Kukkiwon usage of honorifics and grade

[dancingalone]

Why do you care so much about what the black piece of cloth means. Especially given that nobody seems to be able to agree upon its meaning in first place.

There's a lot of angst bound up in the idea. Rank is a very personal thing. It no doubt means more to some than others. Those that are invested in their belt or rank are naturally bothered when they perceive less serious practitioners nonetheless holding the nominally 'same' rank.

Taekwondoin aren't necessarily savvy about the differences between organizations. It can be a little disconcerting to learn that a BB can be very easy to achieve in some other dojang, in Korea or not with a period as little as one year and possibly with a very sparse amount of material to boot. MT and other similar sites are full of negative comments about mcdojang and programs that pass their students through the ranks easily. IMO, it shouldn't be hard to see the the correlation there. If you don't like short, easy programs, you probably won't like 1 yr. BB programs either.

Additionally, in the US, martial arts teachers often promulgate ethos like hard work, discipline, goal-setting, etc. Schools proudly proclaim 'We are a Black Belt School', indicating that the rank is something high, something desirable. This are good things in my opinion, yet in conflict with the reality that some are promoting students with as little as one year of practice to the rank. (yeah, I know we're back to 'it is a low rank'.)

And then there is that Korean/Asian thing, where wide-eyed westerners often buy into or are sold the myth that because something or someone came from Korea/Asia and therefore their level of skill must be great. This is an irrational perspective yet it is undoubtedly true that some continue to feed it.

 

[miguksaram]

i know they are not ready for Black Belt Rank.

So is it your position that people with physical or mental disabilities who cannot move in the same manner as a non-physically/mentally challenged person, non deserving of a black belt?

 

[Twin Fist]

THREAD DRIFT

start a new topic if you want to discuss this

 

[dancingalone]

So is it your position that people with physical or mental disabilities who cannot move in the same manner as a non-physically/mentally challenged person, non deserving of a black belt?

Call me a jerk, but I'll admit to having mixed feelings about it. I'm OK with some allowances granted for physical disability, but IMO there needs to be some objective measure of achievement, sustainable outside of "he is doing the best he can". I regard it more like a college degree of sorts - there are clear requirements that must be met before the degree is conferred.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

the norm in my group is 4 years, so i guess our standards are higher than the standards in Korea.

No guess work involved; the standards at your school are higher. Time in grade standards at probaby every school in the US are higher, as the shortest programs that I have hears of are about sixteen months.

Every 1 year BB makes your bb worth less daniel. Mine too. Every 5 year old bb makes your bb mean less, and mine too.

My black belt is worth about eighteen dollars.

If you get into Harvard, that means something. It wouldnt mean as much if Forrest Gump got in too.....

I should say so! If Harvard is admitting ficitious people and putting them onto the student roles, I'd say that Harvard has a serious problem!

All kidding aside, does an engineering degree from Phoenix University make the same degree from MIT mean less just because it is a degree in the same subject?

Of course not. It means that one guy has a degree from MIT. Nobody cares what its for.

University degrees really are not a good comparison. There are way fewer universities than MA schools and everyone knows who the prestigious ones are. Nobody knows who the prestigious MA schools are.

If you meet a young lady, and you tell her "I am a BB in TKD" and she responds "so is my 5 year old" your achievement means less. Even if it is just in her eyes

If I'm using it as a pick up line, I'd give her kudos for a good burn.

If it comes up in conversation (not me trying to impress her) and she makes the statement in a condescending or insultory way, then she's simply rude.

If she replies in earnest, I tell her that's great and that her little tyke must have worked very hard.

By the way, that has happened to me, and it ended up being a great conversation.

one guy teaching cheese makes us all look cheesy by association, one ORG putting out cheese makes us all look cheesy

Absolutely, but this isn't about teaching cheese.

and spare me all the "it only means what you think it means anyway" psuedo wisdom. You know exactly what i mean. You may not agree, but i know you know what i am saying.

You know I wasn't going to go there. And yes, I do know what your saying.

I don't necessarily disagree with you so much as I think that you place greater emphasis on it than I do.

