where you were and the time period. Until you set up shop, however, you were a journeyman, regardless of how skilled you were.
So I do rather reject the idea that Americans 'don't know what a master is' (not something that you have said, but a notion that I have seen expressed quite a bit over the years) when in actuality, we do. You can blame those who brought the arts to the US for all of the confusion in regard to what constitutes 'master' in the martial arts, starting with whomever's silly idea it was to translate to master words that do not have that direct connotation. When I say 'those who brought the arts to the US,' I don't only mean Asians either; plenty of returning US servicemen brought the arts back to the US.
Firstly, my apologies to all for my flurry of responses; I was away for the weekend, so I am catching up.
Also, there is a difference between 'nice' and 'polite.' Should I choose, I can be polite and say the most cutting and hurtful things simultaneously. Should I choose, I can also be excessively polite to put social distance between myself and another, thus ostracizing them. Many of the things that you say could be couched in a more 'polite' tone and yet still carry the same impact. Perhaps even greater impact, given that people would be unable to dismiss your posts on account of impolite behavior.
Being nice implies other things, though politeness generally accompanies niceness; it's not nice to be impolite.
Based only on our communication, I think that you are a decent guy who cares very much about his students and about the art. Qualities lacking in many teachers.
I'd say rather than being 'not nice,' you are blunt to the point of rudeness and at times, and tend to go over the top.
I think that you have fairly high standard for yourself and your students. One of the byproducts of having high standards is that there is a median range and then there are low standards. It is true in every industry, every art, and every sport. You are in the unique position of being able to both encourage high standards in others and to model those high standards on a personal level.
Also, while you may not have a school at present, you are always a teacher. Let your posts reflect the high standards that you maintain as a master instructor. Anyone who reads your posts should know without you saying a word that you know what you're talking about. I can see it in your posts, even through the incendiary remarks that you make.
I don't really have anything more to say, and only am responding to what you posted publicly. I have always respected you, and my above comments are intended an honest and respectful response.
I wish you well in your continuing education and pursuit of a degree, and hope that you will be back on the mats teaching soon!
You've never offended me, but I do think that in a typed medium, there is little excuse for consistently being antagonistic; given that you obviously know how to be polite, posting on a forum allows you the opportunity to wait on pushing the 'post reply' button and to tailor your comments.
Also, there is a difference between 'nice' and 'polite.' Should I choose, I can be polite and say the most cutting and hurtful things simultaneously. Should I choose, I can also be excessively polite to put social distance between myself and another, thus ostracizing them. Many of the things that you say could be couched in a more 'polite' tone and yet still carry the same impact. Perhaps even greater impact, given that people would be unable to dismiss your posts on account of impolite behavior.
Being nice implies other things, though politeness generally accompanies niceness; it's not nice to be impolite.
Based only on our communication, I think that you are a decent guy who cares very much about his students and about the art. Qualities lacking in many teachers.
I'd say rather than being 'not nice,' you are blunt to the point of rudeness and at times, and tend to go over the top.
I think that the reason that things get focused on you is because of the way that you frequently post. You kind of go on the attack, and when you do that, people instinctively become defensive. Much of the negative things that you point out are things that you bring up repetatively, and often are things that are subjective in nature, such as first dan in less than three years. It's easy enough to simply say that you don't agree with it, why you don't agree with it, and move on without having to bring it up further.
I think that you have fairly high standard for yourself and your students. One of the byproducts of having high standards is that there is a median range and then there are low standards. It is true in every industry, every art, and every sport. You are in the unique position of being able to both encourage high standards in others and to model those high standards on a personal level.
Also, while you may not have a school at present, you are always a teacher. Let your posts reflect the high standards that you maintain as a master instructor. Anyone who reads your posts should know without you saying a word that you know what you're talking about. I can see it in your posts, even through the incendiary remarks that you make.
I don't really have anything more to say, and only am responding to what you posted publicly. I have always respected you, and my above comments are intended an honest and respectful response.
