Kuk Sool Sword Form?

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Rudy.

Did you ever get any hints as to what the origin of the material making up the form---or the form itself might be?

Also, so as to not step on any toes, do you have any thoughts on what I am experiencing as a kind of need for secrecy about the origins of this material. This isn't the first time I have run into this and wonder if there is some reason folks play the origin of their material so close to the vest--- maybe some motive that is not readily apparent to those of us looking in from the outside? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Bruce:
As you know, I have no love for GM Suh after my experience; however, I DO love the art and many of its practitioners. Hence, I will only tell the truth as I know it, regardless of my feelings for GM Suh's business practices.

#1. His son, Master Sung Jin Suh is one of the most accomplished martial artists I have ever known. He is the product of both GM Suh and his earlier training with GM Seo.

#2. I have personally seen the books GM Suh sometimes refers to; however, since they were written in Korean or Chinese, I could not ascertain the content other than that the drawings are martial art related.

#3. From disussions with GM Suh, so far the only material he teaches to the outside world is from book one. He had also said he would soon "open" book number two, but he was really concerned that this material would be stolen. I can understand this position, because I now see a lot of Kuk Sool material in schools that teach something else.

#4. I do NOT know from what source these books are, but I have seen some video reproductions of old 8mm film that depict Monks doing some of the forms we know in Kuk Sool; however, they seem to have lots more stuff after WE Kuk Sool practitioners are done with the form. This leads me to believe that there is some truth to the assumption that there may be six forms to each of our weapons and empty hand forms. I have also seen them perform MUCH more material like Rope techniques that we were not (yet???) shown. Perhaps we will never be shown more

For example. Most Kuk Sool people can perform Ssang Bang Hyung one and two, but the monk I saw perform these forms (as it was just one), kept on going and going like the energizer bunny. This leads me to believe that the form indeed has more sections to it. I can also tell you that Kicho hyung now has six parts, where it had only five parts when it was first introduced to us here in North America.

Last, the sword form I watched Sung Jin KJN practice in my dojang (we were VERY good friends and he felt perhaps comfortable enough to trust me watch him without trying to copy him. BTW, I still consider him my friend even though he is forbidden to talk to me) is incredibly complex with some very acrobatic and athletic content. For all intent and purposes, if I did not know he teaches Kuk Sool, I might have thought I was watching a Chinese Hyung. Yet, having some fifty plus years of experience in the arts, I can readily see it is NOT totally Chinese. It had a distinct flavor all of its own.

Well, that is about all I can tell you other than the fact that I do not believe the roots of these things will EVER be opened to the public. IMHO, Korean people are just as guarded today to protect their material as they ever were. It is US who want to know, and they simply don't care that we want to know. To them it is enough that THEY know. We just have to live with that, the same as people have to live with the fact that I will not disclose information that is important to ME. We simply have to abide by the privacy ideas of individuals. Me, I am happy enough to have learned as much as I have over the years

 

[glad2bhere]

No doubt about it, Rudy--- yer one of the good ones!!! Actually I think you said an awful lot with your last paragraph.

"......Well, that is about all I can tell you other than the fact that I do not believe the roots of these things will EVER be opened to the public. IMHO, Korean people are just as guarded today to protect their material as they ever were. It is US who want to know, and they simply don't care that we want to know. To them it is enough that THEY know. We just have to live with that, the same as people have to live with the fact that I will not disclose information that is important to ME. We simply have to abide by the privacy ideas of individuals. Me, I am happy enough to have learned as much as I have over the years....."

Maybe what I am taking for "secrecy" is less of a "secret" and more of a matter of privacy. In my own case I try to get as much information out to folks as I can uncover at any one time. Sometimes this stirs-up a hornets-nest and sometimes I get a "good post" in return. I wonder if I have given the idea that some folks are simply not as self-disclosing-- read also, "private people" ---- and have a right to their privacy. By extension they also have the right to share with others what they will share, when they want to share it and how, yes? I can live with that up until the point someone starts touting what they do as "more genuine" than others and then you have a pee-ing contest about who is the "most genuine".

I also think you did a real service by affirming that what you saw had a "flavor" distinctly its own. I can speak to having seen the same thing but its a hard thing to explain to others. I know you will know what I mean when I say I have seen bits from Japan and China both done in "Korean Fashion" and there is something ther about the way it is executed that is similar yet different from wherever that original material came from, yes?