As a general rule, I have found that in conversations with independent school owners such as yourself, there is greater tendencies to one extreme or the other; most will either completely marginalize the belt and use it only as a training tool while others exaggerate the belt's importance so as to set their black belts apart from those offered by other schools.

School owners that I have talked to who are associated with an organization tend to view it within the standards of their region, nation, and organization, and in that order.

I think that as long as an instructor has a standard and is consistent in its application, then that is fine.

As for how people view my own belts and what their worth is, I don't think about. Outside of conversations on the internet, what I think my black belt is worth never comes up.

To be clear, I was genuinely curious as to your answer, though I've known you long enough that I could have figured it out. I do appreciate the answer.

 

[miguksaram]

no, i believe there WAS a system of kick fighting in korean's past called Taekkyon. i do not believe that the modern thing called taekkyon is the same art.

i believe the old art died out when the japanese killed all the local fighters and masters. We KNOW that happened.

ONE guy claimed to have survived.

THAT i dont believe

You have to keep in mind a couple of things. First, Japanese did not kill all the fighters. There were plenty of them that went underground and became freedom fighters during the occupation such as Lee, Hoe-young. Regardless, there were very few, if any Taekkyon masters who had a dojang open to public. Many just trained in it but worked in a different profession. You also have to take into consideration that Japanese occupation extended to most of the major populated cities and small rural villages were not as affected as one might think. So again, to have a person with martial art knowledge surviving the occupation is not that far fetched.

 

[miguksaram]

Call me a jerk, but I'll admit to having mixed feelings about it. I'm OK with some allowances granted for physical disability, but IMO there needs to be some objective measure of achievement, sustainable outside of "he is doing the best he can". I regard it more like a college degree of sorts - there are clear requirements that must be met before the degree is conferred.

You are not a jerk for having your standards. I was just curious. But TF is right (wait did I just write that?), this should be its own thread.

 

[dancingalone]

All kidding aside, does an engineering degree from Phoenix University make the same degree from MIT mean less just because it is a degree in the same subject?

Of course not. It means that one guy has a degree from MIT. Nobody cares what its for.

University degrees really are not a good comparison. There are way fewer universities than MA schools and everyone knows who the prestigious ones are. Nobody knows who the prestigious MA schools are.

I don't think the comparison has anything to do with prestige really. It's more about functional differences, such as the difference between a 4 year bachelor of arts vs. a single freshman year. Yet nominally, at the end, you both get the 'same' BB - savvy people know the programs are different, but most will have no idea.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Where do you see this? I see school owners and grandmasters do this, but so do school owners and masters in every other good sized organzation that has a black belt. Why single out the Kukkiwon?

I've seen it come up in numerous discussions over the last year. Some, not all, that are proponents like to point out the number of KKW Dan holders. That is fine. But it is meaningless because it doesn't contain a qualifier. This isn't picking on the KKW, it can apply to any organization that 'seems' to put quantity over quality. I just don't see other TKD organizations speaking to specific membership numbers while at the same time the quality of those at a specific level is being challenged.

The assertions that you make would have more impact if in Korea it ever had been longer than a year or so to first dan.

I would be curious as to what the standard was in previous years.

No offense, but where are you getting this?

From many of the proponents that have stated such in various threads. Yes, a 1st Dan is still a student...and so is a 5th Dan and so is a 10th Dan. Just to different levels. But there is...or rather there should be a difference in quality from one rank to the next. On should be able to determine who is a low-level colored belt student, who is a BB of some level and indeed, who is a 'master' if that term is to be used. Within the context of physical ability of course. I would not suggest someone with an injury or of advanced age that may or may not be able to perform is less than a younger or more active counter-part. Take what I'm saying within the context please.

You are another who is hung up on the "black belt" and not on the time in training.

Not at all. I haven't worn a BB in nearly seven years. I'm 'hung up' on what one can do and/or teach. I'd be just as happy if the Dan/Kyu/Gup system disappeared tomorrow. Within the KKW we have a range of how long it takes to get to a specific level from 1 year to as high as 5 years. Given the video and first-hand level of ability I've seen, one year doesn't seem to be adequate overall.