I wish you well in your continuing education and pursuit of a degree, and hope that you will be back on the mats teaching soon!
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Taekkyon, from ancient times, still exist in Korea today. What was left of what could be considered formalized Taekkyon training for competitors at the Danho Festival. These skills were passed to a few men by and elderly man named SONG Duk Ki, who as a young man had natural Taekkyon skills, and, also trained in competitive Taekkyon so he could fair better at Taekkyon competitions, like the one at the Danho Festival, or, random challenges matches. SONG Duk Ki was a common man of basic means and enjoy this rough and tumble activity. His teacher was IM Ho and said to be the same.
These men who learned Taekkyon, supported by the Korean Government Cultural Heritage Department and just recently, UNESCO, have been working hard to preserve the Taekkyon as it was taught to them by SONG Duk Ki. One of these men, who is my teachers, GM LEE Yong Bok has made great strides in research into Taekkyon. He recorded and documented every skill and explanation that SONG Duk Ki gave about Taekkyon. GM Lee has also spent several decades researching all the available records of Korean history, and other Korean traditional practices to find any relations between these cultural assets, so more can be learned.
Each of these men who have learned SONG Duk Ki's Taekkyon has organized the skills into a specific curriculum so that it can be easily learned. GM Lee now has over 500,000 Taekkyon students in Korea. The other men now have over several thousand students learning from them as well. Taekkyon is now starting to slowly spread outside of Korea and is taking root in other regions of the world.
Taekkyon is a pure Korean word, it has no traditional Chinese Character equivalent. It was a word used by the farmers, fishermen and workers in Northern Seoul, especially the Woodae and Araedae areas. It simply used to mean "kicking." In the West, we can see young boys horseplay outside, wrestling around or punching at each other, even in more serious school yard fights, when none have likely had any formal training in either. Western males tend to favor the use of their hands and upper body in this way. Korean boys tend to favor their legs in such horse play as the Korean people have lived for millenia in the very mountainous region of Korea, they developed great agility and strength in use of their legs and have a great confidence in there use.
Western or Korean men will also tend to favor their innate ability in desperate, dangerous situations, applying there skills to self defense on the street, or even in war.
So modern Taekkyon contains the technique of ancient Taekkyon, passed down from SONG Duk Ki - and - from the natural innate tendencies of the Korean people, modern Taekkyon has organized those ancient skills in a highly organized curriculum.
Just a few months ago in November, UNESCO recognized Taekkyon as unique Korean martial art, the first and only martial art in the world to gain such recognition so far.
"Intangible Heritage of Humanity
The formal title is UNESCO Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity. It was adopted during the 29th UNESCO General Assembly in 1997 for the protection of intangible cultural heritage amid the whirlwind of industrialization and globalization. Listings began in 2001. The UNESCO designation is based on the belief that oral and intangible properties of countries and peoples are valuable in their own right and as assets for all humanity. Once a property earns the designation, the country takes on the responsibility to preserve, develop, and pass it on. But nations also receive systematic support from UNESCO.
Taekkyon and Tightrope Walking
Taekkyon is a uniquely Korean martial art centered on the use of a fighterÂ’s bare hands. But players usually use their feet to kick or tackle the opponent to win the match. The key skill is the effective use of the body so physical moves will flow naturally like water. A taekkyon match is all about attacks and there are few defense moves. But the players also take caution not to injure the other party. The sport was banned during JapanÂ’s colonization and was nearly lost forever. Luckily, it was preserved by a handful of people until it was designated as an important intangible cultural property No. 76 by the Korean government in 1983. The next year, the Korea Taekkyon Federation was established and public promotional efforts began. Taekkyon centers have sprung up nationwide and the practice is fast spreading as a traditional martial arts or an everyday sport."