Now, to turn the page over, we also have a problem. If there is an ultimate KMA "truth" and only one source for that truth we are in trouble, yes? What I see are two issues.

a.) With only a single truth and only a single source for that truth is it not even more important that we know the foundations for that truth. I remember the Christian Church in Europe for centuries was identified as the holder of the "ultimate truth". What followed was an abuse of that power that took the Ages of the Reformation and The Enlightenment to solve. jealously guarding the foundation from prying eyes may safeguard it, but it also denies an alternate interpretation to the elements of the foundation.

b.) Along these lines, even if the foundation material IS revealed, to reveal it only through a particular value system or belief system automatically disposes it towards being taken and used only in a select fashion. So its not just a matter of revealing the foundation material but also of doing so without putting a particular "spin" on it, right?

One solution I might see is to simply identify the source material and leave people to do their own delving. For instance, we know that Tae-eui Wang and Hae Dong figured prominently in Seo's education. However we know little or nothing about these two individuals. Might it not be worthwhile to share information with folks? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

I hear ya Bruce:
As far as MA is concerned, I always try to share as much as I can. My belief is simple. If we don't share, we stand a good chance to lose it. I can still remember when the Kuk Sool Masters (Family) used to fly to my place in one plane. The GM just did not think what would happen to Kuk Sool is that plane went down. Now I believe they travel different ways to ensure longevity of the art. In my case, I have had to speed up teaching and awarding rank to my students just because I am getting on in age. If I don't, and I thank Geoff Booth for pointing that out to me in Jackson a few years back, I will take what my GM taught me to my grave. No much good there, the devil has enough tricks up his sleeve lol.

On the other hand, I can understand guarding the art, because many folks will take it and make something else out of it. Some just hate to see that happen to their art, and they won't take the chance.

While I am at it. I just returned from the Arnold in Ohio, and I could not believe the apathy of people there. I saw icons like Bill Wallace, who presented his seminar just before I did mine, with six people in his class. considering that there were 110,000.00 people there, something is wrong. The man has a lot to share, and he is not getting any younger either. BTW, I had a blast swapping old time stories with him and Jim Harrisson. Both of them still doing great, and that was good to see.

I also saw Kathy Long in the next room with NOBODY in her class. I guess I was fortunate to have a dozen or more in mine. Imagine that... more people in a Hap Ki Do seminar than in the seminars of some of the best around. Master Kang following me had TWO people in his class. I cannot believe this. I used to drive thousands of miles (still do lol) and crawl through broken glass to learn just one more technique or different application. There is a difference in the make up of students these days, and I cannot put my handle on; but, it is NOT good.

Your comments on the Arnold (Paul, or anyone else who was there)???

 

[glad2bhere]

yeah--- I got a comment.

Those folks must have had ROCKS in their heads.

Had I known there was going to be THAT kind of line-up maybe I could have jacked-around with my schedule. "TWO PEOPLE FOR KATHY LONG???" What the heck is wrong with these people?? I don't know, Rudy, but maybe we are casting pearls before swine, ya' know? Can't believe that Bill Wallace will be at it too much longer with that kind of reception. Couldn't blame him for saying "the heck with these guys" and taking his wisdom into retirement with him. If I remember correctly, I think this is what finally turned the page for Don Angier (Yanagi-ryu). That guy isn't getting any younger either and he is going to take a whole lot with him when he goes. Sheesh.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

Hi all,

I also thought it was a disgrace. There were teachers there whom I didn't see on the schedule I downloaded and if I had known were going to be there people would've had to beat me off with a stick.

A couple of them had their workshops cancelled before I even knew about them due to "lack of interest"...........jeesh. We're talking inheiritors of old traditional systems here,not Joe Shmo from Idaho. I think I just answered my own question..."old and traditional".

My early registration was lost in the mix,and when I filled out the on-site registration was informed..."Oh,Sorry...That workshop was cancelled." I think I am still a little shell-shocked from the explanation.

 

[kwanjang]

Bruce:
Kathy had NOBODY. I can't believe it with all those people around. I can see where these folks will just not bother to come anymore with that kind of reception. Six people for Bill Wallace, and two people for GM Kang (we pushed some in there from our HKD group to ease the pain). Incredibly stupid for folks to pass up on the opportunities, or totally poor communication by the organizers... either way, I can imagine these presenters being totally Peed Off.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I'm reading this a little after the fact but I can't help feeling that it was sad, but as good as Bill Walace and Kathy Long are they're no long the Flavor of the month in MA.

I'll bet the BJJ, MMA, Karav Maga, or Combat this & that were packed!

How's the saying go "We all get our 15 minutes of fame"