Why are you so passionate about a black piece of cloth?

You've misunderstood the intend of my comments. I'm passionate about the student getting quality training rather than being rushed to a specific level for the sake of numerical supremacy within an art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't think the comparison has anything to do with prestige really. It's more about functional differences, such as the difference between a 4 year bachelor of arts vs. a single freshman year. Yet nominally, at the end, you both get the 'same' BB - savvy people know the programs are different, but most will have no idea.

Man, those BJJ guys that take ten years must feel like they get the short end of the stick, having to wait almost a decade.

For the record, I find all of the university degree comparasons to be a poor fit for MA grades. And the whole 'I worked X-years for mine an its not fair that he got his in only Y-years' mentality to be sorely misplaced unless you are talking about students who attend the same school. In which case, one guy was either fast tracked or the other kept on longer appropriate.

 

[dancingalone]

Man, those BJJ guys that take ten years must feel like they get the short end of the stick, having to wait almost a decade.

Nah. They think they graduated with a Ph.D.

For the record, I find all of the university degree comparasons to be a poor fit for MA grades. And the whole 'I worked X-years for mine an its not fair that he got his in only Y-years' mentality to be sorely misplaced unless you are talking about students who attend the same school. In which case, one guy was either fast tracked or the other kept on longer appropriate.

It is natural for people to be prideful of something they worked hard for. It is not very spiritually advanced perhaps, but I don't think they are in the 'wrong'. It's all opinion anyway.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've seen it come up in numerous discussions over the last year. Some, not all, that are proponents like to point out the number of KKW Dan holders. That is fine. But it is meaningless because it doesn't contain a qualifier. This isn't picking on the KKW, it can apply to any organization that 'seems' to put quantity over quality. I just don't see other TKD organizations speaking to specific membership numbers while at the same time the quality of those at a specific level is being challenged.

The only time that I recall seeing it come up is in discussions about the size of one organization as compared to another. Since most organizations don't track geub/kyu grades, the quantity of dan holders is the only available statistic.

I would be curious as to what the standard was in previous years.

In Korea, so far as I know, it has always been a year.

From many of the proponents that have stated such in various threads. Yes, a 1st Dan is still a student...and so is a 5th Dan and so is a 10th Dan. Just to different levels. But there is...or rather there should be a difference in quality from one rank to the next. On should be able to determine who is a low-level colored belt student, who is a BB of some level and indeed, who is a 'master' if that term is to be used. Within the context of physical ability of course. I would not suggest someone with an injury or of advanced age that may or may not be able to perform is less than a younger or more active counter-part. Take what I'm saying within the context please.

Honestly, I wasn't really sure what your context was. You hold up first dan (black belt isn't a rank) as being a new level in a way that the geub grades are not, and you imply that a first dan is at a stage beyond student. While I am aware that we remain students for so long as we practice, the Kukkiwon does have instructor ranks (fourth and above) that are distinct from student grades.

Not at all. I haven't worn a BB in nearly seven years. I'm 'hung up' on what one can do and/or teach. I'd be just as happy if the Dan/Kyu/Gup system disappeared tomorrow.

If it did, I'd probably salute.

Within the KKW we have a range of how long it takes to get to a specific level from 1 year to as high as 5 years.

Well, the organization's standard is a year. Those who lengthen the time are doing so on their own, and most likely are doing so because it is the norm for their area rather than the standard of the org.

Given the video and first-hand level of ability I've seen, one year doesn't seem to be adequate overall.

Adequate for what?

You've misunderstood the intend of my comments. I'm passionate about the student getting quality training rather than being rushed to a specific level for the sake of numerical supremacy within an art.

I don't think that it is a question of rushing people; the one year standard in Korea has been the standard from the outset. Whether or not that should change is fodder for another thread.

Really, the point of my OP was the usage of the honorific 'master' for first through fifth dan; most westerners would consider it appropriate for fourth and fifth but not so much for third and not at all for first and second. It was explained by Glenn and Master Cole that they are using it as a more formal version of 'mister' and that the policy is specifically for English speaking nations (i.e. westerners).

