Krav Maga

[MJS]

I don't know if there is a prob with the disarms as much as it is with the 'sloppiness' (because of the emphasis on agressive/tactical sense over technical refinement) that could lead to amplified problems because of the higher risk factor of the gun. The disarms generally seem to be based on sound principles.

First off, thanks for the reply! Not exactly sure what you mean by sloppy? When I attended the KM seminar in MA., we went over many different techs. All of the inst. present, made sure that we were really doing the tech. and they made the necessary corrections.

I saw one where the gunman is in the mounted position and the defender in the guard pulls the muzzle down into the ground, purposely trying to disfunction the weapon if it fires by jamming in in the deck. It also reduces the chance that any twisting motion will point the gun at the defenders head.

2 different positions. Was the guy sitting on top of the other guy, or was the bottom guy wrapping his legs around the attacker? Was this a KM tech? IMO, I'd rather see a deflection and a counter strike rather than trying to force the gun into the ground.

Over all I would say the the immediate, agressive and spirited response - how ever technically 'sloppy' it may be is a good thing for early phases of training. The early focus of a system as well as individual techniques for self defense should be effectiveness first, then refinement and variation.

I agree. The techs. are definately aggressive.

Mike

 

[MMA Combatives]

Okay, since I stirred up this hornet's nest, I'll expand my critique. First, the 5 DVDs are premium quality. I'm a public relations guru and kudos to the marketing company. From a self defense standpoint, I think KM is a great start to develop basic skills, especially for those who do not have time to devote to more traditional arts. Many of the moves are basic as with many other styles. The DVDs are very choreographed and most often than not, no contact is made, or do they even come close. Many of the self defense techniques result in only one strike or kick, which for anyone who has been in a real tumble or two knows that many combatants simply do not go down unless repeated strikes occur, or strikes to a vulnerable area...bust and break. As for the knife and firearm disarms, it is clearly seen that the blade would cut or slice the defender, or in the case of pistols, the barrel is not brought far enough away from the body. Also, many of the pistols disarms result in grabbing a semi-automatic pistol. For anyone experienced, if the aggressor squeezes the trigger (which is likely to occur in a scrap for the weapon), it will discharge. A semi-auto when fires kicks the upper slide back and one would like be missing a chunk of skin from the fingers and palm. This could cause the defender to pause or experience severe pain, which would give the aggressor more than a second to fire a second, or multiple shots. As for the one of the five DVDs, it focuses on the history and is included in the package price. Although the scenes are choregraphed, the instruction is basically sound. If you're looking for this sort of product...enjoy. For me, I may use a few of the techniques in training, but personally, I would buy one of many different DVDs or Videos...jujitsu, knife fighting, street fighting techniques, arnis, etc. If you're going to cut to the chase, do it wisely.

 

[MMA Combatives]

One thing to add. I keep reading about that KM is a military art...yada...yada..yada. No dispute about its orgination, espeically being a retired Army infantry guy who also spent time in the Middle East. I've spent days and weeks in the combatives pit as a Ranger student and a member of the 2d Ranger Battalion where injuries frequently occurred. In the homeland it still may be taught rough and ready to the military, but what is on the DVDs is a far cry from any current true military instruction. If you're studying KM, don't kid yourself into thinking that you're a military-trained hand to hand combat expert. This dilussion will likely get you hurt in the real world.

 

[MJS]

MMA Combatives-

Thanks for the reply. Just curious though if you've seen the FIGHT series that is also on the market. To me, its very similar to KM, though it may be a slight off shoot. Have you seen these tapes? In your opinion, how do those gun/knife disarms differ from the KM disarms??

Mike

 

[MJS]

The DVDs are very choreographed and most often than not, no contact is made, or do they even come close.

Yes, these are the same ones that I also have. One thing to remember though, is that unless they are wearing protective gear, its going to be difficult to go all out.

Many of the self defense techniques result in only one strike or kick, which for anyone who has been in a real tumble or two knows that many combatants simply do not go down unless repeated strikes occur, or strikes to a vulnerable area...bust and break.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that they did in fact do more than one strike during the showing of the techs. It appears to me, that there really isnt a set order of counterstrikes to do. Pretty much seems like you have the choice to do whatever you'd like. One should assume that they can continue to strike, but for the purpose of the tape and time, the number of strikes was most likely limited.

As for the knife and firearm disarms, it is clearly seen that the blade would cut or slice the defender

Again, I can only think that they are assuming that the simultaneous block/strike, would be enough to stun the attacker, while they then control the arm and then continue to strike.

,

or in the case of pistols, the barrel is not brought far enough away from the body. Also, many of the pistols disarms result in grabbing a semi-automatic pistol. For anyone experienced, if the aggressor squeezes the trigger (which is likely to occur in a scrap for the weapon), it will discharge. A semi-auto when fires kicks the upper slide back and one would like be missing a chunk of skin from the fingers and palm. This could cause the defender to pause or experience severe pain, which would give the aggressor more than a second to fire a second, or multiple shots.

Good point here, and that is something that I've thought about as well. Again, I think that they are going on the assumption that by grabbing the slide, it'll prevent the weapon from being fired.