Read more here: http://world.kbs.co.kr/english/news/news_zoom_detail.htm?No=6509
I hope this helps people understand Taekkyon a little bit better
Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio USA
USA Taekkyon Chong Bon Bu Jeonsu Kwanjang (USA Taekkyon Headquarters Founding Director)
These men who learned Taekkyon, supported by the Korean Government Cultural Heritage Department and just recently, UNESCO, have been working hard to preserve the Taekkyon as it was taught to them by SONG Duk Ki. One of these men, who is my teachers, GM LEE Yong Bok has made great strides in research into Taekkyon. He recorded and documented every skill and explanation that SONG Duk Ki gave about Taekkyon. GM Lee has also spent several decades researching all the available records of Korean history, and other Korean traditional practices to find any relations between these cultural assets, so more can be learned.
Each of these men who have learned SONG Duk Ki's Taekkyon has organized the skills into a specific curriculum so that it can be easily learned. GM Lee now has over 500,000 Taekkyon students in Korea. The other men now have over several thousand students learning from them as well. Taekkyon is now starting to slowly spread outside of Korea and is taking root in other regions of the world.
Taekkyon is a pure Korean word, it has no traditional Chinese Character equivalent. It was a word used by the farmers, fishermen and workers in Northern Seoul, especially the Woodae and Araedae areas. It simply used to mean "kicking." In the West, we can see young boys horseplay outside, wrestling around or punching at each other, even in more serious school yard fights, when none have likely had any formal training in either. Western males tend to favor the use of their hands and upper body in this way. Korean boys tend to favor their legs in such horse play as the Korean people have lived for millenia in the very mountainous region of Korea, they developed great agility and strength in use of their legs and have a great confidence in there use.
Western or Korean men will also tend to favor their innate ability in desperate, dangerous situations, applying there skills to self defense on the street, or even in war.
So modern Taekkyon contains the technique of ancient Taekkyon, passed down from SONG Duk Ki - and - from the natural innate tendencies of the Korean people, modern Taekkyon has organized those ancient skills in a highly organized curriculum.
Just a few months ago in November, UNESCO recognized Taekkyon as unique Korean martial art, the first and only martial art in the world to gain such recognition so far.
"Intangible Heritage of Humanity
The formal title is UNESCO Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity. It was adopted during the 29th UNESCO General Assembly in 1997 for the protection of intangible cultural heritage amid the whirlwind of industrialization and globalization. Listings began in 2001. The UNESCO designation is based on the belief that oral and intangible properties of countries and peoples are valuable in their own right and as assets for all humanity. Once a property earns the designation, the country takes on the responsibility to preserve, develop, and pass it on. But nations also receive systematic support from UNESCO.
Taekkyon and Tightrope Walking
Taekkyon is a uniquely Korean martial art centered on the use of a fighterÂ’s bare hands. But players usually use their feet to kick or tackle the opponent to win the match. The key skill is the effective use of the body so physical moves will flow naturally like water. A taekkyon match is all about attacks and there are few defense moves. But the players also take caution not to injure the other party. The sport was banned during JapanÂ’s colonization and was nearly lost forever. Luckily, it was preserved by a handful of people until it was designated as an important intangible cultural property No. 76 by the Korean government in 1983. The next year, the Korea Taekkyon Federation was established and public promotional efforts began. Taekkyon centers have sprung up nationwide and the practice is fast spreading as a traditional martial arts or an everyday sport."
Read more here: http://world.kbs.co.kr/english/news/news_zoom_detail.htm?No=6509
I hope this helps people understand Taekkyon a little bit better
Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio USA
USA Taekkyon Chong Bon Bu Jeonsu Kwanjang (USA Taekkyon Headquarters Founding Director)
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Wow, I have no idea how this post ended up here, it was meant for whole different thread. I assume it's OK to repost it where I intended it to be.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
and i dont believe a word of this
i believe Al Cole believes it
but i think it is a gigantic fairy tale
i believe Al Cole believes it
but i think it is a gigantic fairy tale