Unfortunately that usage really is not in line with western cultural norms, as the word 'master' has a very different connoation, both now, and at the time when it was used as 'mister' (see my post a few pages back).

 

[RottenManners]

the modern taekkyon art all goes back to the ONE guy.

and i dont buy that story.

you can beleive whatever you want, i dont care, i just dont believe it.

The modern Taekkyon does not go back to one man. It goes back to a few Taekkyon masters & their students who were all alive during the Japanese occupation. It is just one man, Sond Duk Ki who was recognised as the best of them. This is documented.

They all trained in secret during the Japanese occupation.

 

[Drakanyst]

wa-ho! hat's off to miguksaram . from what i've seen of your posts, they're pretty on point.

i know i'm jumping onto a really old thread. anyways,

what master cole says regarding kukkiwon testings is mostly accurate! currently, the 1st poom- 4th poom/dan testing level has warm ups, two poomsae and one kyorugi match.

why does that sound so funny? well, let's take a look at the current structure of teaching and belt systems in korea.
first- the average "gym" as we know it teaches people up to high school age at most.
second- poom has four levels! these levels- 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th roll over to dan grade once high school age is reached.
third- teaching taekwondo to these age groups in korea is an all inclusive program! jump rope, misc self defense, dodgeball, any combination will be added to the program. the general school in america or europe will teach taekwondo with hints of other workouts.

that being said, sure- it doesn't look like what a lot of foreigners consider to be black belt. of course not. these kids are taught to work out well, have fun, and make sure they can get their rank requirement and self defense. the hard training starts from middle school on up, and they don't receive black belts until they are ~16 years of age.

try not to judge too hard, there is a lot of societal and cultural differences at work.

"ATC:​

Yes I would have to agree with you. I am KKW certified 3rd Dan and those were some pretty pathetic forms. Very week and sloppy. I am very surprised as we here in the states always hear how everything is better in Korea.

With that said we have had a few students that moved from Korea that joined our dojang and I was surprised at their level of skill. Surprised or should I say disappointed. They did not live up to my expectation knowing that they were from Korea and did not impress at all."

ATC, please try to consider that korean person=/=master. also, in korea if a student is in a training intensive program, they are generally asked to pick a focus. poomsae, kyorugi, or demonstration. that being said, they might have really crappy forms but do other things well! learning about students is fun.

 

[Dirty Dog]

second- poom has four levels! these levels- 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th roll over to dan grade once high school age is reached.

that being said, sure- it doesn't look like what a lot of foreigners consider to be black belt. of course not. these kids are taught to work out well, have fun, and make sure they can get their rank requirement and self defense. the hard training starts from middle school on up, and they don't receive black belts until they are ~16 years of age.

These two statements pretty much sum up the problem with the KKW Poom/Dan system.
If you want to have a baby black belt system with a considerably lower standard of performance and call it a poom rank, I don't think many would have any serious objection. It's a kiddy rank.
It's the automatic roll over to Dan rank that leads to objections.
Require poom holders to pass the adult test, rather than just swapping belts, and many (most?) objections would be gone.

 

[Gnarlie]

These two statements pretty much sum up the problem with the KKW Poom/Dan system.
If you want to have a baby black belt system with a considerably lower standard of performance and call it a poom rank, I don't think many would have any serious objection. It's a kiddy rank.
It's the automatic roll over to Dan rank that leads to objections.
Require poom holders to pass the adult test, rather than just swapping belts, and many (most?) objections would be gone.

They do have to pass the adult test for their next dan grade, though.

 

[Drakanyst]

Gnarlie is correct. to my experience the higher rank dan tests require a lot more. serious taekwondo practitioners at high school and college level face a lot more challenges in their school or program before they even make it to a test. my current university for example, puts us through three hour cardio training sessions with no stop time.

 

[Dirty Dog]

They do have to pass the adult test for their next dan grade, though.

Sure. If they promote again. As I said, it's the auto-rollover to Dan rank that bothers people.