Are there any other gun/knife tapes that you've seen that offer a better/different approach than the KM? I know that you've mentioned the FIGHT series.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

First off, thanks for the reply! Not exactly sure what you mean by sloppy? When I attended the KM seminar in MA., we went over many different techs. All of the inst. present, made sure that we were really doing the tech. and they made the necessary corrections.



2 different positions. Was the guy sitting on top of the other guy, or was the bottom guy wrapping his legs around the attacker? Was this a KM tech? IMO, I'd rather see a deflection and a counter strike rather than trying to force the gun into the ground.



I agree. The techs. are definately aggressive.

Mike

By "sloppy" I mean that the technical/mechanical proficiency phase of KM training is allotted much less time in overall training than the tactical aspects, so practitioners will look sloppy technically relative to their counterparts in other arts who have trained for the same approximate time. That said, I would rather, in a real world situation, have to deal with someone who is technically proficient but lacks real agressive intensity through lack of training than the KM 'sloppy' person who will try and take your head off. Not a criticism like "they suck at technique" but an observation that they don't focus on technique early on as much as making it work. Technical skill is developed progressively along with the tactical.

I am not totally up on the grappling terms so I may have messed it up but here it goes:

BG on top, sitting on victim. Victim on his/her back w/two hands on pistol. Victim controls weapon and drives it muzzle first into the dirt on either side of his/her head to force an off balance of the bad guy and to take the gun off line. It also promotes a malfunction because of the clogging/jamming of the muzzle w/o angling it toward the victims head by mistake. Follow up techniques will depend on the situation, but the desired 'technical' outcome is to roll the BG onto his back - to the side that you have already started his/her downward momentum and strip the weapon and either toss it or use it. In the process there is lots of hitting and stuff from the dirty school mixed in.

I still say that the general tone of KM training, at least in my contact with it, is the early emphasis on assertive and agressive techincal application/tactical response.

 

[MJS]

By "sloppy" I mean that the technical/mechanical proficiency phase of KM training is allotted much less time in overall training than the tactical aspects, so practitioners will look sloppy technically relative to their counterparts in other arts who have trained for the same approximate time. That said, I would rather, in a real world situation, have to deal with someone who is technically proficient but lacks real agressive intensity through lack of training than the KM 'sloppy' person who will try and take your head off. Not a criticism like "they suck at technique" but an observation that they don't focus on technique early on as much as making it work. Technical skill is developed progressively along with the tactical.[/quote[

First off, thank you for replying and for the clarification on this! I didnt think that you were saying that they sucked, but now that I have another view point, I see what you're saying. I've actually seen a few documentary clips on KM that were on TV. I see what you're saying with that 'sloppy' look to them. Part of this is probably due to the fact that they are not concentrating as much on things such as stances, as you'd see in an art such as Kenpo. The techs. that were demonstrated were very aggressive.

I am not totally up on the grappling terms so I may have messed it up but here it goes:

BG on top, sitting on victim. Victim on his/her back w/two hands on pistol. Victim controls weapon and drives it muzzle first into the dirt on either side of his/her head to force an off balance of the bad guy and to take the gun off line. It also promotes a malfunction because of the clogging/jamming of the muzzle w/o angling it toward the victims head by mistake. Follow up techniques will depend on the situation, but the desired 'technical' outcome is to roll the BG onto his back - to the side that you have already started his/her downward momentum and strip the weapon and either toss it or use it. In the process there is lots of hitting and stuff from the dirty school mixed in.

Yup, thats the mount position that you're referring to here! This may work, providing that the bottom person doesnt spend too much time dealing with the gun, before they fire off a counter strike. Also, not sure how much they'll be able to turn, due to the fact that someone is on top of them, as well as having the ground underneath them.

Mike

 

[MMA Combatives]

MJS, the only FIGHT videos I've seen are the two on the web. He does make a valid point about directing the counterattack upward versus to the side so that an innocent bystander isn't shot. I debated several days as to which set of videos to purchase...KM or FIGHT...and opted for the KM. Not sure if it is the best choice, especially since I am familiar with most of the content already. I would like to hear someone's perspective on FIGHT, especially if they are an experienced martial artist (I know my slugline says white belt, but I left that in the dojo about 10 years back).

 

[MJS]

MJS, the only FIGHT videos I've seen are the two on the web. He does make a valid point about directing the counterattack upward versus to the side so that an innocent bystander isn't shot. I debated several days as to which set of videos to purchase...KM or FIGHT...and opted for the KM. Not sure if it is the best choice, especially since I am familiar with most of the content already. I would like to hear someone's perspective on FIGHT, especially if they are an experienced martial artist (I know my slugline says white belt, but I left that in the dojo about 10 years back).

Thanks for the reply. I've seen that same disarm also done in KM. I know that the FIGHT tapes are an off shoot of KM, but it'd be interesting to see exactly how different they really are.

Mike

 

[Vitor]

Is there a Krav Maga section here?

Krav Maga, in my modest opinion, the best self-defense system in the world.

• Counterattacking as soon as possible (or attacking preemptively).
• Targeting attacks to the body’s most vulnerable points.
• Maximum effectiveness and efficiency.
• Maintaining awareness of surroundings.
  

Vitor Ferreira
Former Special Forces
Montreal Krav Maga Chief Instructor
mkmcanada.com